Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

[Elderberry]

maybe i am in denial...
[ed]
... now i see people saying that this very inexperienced man is going to fix everything.

You are in denial. Inexperienced? Just look at the man's resume. He's an intellectual and I'll put my money on his brains any day. (Oh, and then compare the educational background of McCain and Palin--both combined wouldn't stand up to Obama's.

But with how education is disrespected in this country, it's not surprising that these qualifications are overlooked.

Harvard, no less. And he didn't have a rich dad to get him there.

I was in a war too; and trust me, it is no 'test' for the presidency. And frankly, being a POW is even less of a 'test'. Lest we forget that he tried to commit suicide while held captive? And what about the PTSD from the experience?

JK

[littleflower]

lurker, why do i suddenly get the feeling that we are arguing with a 12 year old?

!2 year old?

I think a 12 year old would do better than I up against you 2.

You guys not only are slow to the thinking, you both seem to love being in a state of denial and are in a constant delusional state.

And you both insinuate I am a democrat that is voting for Obama no less.

Rich!

Rich I tell ya.

i rest my case.

[DVD Burner]

When did I say anything she said was wrong?

Bet you cant even answer that.

You didn't get the chance. She didn't say which party you're a member of, DVD. She avoided it--because you'd say she was wrong no matter what she said.

Now, sit down and be quiet and I'll put Bob the Builder on television for you.

I dont watch or own a tv but from the show you just described, it seems you do.
Is that some show you enjoy watching? You seem to know a lot about it.
What's it about?

[DVD Burner]

lurker, why do i suddenly get the feeling that we are arguing with a 12 year old?

!2 year old?

I think a 12 year old would do better than I up against you 2.

You guys not only are slow to the thinking, you both seem to love being in a state of denial and are in a constant delusional state.

And you both insinuate I am a democrat that is voting for Obama no less.

Rich!

Rich I tell ya.

i rest my case.

Did you have a case to begin with?
Amazing how this type will resort to other tactics when she knows what she posts doesn't stand water.

[littleflower]

Littleflower, I read your post with interest. I, too try to read all sides, and I've found a tactic that seems very helpful.

I look for unrelated sources--that is, sources that will provide the information I need without having a political bent.

I started doing this while talking about the AGW issue. I looked for things in which people would be affected. I found stuff like harbormasters--who need to know sea levels simply to keep ships from running aground--or coming in too high on the docks, and fishermen--particularly Arctic fishermen--whose relationship with the ice is more personal.

It can be done with politics as well---one can look at voting records--see what they've DONE rather that what they SAY they've done or will do. The voting records are just there.

You get a better picture that way.

thanks lurker ... i do a certain amount if this, too.

i also like to watch talking head shows that have a senator/congressman from each party, sitting side by side, debating questions ... although they are all ridiculous during election season.

a favorite website is arts and letters daily ... www.aldaily.com ... they find some good essays with interesting POVs... it's also the best place i know for links.

[DVD Burner]

Littleflower and Lurker may be better off and be totally happier at this site.

[Elderberry]

I just heard Obama's "close the deal" speech he gave in Canton. All I can say is WOW! (and that's a good "WOW".) Anybody have a link to the transcript?

JK

[lurker]

Littleflower and Lurker may be better off and be totally happier at this site.

"Go away! You're saying things I don't like!"

Maybe I overestimated the age with Bob the Builder. Maybe Boobahs.....? Any younger than that and it's Mozart tapes over a pregnant belly.

[lurker]

I just heard Obama's "close the deal" speech he gave in Canton. All I can say is WOW! (and that's a good "WOW".) Anybody have a link to the transcript?

But you're sold already. Would someone who's not already sold say 'wow'?

[DVD Burner]

Littleflower and Lurker may be better off and be totally happier at this site.

"Go away! You're saying things I don't like!"

Nope, was just suggesting you may have more fun with like minds.

[DVD Burner]

I just heard Obama's "close the deal" speech he gave in Canton. All I can say is WOW! (and that's a good "WOW".) Anybody have a link to the transcript?

But you're sold already. Would someone who's not already sold say 'wow'?

Apparently Lurker did not hear the speech.
Most likely doesn't want to either.

[Elderberry]

But you're sold already. Would someone who's not already sold say 'wow'?

Why of course. It's always nice to have one's opinions validated. Can't get enought of that.

Plus, I was thinking that it was a great speach and it should really help him with the undecideds. Although I don't understand how anyone could be undecided at this point, but... Anyway, it might also help him with other independents too.

If you can, for even a moment, take his words at face value his speech was moving and inspirational.

JK

[DVD Burner]

Bet Lurker is listening to that speech now.


He'll find something in it he thinks is bogus I'm sure.

[ygmir]

But you're sold already. Would someone who's not already sold say 'wow'?

If you can, for even a moment, take his words at face value his speech was moving and inspirational.

JK

I know you're not talking to me, but, I'd like to comment:

I have trouble taking any politicians words at face value, especially when contained in a speech given during a campaign..........

but then again, I am kind of cynical.......

[Elderberry]

I know you're not talking to me, but, I'd like to comment:

I have trouble taking any politicians words at face value, especially when contained in a speech given during a campaign..........

but then again, I am kind of cynical.......

I know. We've discussed this before. I'm tired of being all that cynical. It takes about as much out of me as being angry. I would imagine it's kind of like having kids--especially when you think they are going to do something that will ruin their entire lives--but you can't give up on them.

So, for now, I like believing and leaving myself in the position of being able to be disappointed. I guess that's what 'hope' is, no? If we believe that America is the greatest country in the world, we have, in my opinion, no other choice.

JK

[ygmir]

I know you're not talking to me, but, I'd like to comment:

I have trouble taking any politicians words at face value, especially when contained in a speech given during a campaign..........

but then again, I am kind of cynical.......

I know. We've discussed this before. I'm tired of being all that cynical. It takes about as much out of me as being angry. I would imagine it's kind of like having kids--especially when you think they are going to do something that will ruin their entire lives--but you can't give up on them.

So, for now, I like believing and leaving myself in the position of being able to be disappointed. I guess that's what 'hope' is, no? If we believe that America is the greatest country in the world, we have, in my opinion, no other choice.

JK

very good points, thanks.

I have to ask, though, in reference to this quote:

.,..........I would imagine it's kind of like having kids--especially when you think they are going to do something that will ruin their entire lives--but you can't give up on them...........

Are you Jehovah's Witness? I've heard them say about the same thing............................................................................................












..................BBBWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAAAHA, I can't hold it in any longer......giggling...........

[lurker]

Okay, I read the NYT transcript. God. I hope that this man is not elected.

It made me think of this--

Five percent will pay for a tax cut for 95%.
Five percent will pay for health care for all.
Five percent will pay for the bailout of the banks.
Five percent will pay for better schools.
Five percent will pay for tuition tax credit.
Five percent will pay for expanded stem cell research.
Five percent will pay for broadband access for everyone.
Five percent will pay for a "digital smart grid" (what ever that is?).
Five percent will pay for American car companies new energy efficient cars.
Five percent will pay for an expanded war in Afghanistan (10,000 more troops for Afghanistan).
Five percent will pay for the new war in Pakistan to find Osama bin Laden.
Five percent will pay for new jobs for unemployed.
Five percent will pay for better salaries for the 95%.
Five percent will pay for the new technologies for energy independence, in 10 years.
Five percent will pay for all the stimulus the economy needs.
Five percent will pay to finish building 100-year protection by 2011 for New Orleans.
Five percent will pay to lower the national dept.
Five percent will pay for restoring the Everglades.
Five percent will pay to eliminate the capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups.
Five percent will pay for new roads and bridges for the country.
Five percent will pay for tax credits for companies that create domestic jobs.
Five percent will not move their investments into tax free areas like government bonds.
Five percent will not take advantage of tax loop holes.
Five percent will not hide money.
Five percent will not raise prices they have control over to offset the taxes.
Five percent will not eliminate jobs to offset the taxes.
Five percent will not notice they have enough money that they don't have to work anymore and just go home.
Five percent will not any way impede the government's attempts to take their money.
Five percent will not get any representation in the new government.
Five percent will not get any thanks in the new government.

I know. We've discussed this before. I'm tired of being all that cynical. It takes about as much out of me as being angry.

In politics, if in anything cynicism is a must have. Politicians long for believers who will accept whatever they say. Giving them that ensures bad government.

I would imagine it's kind of like having kids--especially when you think they are going to do something that will ruin their entire lives--but you can't give up on them.

When you have kids, and they're going to do something that will destroy their lives, you do everything in your power to stop them. You don't give up on them, but you don't let them ruin themselves either.

So, for now, I like believing and leaving myself in the position of being able to be disappointed. I guess that's what 'hope' is, no? If we believe that America is the greatest country in the world, we have, in my opinion, no other choice

This just scares me. 'If I believe, and don't hold their feet to the fire, maybe they'll do everything they promised and make the world a better place'.

But, y'wanna know something? If Obama is elected, I think you'll get your wish.

I think the financial crisis will evaporate. I think international tensions will ease into something akin to a coma. The homeless will be homes, the insuranceless will be insured, the poor will be rich--I think the tone of the news will change to one of sunshine and roses

And I will weep for America. Because none of the problems will really have gone away--most will worsen--even as Fannie and Freddie did when Bush warned about them months after getting into office--but we were in a period of joy then, for a few shining moments--because Jim Jeffords handed the Senate to the Democrats--

Democrats have controlled our inner cities since before I was born--and they keep getting elected with promises of help for those inner cities. Promises that never seem to materialize.

[DVD Burner]

How come people like you always have a problem posting a link when you post shit like that?

What is your proof you got that from a reputable source?

You people always do that shit and think you can just get over like that.

POST A FUCKING LINK LURKER.

You would never let me get away with that.

As it is, the way you posted that, it makes you look like you are full of shit.

[littleflower]

Littleflower and Lurker may be better off and be totally happier at this site.

"Go away! You're saying things I don't like!"

Nope, was just suggesting you may have more fun with like minds.

it is no fun agreeing with everyone, DVD... boring ... yech. the problem is that you are not giving us much to chew on... blithely dismissing what i wrote as "insignificant" while arguing that *your* party affiliation is what really matters ... WTF?

i actually thoroughly enjoy e-fighting with JK and reading the insights of various characters hereabouts... this place is a lot of fun... or i would not be here ....

[lurker]

Why does it need a cite?

Obama says 95% get a tax cut. Obama says he wants to do stuff. Other than the last 9, which are snark, those are all things Obama wants to do. So the 5% who don't get a tax CUT, must be the ones who'll pay for it all.

But it's all snark, in a way--it's just pointing out the disconnect between the promises made.

[Elderberry]

Okay, I read the NYT transcript. God. I hope that this man is not elected.

It made me think of this--

Five percent will pay for a tax cut for 95%.
Five percent will pay for health care for all.
Five percent will pay for the bailout of the banks.
Five percent will pay for better schools.
Five percent will pay for tuition tax credit.
Five percent will pay for expanded stem cell research.
Five percent will pay for broadband access for everyone.
Five percent will pay for a "digital smart grid" (what ever that is?).
Five percent will pay for American car companies new energy efficient cars.
Five percent will pay for an expanded war in Afghanistan (10,000 more troops for Afghanistan).
Five percent will pay for the new war in Pakistan to find Osama bin Laden.
Five percent will pay for new jobs for unemployed.
Five percent will pay for better salaries for the 95%.
Five percent will pay for the new technologies for energy independence, in 10 years.
Five percent will pay for all the stimulus the economy needs.
Five percent will pay to finish building 100-year protection by 2011 for New Orleans.
Five percent will pay to lower the national dept.
Five percent will pay for restoring the Everglades.
Five percent will pay to eliminate the capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups.
Five percent will pay for new roads and bridges for the country.
Five percent will pay for tax credits for companies that create domestic jobs.
Five percent will not move their investments into tax free areas like government bonds.
Five percent will not take advantage of tax loop holes.
Five percent will not hide money.
Five percent will not raise prices they have control over to offset the taxes.
Five percent will not eliminate jobs to offset the taxes.
Five percent will not notice they have enough money that they don't have to work anymore and just go home.
Five percent will not any way impede the government's attempts to take their money.
Five percent will not get any representation in the new government.
Five percent will not get any thanks in the new government.

I know. We've discussed this before. I'm tired of being all that cynical. It takes about as much out of me as being angry.

In politics, if in anything cynicism is a must have. Politicians long for believers who will accept whatever they say. Giving them that ensures bad government.

I would imagine it's kind of like having kids--especially when you think they are going to do something that will ruin their entire lives--but you can't give up on them.

When you have kids, and they're going to do something that will destroy their lives, you do everything in your power to stop them. You don't give up on them, but you don't let them ruin themselves either.

So, for now, I like believing and leaving myself in the position of being able to be disappointed. I guess that's what 'hope' is, no? If we believe that America is the greatest country in the world, we have, in my opinion, no other choice

This just scares me. 'If I believe, and don't hold their feet to the fire, maybe they'll do everything they promised and make the world a better place'.

But, y'wanna know something? If Obama is elected, I think you'll get your wish.

I think the financial crisis will evaporate. I think international tensions will ease into something akin to a coma. The homeless will be homes, the insuranceless will be insured, the poor will be rich--I think the tone of the news will change to one of sunshine and roses

And I will weep for America. Because none of the problems will really have gone away--most will worsen--even as Fannie and Freddie did when Bush warned about them months after getting into office--but we were in a period of joy then, for a few shining moments--because Jim Jeffords handed the Senate to the Democrats--

Democrats have controlled our inner cities since before I was born--and they keep getting elected with promises of help for those inner cities. Promises that never seem to materialize.

For some, the glass will always be half empty. In your case it will be totally dry. Our total income tax system has always (well at least for as long as we have had income tax) been designed to redistribute the wealth. Even Warren Buffet (my finance hero) agrees that the rich need to pay A WHOLE LOT more in taxes.

I'm not going to let you rain on my parade any longer. I've already got my reservation for our victory party on the fourth (open bar!! LOL) and I am looking forward to a bright future for all Americans when Barack Obama becomes our president.

JK

[Simon of the Playa]

I'm coming for YOUR 5% Lurker.....

be careful, that guy with the HUGE pompadour whose been following you around soho is ME!

[lurker]

It's so weird...never any real answers.

My glass is full to overflowing, jkisha. As anyone's can be--if they know what fills it.

And what kind of idiot doesn't understand that while Warren Buffet is saying things like 'the rich need to pay more taxes', Warren Buffet is ensuring that he has as little taxable income as possible? He's already worked out a way to avoid the estate tax

This is what I mean--you listen to an ultrarich liberal who says 'soak the rich' without the slightest understanding that the ultrarich liberal in question has an army of people employed to make sure that while he pays all that he's legally required to pay, it's on as little of his wealth as he can manage.

A few years back, my wife was managing a fabric store. She got a $500.00 bonus for something she did--the government took half of it. We're not rich--by anyone's stretch of the imagination. But it was a 'capital gain' and so it got nailed at a rate much higher than her pay. Half.

I don't want our 'progressive' tax system--because it IS a redistribution of wealth. Give me a simple consumption tax. That way everyone is invested equally in the government--NO ONE avoids taxes. But I bet THAT type of equality is something you just can't get behind.

[Simon of the Playa]

so, your wife was in the "schmata" biz huh...

me too...


rags to not riches, so to speak.....it's a hard gig, and all the jobbers have disappeared in the past ten years.

it aint like used to be, thats for sure....

[ygmir]

well,
I just voted..................by mail, that's nice and convenient at least.

[Elderberry]

This is what I mean--you listen to an ultrarich liberal who says 'soak the rich' without the slightest understanding that the ultrarich liberal in question has an army of people employed to make sure that while he pays all that he's legally required to pay, it's on as little of his wealth as he can manage.

----

A few years back, my wife was managing a fabric store. She got a $500.00 bonus for something she did--the government took half of it. We're not rich--by anyone's stretch of the imagination. But it was a 'capital gain' and so it got nailed at a rate much higher than her pay. Half.

First, don't presume to tell me what I know and don't know. Yes, Buffet is taking advantage of all of the existing tax code to save as much money as possible, as any intelligent person would. There is no contridiction here. He also has donated more money to charity than you and I combined will ever make in our life times. BILLIONS!

A 'bonus' is NOT A CAPITAL GAIN. We pay bonuses all the time--they are NOT CAPITAL GAINS. But I won't presume to tell you what you may or may not know about payroll. I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you either got it confused or mispoke in your post or you didn't understand that adding an additional $500.00 to paycheck of a person being paid weekly would cause that week to appear to be taxed at a higher rate, but that when filing their tax return, the tax amount would average out to the appropriate amount for their entire yearly income bracket.

JK

[lurker]

First, don't presume to tell me what I know and don't know.

You said you listen to Buffet.

Yes, Buffet is taking advantage of all of the existing tax code to save as much money as possible, as any intelligent person would. There is no contridiction here.

Right--though most can't afford to pay someone to find the bits in the tax code that Buffet uses--or have the ability to hide their money in places where it can't be taxed as Buffet does.

And you don't find it funny?

Why, if Buffet REALLY felt that the rich pay too little in taxes he could move all his wealth into taxable venues and refuse any and all loopholes--after all--the rich need to pay more taxes. But he doesn't do that does he? Instead he plays the system for all it's worth while prattling about the 'rich' paying more.

He does one thing, and says another.

He also has donated more money to charity than you and I combined will ever make in our life times. BILLIONS!

I'm not sure what his philanthropy has to do with this? He hides his wealth from the taxman so he can give it away himself? I'd like that option too. But I don't get it. I don't even get yelled at for that 'tax the rich' thing. I just seem to wind up paying more taxes--despite being a part of that 'middle class' that Dems always say they're gonna help. Kinda the same way they're always going to take care of the poor and fix the inner cities--it's always 'jam tomorrow'.

[Elderberry]

I'm not sure what his philanthropy has to do with this? He hides his wealth from the taxman so he can give it away himself? I'd like that option too. But I don't get it. I don't even get yelled at for that 'tax the rich' thing. I just seem to wind up paying more taxes--despite being a part of that 'middle class' that Dems always say they're gonna help. Kinda the same way they're always going to take care of the poor and fix the inner cities--it's always 'jam tomorrow'.

His actions make total sense to me. He takes advantage of every loophole that the tax code allows, as he should--as we all should. He would like the loop holes to be closed; and he would then pay more tax. But he is playing by the rules and I find nothing wrong with that.

Why do you sound so resentful that he doesn't pay taxes and gives more than half of his money to charity???? Maybe you'd be better off if you voted Democratic and then actually supported them.

JK

[betrdanevr]

I hate posting whole articles, but I think this one is a good one -- from US News & World Report:

October 28, 2008 05:36 PM ET | John Aloysius Farrell

We've been hearing some pretty hysterical things said by Barack Obama's critics about Obamanomics.

Socialist. Destroyer of wealth. Enemy of small business.

So, here's a primer on how Obama, if elected, will be "spreading the wealth around" in the next four years—and why he's far from a socialist radical.

And even, to a struggling but hopeful entrepreneur like myself (call me Jack the Writer), not cause for alarm.

Let's begin with some historical perspective. The United States responded to the last existential crisis faced by Americans—the triple-headed threat posed by Depression, Fascism, and Communism—by raising taxes and going into debt, big time, to pay for all those Sherman tanks and B-17 bombers and ICBMs we needed to defend ourselves. We paid down that debt, gleefully, with high income tax rates in the golden economic era, the Happy Days, that followed World War II.

But as the middle class grew larger in that time of postwar prosperity, more and more Americans crept into the top tax brackets that had, previously, been the exclusive domain of the filthy rich. John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson cut income taxes, bringing the top rate down from its confiscatory wartime high of 94 percent to 70 percent.

There things stood until the modern conservative era arrived, in part on the wings of a potent antitax movement. Ronald Reagan, in his first year in office, dropped that top rate to 50 percent.

The recession of 1982 and other events led him to tinker a bit—signing big tax hikes in his remaining years in office—but, after the tax reform bill of 1986 (which eliminated a lot of the loopholes by which companies and wealthy individuals dodged taxes), he left his successors with a 28 percent top rate and a worrisome federal budget deficit.

George H. W. Bush faced reality, broke his "Read my lips, no new taxes" promise, and signed a big tax bill during his presidency. Bill Clinton, still facing those Reagan deficits, listened to the bond market and raised taxes again in his first year in office. Both men paid a political cost, but these two tax hikes put the nation's finances on a sound basis, and the economy responded with roaring growth. The top rate was now at 39.6 percent.

As James Carville likes to ask, "What didn't you like about the Clinton years? The peace or the prosperity?"

Well, the Bush-Clinton tax hikes brought in so much money during the high-tech boom that the federal budget was balanced and the deficit erased. And in the fall of 2000, both Al Gore and George W. Bush offered big tax cuts if elected.

The Gore-Bush argument was a preview of the Obama-McCain dispute. Gore wanted to target tax cuts for the middle class; Bush urged a bigger, across-the-board tax cut that was tilted toward the wealthiest Americans.

Bush won. His tax cuts (which McCain voted against) passed Congress and contributed to a massive redistribution of riches in America. Wealth moved out of the bank accounts of working and middle-class families and into those of the wealthiest Americans. The top rate was down to 35 percent.

To cut taxes as deeply as they wished, without releasing a river of red ink on the books, the administration and its allies in Congress set time limits on almost all the Bush tax cuts, which will expire during the next presidency.

If Obama or McCain don't do anything, we'll all be facing much higher taxes. Not a good idea when the nation is trying to climb out of a recessionary slump. So both parties have promised tax cuts, and we the voters have a classic opportunity to gauge each party's priorities.

As he made the transition from maverick to Republican presidential hopeful, McCain concluded that the across-the-board tax cuts that he opposed back in 2001 now look pretty good, and he has vowed to permanently extend them, and cut various other taxes, at a cost of $3.7 trillion over the next 10 years.

Obama has responded with a Gore-like approach, which favors the middle class and leaves the top rate where it was during the years of Clinton prosperity—at 39.6 percent—lower than after Reagan's first big tax cut and ridiculously undeserving of the charges of "socialism" or "destroyer of wealth."

According to an analysis by the wizards at the Tax Policy Center at the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution, if Obama is elected, and his proposal is passed by Congress, 81 percent of American households will see their taxes go down, 8 percent will see no change, and the wealthiest 11 percent will pay higher tax bills.

Obama's plan will cost the Treasury $2.7 trillion—a trillion saved from what McCain hopes to provide the wealthy—over the next 10 years.

Under the Obama plan, the bottom 20 percent of households in America would get a tax cut of $567, and the middle 20 percent would see their taxes drop by $1,042. But the richest 1 percent of Americans (those earning an average of $1.5 million a year) would see taxes go up by $116,000.

Under the McCain plan, the bottom 20 percent would get a $19 tax cut, the middle fifth would get a tax cut of $319, and the wealthiest 1 percent would see their taxes go down by more than $40,000.

Neither plan qualifies as European-style socialism.

[Ugly Dougly]

Barack's "Propaganda" is now in Russian, comrade: