Screw the Banks and Investment Firms

[littleflower]

Have you ever considered that the MAJORITY of people in China might be HAPPY?

Singapor is also a dictatorship of sorts, and they have made great social strides and their people are all happy--as long as they don't get caught chewing gum in public. In fact, they think we are missing the boat by letting all of our citizens get away with all that they do--sort of like mis-behaved children. (Hmmm....that's interesting).

Listen, we don't have a corner on democracy, and many countries don't want it, contrary to popular belief. (at least they don't want 'american style' democracy) Note that one of the recent elections we interfered with (free and fair too) and the people elected HAMAS!!!!!! Hmmm....now that was certainly something we weren't expecting, now were we?

JK

lol ... JK ... are you suggesting that the U.S. population would be happier with a chinese style government? i honestly don't know what your point is...

jeez, you are gonna fight me no matter what i write to-day ... i think it's almost time for another pillow fight ...

[Elderberry]

lol ... JK ... are you suggesting that the U.S. population would be happier with a chinese style government? i honestly don't know what your point is...

jeez, you are gonna fight me no matter what i write to-day ... i think it's almost time for another pillow fight ...

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I am just saying that our's is not the only way and americans are not the only people that are happy and have pride in their country--democratic or not.

JK

[littleflower]

of course i agree with you... i don't remember suggesting otherwise ...

there is great vibrancy in china right now ... many improvements have been made for many people ... i am particularly interested in the art scene, which has great energy and is producing some very interesting stuff.

but there is also a lot that is very bad, particularly in the treatment of ethnic minorities... not just tibetans, either.

and i just do not think an 80% approval rating for an oppressive government is necessarily reliable...

[can't sit still]

As long as we're cruising along off-topic, I'll throw in a few more things. The authoritarian regimes permit less freedom. They have far less crime. Is the tradeoff worth it? 1% of American adults are incarcerated. Ignoring victimless crimes for the moment, do we have too much freedom? Here's where the flak flies. Do we need a criminal justice system that is much harsher? Our system seems to encourage white-collar crime by making the penalties for such crimes barely a slap on the hand. Identity theft comes to mind. White collar crime costs society 10 times what street crime costs.

We're tough on crimes that cause personal damage but, ultra lenient on crimes of theft regardless of the damage. Do we need to put some real teeth into penalties for business crime? How long are we going to pay to incarcerate 1% of our adult population. The war on drugs has proved to be useless to society. If we legalize cannabis indica/sativa and cocaine and prostitution, how much would it cut down on the prison population?

The US Comptroller General from the General Accounting Office said that an economic collapse is inevitable. How is that going to affect crime,,, funding for our prison system?

[lurker]

I am just saying that our's is not the only way

I think it might be--at least it might be the necessary first step towards a world of sovereign individual.

I think we should spend more time exporting the Constitution itself than any hare-brained other democracy ideas---

"Hey! Want massive success?! Extensive Personal freedom?! The ability to grow, Grow, GROW?!

Well try US Constitution!

Go from Colonial cesspool to World Power in LESS THAN 200 YEARS!

Sure, authoritarian regimes have lots of tasty power--but who wants to spend their lives looking over their shoulder for the next coup?!

Get rid of messy purges! Clear out those unwanted entrenched dictators!

Get US CONSTITUTION!

Order now and get the BILL OF RIGHTS absolutely FREE!"

[Elderberry]

I think it might be--at least it might be the necessary first step towards a world of sovereign individual.

There are many that would disagree with you.

Did you ever serve in the military?

JK

[lurker]

They wouldn't take me--I've got a bum eye.

I still look at that document and think it's a recipe for success.

[Elderberry]

I still look at that document and think it's a recipe for success.

Yes, you and many people do, as do I--for THIS country. Just as many others do not--for their country. Which is why exporting it has never worked very well.

If you have ever cooked, you would know how easy it is to fuck up a good recipe.

JK

[littleflower]

Yes, you and many people do, as do I--for THIS country. Just as many others do not--for their country. Which is why exporting it has never worked very well. JK

never? what about germany, japan, south korea? they may not use our exact document, but it seems to me that we did help them work out their own ...

also, if you look at migration tables, guess where most people want to go?

[World Power Foundation]

Lysander Spooner says your document has No Authority.

[littleflower]

!!!!!! i am delighted to live in a country that allows unlimited access to such documents! isn't it wonderful that such warnings still seem relevant after 140 years ...

[lurker]

If you have ever cooked, you would know how easy it is to fuck up a good recipe.

I've actually cooked in a five star restaurant--and I know that you can't fuck a recipe up if you follow it. It's when you start screwing around that things follow suit.

And of course it would work well for people from other countries. I know this, as fact. How? Because they're here.

We're MADE of all those other countries.

Oh, you can say that the flavor of those other countries would change--and it would. But consider what would really be changing--all the various oppressions that masquerade as traditions, mores, accepted wisdom and countless other oppressive structures that are engrained in their political systems that have absolutley no use save keeping the same arfistocracies in power in perpetuity. Imagine the abolition of the European class system, the end of the caste, the freeing of the Chinese peasant, the end of inter-tribal warfare, real womens' liberation in Islam

And all you gotta do is stick to that recipe--don't make changes because things are unfamiliar--don't substitute local for what you can get global.

It's infuriatingly simple--except for the innumerable leftist dictator wannabes that see real freedom as an obstacle to the counterfeit they offer.

[Elderberry]

If you have ever cooked, you would know how easy it is to fuck up a good recipe.

I've actually cooked in a five star restaurant--and I know that you can't fuck a recipe up if you follow it. It's when you start screwing around that things follow suit.

And of course it would work well for people from other countries. I know this, as fact. How? Because they're here.

We're MADE of all those other countries.

Oh, you can say that the flavor of those other countries would change--and it would. But consider what would really be changing--all the various oppressions that masquerade as traditions, mores, accepted wisdom and countless other oppressive structures that are engrained in their political systems that have absolutley no use save keeping the same arfistocracies in power in perpetuity. Imagine the abolition of the European class system, the end of the caste, the freeing of the Chinese peasant, the end of inter-tribal warfare, real womens' liberation in Islam

And all you gotta do is stick to that recipe--don't make changes because things are unfamiliar--don't substitute local for what you can get global.

It's infuriatingly simple--except for the innumerable leftist dictator wannabes that see real freedom as an obstacle to the counterfeit they offer.

We couldn't even do that in THIS country--hence amendments. And it is exactly that attitude that has hurt our reputation around the world. We are not the only country on the block and the sooner people realize that the better nation we will become.

And 'following a recipe' is not as easy as you seem to think it is either--5 star restuarant or not--and I've eaten in many a 5 star restuarant.

Instructions like 'cook for 5 minutes on medium heat' leaves lots of room for interpretation--how old is your stove? gas or electric? how high a flame is medium? And I could go on with countless other examples of things that can spoil the easiest of recipies.

JK

[Toolmaker]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/world ... 0riot.html

[can't sit still]

You don't have to go to China to see repression and murder. GOV killed several hundred students in Mexico city,,, 1968. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre
It's all very nice to have a constitution but, if GOV isn't held accountable for it's actions, the law doesn't matter. The US GOV tries to have checks and balances but, it really doesn't have accountability. In many countries, this responsibility is held by the military. Turkey is a good example. GOV has completely run amuck here because nothing can hold it accountable. The voters don't seem to be able to change much.
A constitution is a nice framework if you can include some accountability.
Dan

[lurker]

We couldn't even do that in THIS country--hence amendments.

Nice try, thanks for playing. There'll be a consolation prize on your way out

Amendments are PART of the recipe, with a specific process listed for adding them.

[Elderberry]

We couldn't even do that in THIS country--hence amendments.

Nice try, thanks for playing. There'll be a consolation prize on your way out

Amendments are PART of the recipe, with a specific process listed for adding them.

Thanks, now go wave your flag someplace else.

JK

[lurker]

It's always nice to see someone being a good sport when they get their ass handed to them.

[Ugly Dougly]

It's always nice to see someone being a good sport when they get their ass handed to them.

Did you win an agrument on the internet? I wasn't noticing...

[Elderberry]

It's always nice to see someone being a good sport when they get their ass handed to them.

Did you win an agrument on the internet? I wasn't noticing...

Oh yes, he won.



He's delusional, let's not spoil it for him.
JK

[Ugly Dougly]

Greenspan Concedes to `Flaw' in His Market Ideology

``Yes, I found a flaw,'' Greenspan said in response to grilling from the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

Oh, you noticed it, too, did you Alan?

[littleflower]

Greenspan Concedes to `Flaw' in His Market Ideology

``Yes, I found a flaw,'' Greenspan said in response to grilling from the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

Oh, you noticed it, too, did you Alan?

[Simon of the Playa]

today should be a fucking riot....my guess, they actually HALT trading to prevent a more than 10% dump in the dow....


Fun Fun Friday!

[lurker]

They've stopped futures trading already

[Simon of the Playa]

i know.....whattya think, i just make this shit up as i go along?

[lurker]

Down 250ish last I heard. Not catastrophic, but creepy with that futures freeze.

[Toolmaker]

We couldn't even do that in THIS country--hence amendments.

Nice try, thanks for playing. There'll be a consolation prize on your way out

Amendments are PART of the recipe, with a specific process listed for adding them.

Thanks, now go wave your flag someplace else.

JK

[Ugly Dougly]

I am waiting for the stock market to bottom out before I dump my portfolio.
Buy high and sell low, the easy route to wealth!

[Simon of the Playa]

Broken Securities Industry Still Has $20 Billion to Pay Bonuses

By Christine Harper and Serena Saitto

Oct. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Five straight quarters of losses and a 70 percent slide in its stock this year haven't stopped Merrill Lynch & Co. from allocating about $6.7 billion to pay bonuses.

Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley, both still on track for profitable years, have set aside about $13 billion for bonuses after three quarters, down 28 percent from a year ago. Even some employees at Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., which declared the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. history last month, will get the same bonus they received a year ago.

The worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, a $700 billion taxpayer bailout, public outcry over excessive pay and the demise of three of the biggest securities firms won't deter Wall Street from offering year-end rewards to employees on top of their salaries, compensation experts say.

``Critical producers and critical managers will be retained with the same bonus they had last year,'' said Robert Sloan, head of U.S. financial-services recruiting at Egon Zehnder International, a New York-based executive-search firm. ``The others will see sharp cuts.''

Goldman, the biggest and most profitable Wall Street firm until it opted to become a bank holding company last month, has set aside about $6.85 billion for bonuses, or an average of $210,300 for each employee, down 32 percent from $339,400 a year ago. Morgan Stanley, the second-biggest securities firm until it also converted to a bank, has $6.44 billion for bonuses, or $138,700 per person, down 20 percent from last year. Both firms accrue a fixed percentage of their revenue for compensation, so the decline in bonus pools matches the drop in revenue.

Merrill's Compensation

The money Merrill has set aside for bonuses equates to an average $110,000 for each of its 60,900 people, up from $108,000 a year ago because more than 3,000 jobs have been cut.

The bonus figures are based on estimates that about 60 percent of the compensation and benefits expenses reported by the companies will be paid in year-end bonuses, as occurred in past years. Average bonuses aren't an indication of how much any employee will receive, since payments range widely from assistants to top traders. Bonuses aren't paid until the end of the fiscal year, so firms could choose to reallocate the funds.

``We are in the process of determining appropriate levels of year-end compensation, and no decisions have been made,'' said Mark Lake, a spokesman at Morgan Stanley. Ed Canaday, a spokesman for Goldman in New York, declined to comment.

Merrill spokeswoman Jessica Oppenheim said the firm's accrued bonuses aren't down as much as those at Goldman and Morgan Stanley because the firm reduced expenses last year, when it also had a loss. Compensation costs are down 18 percent this year, compared with the first nine months of 2006, Merrill's last profitable year.

`Moratorium on Bonuses'

A worldwide economic slowdown, caused in part by the financial industry's losses, and a U.S. Treasury plan to spend $250 billion of taxpayer money buying stakes in banks, have made pay a political issue this year.

``There should be a moratorium on bonuses,'' Barney Frank, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, told reporters last week. ``If nobody gave them, there wouldn't be a competitive aspect.''

In Zurich, protesters blocked UBS AG's private-banking branch on Paradeplatz last week to seek curbs on executive pay after Switzerland's largest bank was forced to ask for government aid.

$145 Billion

``I'm just flabbergasted that the financial community has failed to show any sense of leadership on this issue and doesn't seem to understand how angry people are at them,'' said Nell Minow, editor of Corporate Library, a Portland, Maine-based corporate-governance research firm. ``They are just a bonus away from having the villagers come after them with torches.''

New York-based Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Merrill, Lehman and Bear Stearns Cos. awarded their employees a cumulative $145 billion in bonuses from 2003 through 2007, according to estimates based on company reports. That's more than the annual gross domestic product of the Philippines. Last year the firms paid out a record $39 billion.

At the end of this year, companies may decide against paying the money accrued for bonuses and instead use part of it to cover severance costs, said Rose Marie Orens, a New York-based partner at Mercer, the human resources consulting unit of Marsh & McLennan Cos., who specializes in executive compensation for financial- service companies. Goldman and Morgan Stanley end their fiscal year in November, and Merrill's ends in December.

Lehman Bankruptcy

``Whether what you see is what they're going to pay, you can't tell yet,'' she said. ``It's highly unlikely they'll add to those numbers and more likely they'll bring them down.''

Lehman filed for bankruptcy on Sept. 15. Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns were rescued in emergency sales to Charlotte, North Carolina-based Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase & Co. in New York. Goldman and Morgan Stanley are each receiving $10 billion of capital from the government.

Bank of America is offering Merrill's U.S. brokers bonuses of as much as 100 percent of the revenue they generate to keep them after the deal is complete, people briefed on the plan said last week. Scott Silvestri, a spokesman for Bank of America, declined to comment.

Employees at Lehman Brothers in Europe have been promised by their new owner, Nomura Holdings Inc., that they will receive the same bonus as last year, according to two people familiar with the situation. A Nomura spokesman declined to comment.

Earnings Slump

Share prices and profits have dropped more than bonuses so far. Goldman's profit has fallen 47 percent this year, and the stock is down 53 percent. Morgan Stanley's earnings have tumbled 41 percent, and the shares have shed 69 percent of their value.

``Performances have certainly not been what investors would expect,'' said Daniel Moynihan, a principal at Compensation Resources Inc., a 25-year-old company in Upper Saddle River, New Jersey that advises companies on pay practices. Still, ``smart companies are going to reward those people who performed well,'' he said.

Even without bonuses, Wall Street's traders and bankers typically receive salaries that range from $80,000 to $600,000 a year. That compares with the mean annual wage for the average U.S. employee of about $40,690 and a mean for CEOs of $151,370, according to a May 2007 Bureau of Labor Statistics report.

For many on Wall Street, those salaries aren't enough. Top employees expect to receive bonuses that can be in the millions or tens of millions of dollars. Lloyd Blankfein, 54, Goldman's chief executive officer, was awarded a $67.9 million bonus last year on top of his $600,000 salary.

`Obscene' Mindset

At Merrill Lynch, CEO John Thain, 53, received a $15 million bonus when he was hired in December. Peter Kraus, 56, who is leaving after joining Merrill last month as strategy head, may be eligible to collect on a pay package originally valued at $95 million, including stock and options that replaced a Goldman stake he had to forfeit, people familiar with the matter have said.

While some of the most senior executives may choose to forgo their bonuses, like Morgan Stanley CEO John Mack, 63, did last year, others whose compensation isn't disclosed can still take home millions, said Mercer's Orens.

At investment banks, ``the largest compensation doesn't necessarily get paid to the top five executives,'' she said. ``They could be zeros, but there still will be people making $28 million.''

``When you work on Wall Street and you get no bonus, that is a huge shock to the system,'' said Bill Coleman, chief compensation officer at Salary.com, a software provider based in Waltham, Massachusetts. ``Wall Street has created this mindset that most people find obscene, which is that it's hard to live on just half a million dollars a year.''

`No Wall Street'

A Morgan Stanley investment banker in Europe, speaking on the condition that he wouldn't be identified, said his bonus last year was five times his salary and that he would quit if he didn't get a bonus this year, unless his salary was doubled.

``There is no Wall Street without bonuses,'' said Andy Kessler, a former analyst and hedge-fund manager turned author. ``The guys who know how to make money are the ones who are in demand. If you want to keep them, you have to pay them something.''

More than 148,000 financial jobs have been eliminated worldwide since the middle of 2007, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Securities industry jobs in New York fell by 9,000, or 5 percent, through August 2008, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York said in an Oct. 23 report. The mean annual salary of securities-industry employees in 2007 was ``slightly less than $400,000,'' according to the Fed report.

Goldman Cuts

Goldman Sachs plans to cut about 3,200 people, or 10 percent of its employees, a person familiar with the matter said last week. That's a reversal from Sept. 16, when Chief Financial Officer David Viniar said he expected the number of employees to grow this year. Viniar told analysts in March that compensation costs make up two-thirds of the firm's expenses and that year-end bonuses are roughly two-thirds of compensation.

More job reductions are likely, especially at Merrill and Lehman. About 10,000 Merrill employees may lose their jobs, estimates Richard Bove, an analyst at Ladenburg Thalmann & Co. Options Group, a financial services recruitment and consulting firm in New York, estimates that global banking job cuts could reach 200,000, with as many as 50,000 in New York.

``The vast majority of the guys who are being let go are not going to find another job in this environment on the Street,'' said Fred Joseph, the former CEO of Drexel Burnham Lambert Inc. who's now co-head of Morgan Joseph & Co. in New York. ``Middle- market firms like us are growing, but all of us won't hire enough people to dent the 10 percent of people that Goldman's going to let go.''

Hedge Funds

Barclays Plc, which is acquiring Lehman's North American investment banking and capital markets businesses, will cut about 3,000 jobs, Barclays President Robert Diamond said in an Oct. 10 Fortune magazine article. While London-based Barclays has a $2.5 billion pool of money to pay severance and other compensation, it hasn't promised former Lehman employees any bonuses. Seth Martin, a spokesman at Barclays, declined to comment.

Competition for top employees, a standard explanation for paying large bonuses, is less fierce this year. Hedge funds, which have poached top traders from securities firms in the past, may cut as many as 10,000 jobs this year after their biggest losses in more than 20 years, estimates Options Group.

``People don't have a whole lot of alternative places to go to, and it's pretty clear to everybody that they're lucky to have a job,'' said Roy Smith, a former Goldman partner who's now a finance professor at New York University's Stern School of Business. ``It has never been easy to find industries away from finance where you can make millions of dollars a year.''

Who Are Keepers?

Fewer employees means more bonus money will be available for those who remain, said Mercer's Orens.

``You determine these are keepers, and you've got to keep them, so they'll receive a disproportionate amount of the money that remains,'' she said. ``You want to make sure they're not there and angry.''

Joseph, the former Drexel CEO, recalled the time at Shearson Hammill & Co. in 1973 when he had to deliver some good news and some bad news to a young employee.

``The good news is we're firing half your class, but we love you and we want you to stay; the bad news is you're not going to get a bonus, and we're cutting salaries 10 percent,'' he said. ``He stayed and he built a whole career, and he's been a successful investment banker ever since.''

The following table compares compensation and estimated bonuses for the first nine months of 2008 with the first nine months of last year. Bonus estimates are 60 percent of total compensation. Bonus awards are typically determined at the end of the year, with payments made in December or January.

Goldman Morgan Stanley Merrill

Nine Months 2007
Total Compensation $16.92 $13.37 $11.56
(in billions)

Estimated Bonus $10.15 $8.02 $6.94
(in billions)

Employees* 29,905 47,713 64,200

Bonus Per Employee $339,408 $168,067 $108,075

Nine Months 2008
Total Compensation $11.42 $10.73 $11.17
(in billions)

Estimated Bonus $6.85 $6.44 $6.70
(in billions)

Employees* 32,569 46,383 60,900

Bonus Per Employee $210,322 $138,749 $110,049

*Employee numbers are figures in third-quarter earnings reports
and don't reflect any cuts or additions since then.


To contact the reporter on this story:
Christine Harper in New York at
[email protected];
Serena Saitto in New York at
[email protected].

[Simon of the Playa]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... =exclusive