Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

[Elderberry]

I hate posting whole articles, but I think this one is a good one -- from US News & World Report:

That was a good article--to bad that the stupid middle class republicans don't realize that they will benefit from Obama's plan. They are more concerned with protecting their 'future' earnings when they become rich! LOL which for most of them will be never--but that American Dream is being chased by them like the lottery. It's that "religious thinking", if I only believe I will be rich one day, then I will. McCain promises it will happen and they swallow it hook line and sinker.

JK

[ygmir]

yeah, it's crazy what some people will believe..........

[littleflower]

i find it interesting that the article provided by betrdanevr did not say a thing about tax hikes or new taxes in other areas ... the most egregious exclusion being the social security tax, which obama will raise god knows how much. i also don't see anything about whether or not businesses will have to match the additional amount... something that will kill jobs. state income taxes and sales taxes have also increased pretty dramatically in recent years, especially in states like california and new york... places where an income of $250K doesn't go very far for someone with a mortgage and kids looking into college. property taxes are pretty high, too ... and new assessments seem to be added here and there. has anyone else received a speeding ticket lately? my last one was $986 ... that was reduced to $325 because i went to traffic school ...

meanwhile, obama will increase spending...

and the clinton years SUCKED in LA. i had an upside-down mortgage for at least 5 years.

a note on bonuses: i know several high income people whose bonuses are paid in company stock ... they can't sell it, but they have to pay tax on is as if it were liquid...

who knows ... but it never, ever looks so simple to me ...

[Elderberry]

No matter which candidate gets elected they will raise taxes. They will have no choice. We need to pay for the war. We need to pay down the debt. We need to basically dig our way out of the last eight years. I don't care. We need to all bite the bullet and do the responsible thing--stop bitching about taxes. We spent like fiends and now we have to pay the piper. Get used to it.

Did you read my post about the 10% war tax? The best tax that could ever be levied. How long do you think the Iraq war would have lasted if everyone had to pay a 10% tax off the top from their income? Lasted, hell--it never would have been allowed to start. But Bush lied and said we could do it--no sweat--just go out live your lives and spend, spend, spend. And we did. Now we have to pay, like it or not. To believe any different is delusional.

JK

[littleflower]

that may well be ... but my point was that other taxes have been raised to pay for this and that ... the expenses just keep growing ... how much tax do you think people can pay?

and you ... you advocate abolishing income tax in favor of a consumption tax on other threads ... exactly how far do you think that would go? a great many of the wealthy make more than they can spend, you know... i don't think you know how much they are paying ... i saw a graph the other day but can't find it now... the top 1% are paying over 30% of the total income tax ...

[Elderberry]

that may well be ... but my point was that other taxes have been raised to pay for this and that ... the expenses just keep growing ... how much tax do you think people can pay?

and you ... you advocate abolishing income tax in favor of a consumption tax on other threads ... exactly how far do you think that would go? a great many of the wealthy make more than they can spend, you know... i don't think you know how much they are paying ... i saw a graph the other day but can't find it now... the top 1% are paying over 30% of the total income tax ...

During the 'Big War' they paid almost 90%. I'm not crying for them; they are still getting off easy.

JK

[littleflower]

that may well be ... but my point was that other taxes have been raised to pay for this and that ... the expenses just keep growing ... how much tax do you think people can pay?

and you ... you advocate abolishing income tax in favor of a consumption tax on other threads ... exactly how far do you think that would go? a great many of the wealthy make more than they can spend, you know... i don't think you know how much they are paying ... i saw a graph the other day but can't find it now... the top 1% are paying over 30% of the total income tax ...

During the 'Big War' they paid almost 90%. I'm not crying for them; they are still getting off easy.

JK

well, let's be grateful that this is not a great war!

[DVD Burner]

BOO!

[ygmir]

BOO!

EEK

[lurker]

Here's what happens with taxes--think that the ultra-rich hiding their money has anything to do with it?

We started, as you may recall, with families making under $250,000.00 getting a tax cut.

[youtube][/youtube]

Now it's $200,000.00(about 20 seconds in)

[youtube][/youtube]

And now it's $150,000.00(33 seconds in)

Can you do the taxman limbo? Can you avoid getting hit by the stick? Don't worry about the carrot--that's for Warren Buffet.

[DVD Burner]

And all you heard out of both those you posted is $250,000.00 and $150,000.00? Did you listen to the other solutions he proposes as president?
Did you watch all of both videos?
You just posted that you may have ADD. You only got at max, 33 seconds into the clips, and most likely closed off your mind to the rest.

What, wait, let me guess, you have a problem with one of the other solutions Obama proposed?
Like the bringing back jobs to America and stopping corporates in the US from outsourcing?

Any others you want to talk about?

[lurker]

DVD, darling, when I'm pointing out how the promised tax increase has moved from those making $250,001, down to $200,001, and then $150,001--a very, very clear statement that the One intends to raise taxes on far more people than he previously stated, why should I take ANYTHING else he says at face value?

Wait--I know. I should take them at face value because I'm supposed to HOPE he doesn't CHANGE this, like he CHANGED the level of income to be getting a tax increase.

But, since you're incapable of understanding that I gave markers so you could see just where things became subject to CHANGE...

I am doing better now than I was 4, even 8 years ago.

As for the rest, it looks like that 5% thing I posted WAS just blogger nonsense. Barack says he's gonna finance it on 2%(around 81 seconds in)

Though, I gotta admit that it's kinda sad that such a smart, even hyper-intelligent candidate doesn't know that way more than 2% of our population make more than $150,000--and what about that other 3%? He says 95% get a tax cut, and the 2% that make more than $200,000(now $150,000) are getting a tax increase==what happens to that other 3%? Do they get nothing?

I bet we've gotta HOPE that he gets advice from someone who can add and then CHANGES this too.

[ygmir]

one, fundamental, even if, to some, small, I issue I have with politicians, presidential candidates in particular is:

They promise they're "going" to do something (implying it WILL happen).........I think that phrase is misleading, and, even, knowingly disingenuous.
They know, even if most of the sheeple don't, that, almost nothing can be done without congressional approval, or at least, acquiescence..........

If they'd just phrase it " I'll try to........."........I'd feel they were at least admitting their limits.

So many of the campaign "promises" are broken, but, it's never their fault.........

maybe, quit patronizing us and say, "I'll do my best to make this happen".........


just a random thought.........

[Elderberry]

maybe, quit patronizing us and say, "I'll do my best to make this happen".........


just a random thought.........

Well it's a good random thought, but it's wasted on the masses. The truth is that taxes will have to be raised and programs will have to be cut, whether lurker likes it or not, whether it be Obama or McCain. Who would stand a chance of winning if they were that honest? And people don't want to hear 'try', it's not "american", they want 'do'.

JK

[ygmir]

maybe, quit patronizing us and say, "I'll do my best to make this happen".........


just a random thought.........

Well it's a good random thought, but it's wasted on the masses. The truth is that taxes will have to be raised and programs will have to be cut, whether lurker likes it or not, whether it be Obama or McCain. Who would stand a chance of winning if they were that honest? And people don't want to hear 'try', it's not "american", they want 'do'.

JK

yup, I agree, and follow up, repeating myself:
I have to question the judgment of anyone wanting this job in the first place..........

part of my disenfranchisement from both parties.......

[lurker]

A spending freeze would be a good idea....hmm....seems I heard someone talking about doing just that.....now who could it be....?

'Course, it's all rhetoric, Ygmir. Why, notice how they tout the Obama tax cuts until numbers get pointed out? Then it's all "taxes will have to be raised" and "Who would stand a chance of winning if they were that honest?" ?

Why that's cynical--but it CAN'T be--'cos the person saying it said that he was tired of cynicism and just wanted to believe.....

Why, it's like he wants to have it both ways.......there's term for that.....it's on the tip of my tongue....

[Elderberry]

yup, I agree, and follow up, repeating myself:
I have to question the judgment of anyone wanting this job in the first place..........

part of my disenfranchisement from both parties.......

Wouldn't you want the job if you actually believed you could help to fix things? For as anti-religious as I am, I really believe that many people are called into the ministry for just this reason--to make things better for people and the world.

I actually believe that Obama is one of these people. He is a person that has many other options and he has chosen public service.

(I actually believe that McCain might be one of these people too; but I just don't agree with his plan and I am afraid of his temperment--I really think the man is a ticking time-bomb--PTSD from being a prisoner.)

Everybody needs to get involved in some way--to take back their franchise. It really does trickle up. It starts with the neighbors on your block, then joining an organization, like a local chamber of commerce, or volunteering, or even block-watch is a start. It is really empowering; and for me, a much better alternative than to just give up.

Have you ever written a congressman or senator or president a letter? Or sent an email? They sometimes even write back!

JK

[ygmir]

yup, I agree, and follow up, repeating myself:
I have to question the judgment of anyone wanting this job in the first place..........

part of my disenfranchisement from both parties.......

Wouldn't you want the job if you actually believed you could help to fix things? For as anti-religious as I am, I really believe that many people are called into the ministry for just this reason--to make things better for people and the world.

I actually believe that Obama is one of these people. He is a person that has many other options and he has chosen public service.

(I actually believe that McCain might be one of these people too; but I just don't agree with his plan and I am afraid of his temperment--I really think the man is a ticking time-bomb--PTSD from being a prisoner.)

Everybody needs to get involved in some way--to take back their franchise. It really does trickle up. It starts with the neighbors on your block, then joining an organization, like a local chamber of commerce, or volunteering, or even block-watch is a start. It is really empowering; and for me, a much better alternative than to just give up.

Have you ever written a congressman or senator or president a letter? Or sent an email? They sometimes even write back!

JK

Well
I guess if a person really thought they could help, and, were willing.........
My cynicism tells me, they don't go into politics altruistically......they're there for power, influence, money, notoriety, whatever.........
They preach change to get elected.........and, sometimes, some of it happens.........

See, to me, if Obama had "many other options", he'd take the best for him, and, this is it..........
I also feel national candidates are, perhaps necessarily, narcissistic by nature.......it's about them.........they'll be the messiah.......and the hoards will worship and thank them.............

dang, I think I need a drink..........or happy juice of some sort.......
I'm the giggling cynic..........hahahaa

I totally agree with getting involved just as you state.
I also feel, we should teach by example: Live the life we preach, or, try our best.........

[Elderberry]

Yes, I didn't want to get into the ego/power thing. I'm sure that's part of it too. More for some than for others.

But think about this, there are over 300,000,000 people in the United States; how can there ever be total agreement on anything. So, there is compromise and compromise means that the group in power tries to get more of what they want than those not in power; which means that all change is slow. Combine that with the fact that those out of power are quick to blame and you can see what any president is up against.

I like to argue about these things and sometimes I talk more than I actually do; but hopefully these discussions will help me become more accountable to myself.

It's interesting that I was way more cynicle in my 40s and 50s. I'm starting to mellow out a lot more nowadays. (I'm still a crotchety old man though!, and don't let anybody forget it!)

JK

[Ugly Dougly]

Most people look at the troubles in the world and say, why bother? The problem's too big, everyone's corrupt, my efforts would be in vain.

Is so hard to believe that a few would actually think that they can actually make a difference, and be willing to risk anything to achieve this?

Astronauts, for instance, go through a lot of trouble for much less.

Maybe we're all just a bit too cynical.

[ygmir]

Most people look at the troubles in the world and say, why bother? The problem's too big, everyone's corrupt, my efforts would be in vain.

Is so hard to believe that a few would actually think that they can actually make a difference, and be willing to risk anything to achieve this?

Astronauts, for instance, go through a lot of trouble for much less.

Maybe we're all just a bit too cynical.

do ya think astronauts are such for the good of mankind? I think, bless em, they're really good pilots, and, want to go higher, faster, and get more press.........most, IIRC, are fighter pilots, and, have a very good sense of self respect....or adoration..........

I totally agree with individuals being able to change the world..........and, that's how it should happen, IMHO............and are willing to go it, even alone, to prove a point and make a difference.

I just don't think these two are them...........

[Simon of the Playa]

give him a chance Lurker, or are you an UnPatriotic piece of shit who WANTS to see him fail.


kind of selfish, fucking the country for your own little sense of sick satisfaction...


you must be a commie.


(there, how's it FEEL, commie)

[Elderberry]

kind of selfish, fucking the country for your own little sense of sick satisfaction...

And you don't think that's what all of the other right wing republicans are thinking too?

Obama's speeches as more inclusive and uniting than I have ever heard in recent times. I hope he can reach even a small minority of the right wingers. Ironically, most of them stand to benefit from almost everything he is proposing.

I really enjoy seeing how he asks people in the crowd to raise their hands if they make less than $250,000. Of course it's the vast majority--then he points out how they will be the ones that are benefiting. I'm sure the same number of hands would be raised in a McCain/Palin crowd, yet those people are too dense to realize how they will be fucked by their candidate.

JK

[lurker]

I'd say 'food for thought', but it's pretty clear that a lot of you are WAAAAY past thinking--

[youtube][/youtube]

Inclusive. Yeah. That's a way to put it

And do you not understand the difference in inclusivity between a tax cut for those making under $250,000 or $200,000 or $150,000(let me know when that settles down will ya?) and a tax cut for everyone who pays taxes?

Everyone--vs--NOT everyone. Which one includes more....hmm?

But you can't get past the class envy that demands that someone MUST be punitively taxed for their 'unfair' success, can you?

[DVD Burner]

Sorry, but Lurker reminds me of this guy. Not as brash as this guy, never the less, the same mindset.

[Ugly Dougly]

Most people look at the troubles in the world and say, why bother? The problem's too big, everyone's corrupt, my efforts would be in vain.

Is so hard to believe that a few would actually think that they can actually make a difference, and be willing to risk anything to achieve this?

Astronauts, for instance, go through a lot of trouble for much less.

Maybe we're all just a bit too cynical.

do ya think astronauts are such for the good of mankind? I think, bless em, they're really good pilots, and, want to go higher, faster, and get more press.........most, IIRC, are fighter pilots, and, have a very good sense of self respect....or adoration..........

I totally agree with individuals being able to change the world..........and, that's how it should happen, IMHO............and are willing to go it, even alone, to prove a point and make a difference.

I just don't think these two are them...........

What did I say about astronauts being good for mankind?

Let's talk in terms that even a conservative can understand. A soldier. With a gun. Do I have your attention?
He's got a cause in mind, and confidence and courage. Why is it so easy to believe a soldier is willing to give his life in battle, but it's so hard to believe a politician can have unselfish motives?

[ygmir]

Most people look at the troubles in the world and say, why bother? The problem's too big, everyone's corrupt, my efforts would be in vain.

Is so hard to believe that a few would actually think that they can actually make a difference, and be willing to risk anything to achieve this?

Astronauts, for instance, go through a lot of trouble for much less.

Maybe we're all just a bit too cynical.

do ya think astronauts are such for the good of mankind? I think, bless em, they're really good pilots, and, want to go higher, faster, and get more press.........most, IIRC, are fighter pilots, and, have a very good sense of self respect....or adoration..........

I totally agree with individuals being able to change the world..........and, that's how it should happen, IMHO............and are willing to go it, even alone, to prove a point and make a difference.

I just don't think these two are them...........

What did I say about astronauts being good for mankind?

Let's talk in terms that even a conservative can understand. A soldier. With a gun. Do I have your attention?
He's got a cause in mind, and confidence and courage. Why is it so easy to believe a soldier is willing to give his life in battle, but it's so hard to believe a politician can have unselfish motives?

I didn't say astronauts weren't good for mankind, I just said, IMHO, they don't become astronauts for the good of mankind, they do it for their own reasons.

..........Why is it so easy to believe a soldier is willing to give his life in battle, but it's so hard to believe a politician can have unselfish motives?.........

because, I've yet to see it happen in reference to a politician.......

I'm not saying they can't and don't do good, I'm saying, IMHO, their driving force for going into politics is self serving........

[littleflower]

that's too cynical, even for me ...

i do think, however, that there are many who have good intentions, but end up screwing things up as bad ... if not worse ... than they were.

i also think that there are some who see the corruption and get out...

[ygmir]

I would agree that some, few, good ones may well see the corruption and get out........some also fall to the dark side.........

[Elderberry]

I'd say 'food for thought', but it's pretty clear that a lot of you are WAAAAY past thinking--

How do you know Obama even said that? If indeed he did, then when? And if he did, what did it prove? That he has a diverse group of friends around him? Nothing that would give me, or any other worldly thinking person pause. The only people that would give worry to might be insecure uneducated white folk--like maybe skin heads, white supremacists and their ilk--oh and let's not forget those backwoods people that only have their guns and god to cling to.

JK