Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:49 am

By all accounts is a was a good and fair race, and people who know them both said that both are good and fair men; perhaps, in fact, the two best candidates from the major parties. No matter what, AMERICA WON.

We've become used to "seeing history in the making": Worst tsunami, worst hurricane, biggest terrorist attack, worst economy in a century... today, the sun rises over the graves of Frederick Douglass and the Rosa Parks.

I've always been a McCain fan. His legendary temper is most likely a circumstance of his torture. (I was raised by an ex-POW; a tortured saint.)
McCain's failure wasn't the man, it was that he listened to his party advisors. These are the worst batch of Republicans in the history of America, and after all the years of their trying to destroy him on talk radio and politics, he embraced their advice. We've already seen them turn on Palin. Many people like myself bitterly wished to support McCain, but could not stomach what the detestable boomer-powered Republican machine has become.

To their credit, Osama Bin Laden's promise of greater attacks didn't materialize. The election wasn't suspended, no civilian was drafted against his will. The rumor-mongering and political hysteria that surrounded the political left amounted to little except where their dishonesty and bullshit influenced mind-lame voters. In that case, they too won.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:03 pm

i think the most important aspect of this election is the Global impact.

more and more over the next days and weeks as the reports come in we will see a rebirth, at least in the eyes of the world, of "The American Dream"

(hey, maybe Larry wasnt so fucked up when he decided on that theme, maybe just a little drunk.....hmmmmm)

it is an Historic Phenomena that is breathtaking in it's overnight viral spread.

my God, we as a nation did more to further Democracy abroad than any amount of military might could ever dream of achieving.

We no longer have to hide behind canadian flags when we travel overseas.

think about it.Look at the reaction and the unbelievable positive 'feedback' and approval from the rest of the Globe.

Unprecedented.

thank God. It makes EVERYTHING a hell of lot easier for EVERYONE.

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:14 pm

very well said ... even if i am still missing your snark ...

the immediate international response combined with a president who can speak well !!!! what more could we want?

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:14 pm

ygmir wrote: I agree, you should marry whomever you want.
I don't see a place in government to say otherwise.

yes, telling me that I can't tell you........but, the mechanism is the government........we agree. hooray..

I thought so.

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:19 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote: McCain's failure wasn't the man, it was that he listened to his party advisors.

Interesting you would use this to defend him. He is their LEADER, not the other way around. HE selected his ADVISORS. They are ADVISORS, not policy makers. He chose them, he chose to listen to them and do everything they said. HE MADE ALL OF THE DECISIONS. And obviously he made the wrong ones.

To my way of thinking it is the best measure of how he would have "lead" the country.

It was him and him alone. Not his advisors, their only job was to advise; not to do. McCain's job was to be the doer; instead he chose to follow.

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:21 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:i think the most important aspect of this election is the Global impact.

more and more over the next days and weeks as the reports come in we will see a rebirth, at least in the eyes of the world, of "The American Dream"

(hey, maybe Larry wasnt so fucked up when he decided on that theme, maybe just a little drunk.....hmmmmm)

it is an Historic Phenomena that is breathtaking in it's overnight viral spread.

my God, we as a nation did more to further Democracy abroad than any amount of military might could ever dream of achieving.

We no longer have to hide behind canadian flags when we travel overseas.

think about it.Look at the reaction and the unbelievable positive 'feedback' and approval from the rest of the Globe.

Unprecedented.

thank God. It makes EVERYTHING a hell of lot easier for EVERYONE.

Well said.

JK

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:24 pm

don't blame me, i voted for mccain.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:50 pm

ygmir wrote:and therein lies the problem with propositions.................

Mob rule?!?!

Good point, Ygmir.

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:33 pm

I think that what impressed me most about this election is how close it turned out to be. The difference may be called a mandate, but it's only about 6% of the electorate. As a comparison, roughly 10% of voters think that Obama is Muslim according to a Pew research poll, so the margin of the win is less than the percentage of idiots.

The passing of Prop 8 depresses me. There are still legal challenges based on what is permitted for a proposition, so I'll hope that the courts throw it back to the legislature.

If I were a Republican strategist then I would be really nervous. Almost every demographic category that is increasing is leaning blue. And the voting preferences in the 18-29 group are likely to persist for a while. In other words, unless the R's change the way they approach the electorate they could be in a minority for a long time. Personally I hope that they do change and become more inclusive, since I think that persistent domination by either party is unhealthy.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:05 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
ygmir wrote:and therein lies the problem with propositions.................
Mob rule?!?!

Good point, Ygmir.

I don't follow, can you explain?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:07 pm

dr.placebo wrote:I think that what impressed me most about this election is how close it turned out to be. The difference may be called a mandate, but it's only about 6% of the electorate. As a comparison, roughly 10% of voters think that Obama is Muslim according to a Pew research poll, so the margin of the win is less than the percentage of idiots.

The passing of Prop 8 depresses me. There are still legal challenges based on what is permitted for a proposition, so I'll hope that the courts throw it back to the legislature.

If I were a Republican strategist then I would be really nervous. Almost every demographic category that is increasing is leaning blue. And the voting preferences in the 18-29 group are likely to persist for a while. In other words, unless the R's change the way they approach the electorate they could be in a minority for a long time. Personally I hope that they do change and become more inclusive, since I think that persistent domination by either party is unhealthy.

DP:
Nice post, I'm with you on this.........hooray.......

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:49 am

Prop 8 passed because of voters who are avowedly homophobic voting in huge numbers They were sought out to vote in this very election.

They are deeply religious, are for gun ownership and school vouchers, distrustful(usually) of government, they are personnally pro-life, and are even anti-contraception.

And yet Democrats sought them out to vote.

Go figure.

It saddens me that the 'global impact' of this election includes praise from our enemies, it includes the idea that WE finally got over racism from nations that have never had a person of color come close to being head of state, and it includes snickering behind our backs as Russia moves short range nukes near Poland.

McCains' failure was all McCain--the tatters of the GOP should look closely at him and vow to never run anyone like him again.

Oh geez, give it up already lurker. We won, get over it. Get with the program!!!!

jkisha, I know you won, but, 'give it up'? Your side still rails against the 2000 election--I made one comment about irregularities about the 2008 election--in 2008. And I did so only with the intent of pointing out that there will be no one looking into any allegations of irregularity. No TV special, no books, no media based recounts.

Because it went your way. Kerry won PA with a smaller margin than Bush won OH--but there were no investigations--even though reports of irregularities were coming out all day from PA

As long as the outcome favors your side the people are smart--when they disagree, they're useless and stupid. In your zeal to elect Obama you also got Prop 8 passed. Think about that.

"Get over it". Why should I not act as you all did--screaming about conspiracies and vote fraud? Talking down the economy. Acting as if every move by Obama, for good or ill, is the absolute worst fate we can imagine?

You won, so I should shut up? YOU didn't shut up when WE won.

Ah, but there's that hypocrasy again.

I'll shut up when I'm damned good and ready to shut up--and not before.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:54 am

god's listening, and he has a sick sick sick sense of humour....

just remember what became of Morton Downey Jr.

now THATS funny.

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:25 am

I believe that both voting fraud and illegal voter suppression should be investigated regardless of party. Both parties have been guilty of these practices in the past, and there have been incidents in this election attributable to both factions. It's wrong, even when done for the sake of the candidate that I support (and I think that neither candidate encouraged any illegal voting or voter suppression).

I've posted elsewhere my strong opposition to Prop 8. The idea that the Democrat voter registration drive allowed Prop 8 to pass has a grain of truth, since some new voters certainly did support Prop 8. On the other hand, I'd like to see a neutral analysis of the effect before I agreed with it, since there is countervailing evidence. Voters in the 18-29 block strongly supported No on 8, the counties that had a majority vote No on 8 tended strongly to be ones that supported Obama, and Prop 8 passed with far fewer votes than the old Prop 22. At this point the data is mixed.

And finally, when the positive global reaction to this election is nearly universal, could one really expect that some "enemies" would be missing from the crowd? Perhaps this is a moment when we might be able to make the enemies list shorter.

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:39 am

lurker wrote: It saddens me that the 'global impact' of this election includes praise from our enemies, it includes the idea that WE finally got over racism from nations that have never had a person of color come close to being head of state, and it includes snickering behind our backs as Russia moves short range nukes near Poland.

That you and other people in our country think and feel like this saddens me.

The fact that others in the world, outside our borders, are praising our choice and our new president is a positive sign to me.

The fact that our enemies have positive things to say about us is not something to be sad about, it is something to rejoice about.

Does it mean that they will suddenly become our friends? No.
Does it mean that they might not still attack us? No.
But it does mean that maybe they might be willing to open the door to talking with us, which can lead to improving relations.

Did electing Obama mean the end to racisism in this country? No.
But it was a confirmation that our country has evolved to a place I never thought I would witness in my lifetime.

I could go on and on, but my words will only fall on deaf ears. I am more optimistic and proud of my country now than I have been in the last eight years; and I don't want any rain on my parade!

JK

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:45 am

I believe that both voting fraud and illegal voter suppression should be investigated regardless of party. Both parties have been guilty of these practices in the past, and there have been incidents in this election attributable to both factions. It's wrong, even when done for the sake of the candidate that I support (and I think that neither candidate encouraged any illegal voting or voter suppression).

Way back I posted a whole lotta stuff, with various cites showing that what's called voting fraud and illegal voter suppression is defined differently depending on the party. The "voting fraud and illegal voter suppression' consisted of legal things when Rs did it--nasty, but legal, and the Ds used that nasty but legal stuff to counter the illegal stuff some of theirs were doing.

But, like I said, don't worry--the Rs are too 'noble'(stupid) to make anything out of it.

I've posted elsewhere my strong opposition to Prop 8. The idea that the Democrat voter registration drive allowed Prop 8 to pass has a grain of truth, since some new voters certainly did support Prop 8. On the other hand, I'd like to see a neutral analysis of the effect before I agreed with it, since there is countervailing evidence. Voters in the 18-29 block strongly supported No on 8, the counties that had a majority vote No on 8 tended strongly to be ones that supported Obama, and Prop 8 passed with far fewer votes than the old Prop 22. At this point the data is mixed

.

jkisha said this--

The largest group of supporters for Prop 8 were minority women--blacks and hispanics--go figure.

I don't think you all realised that your allies on Obama were your enemies on Prop 8. And, I'm sorry to tell you that black and hispanic voters in the 18-29 block were not supportive of anything for homosexuals.

Sometimes you don't want your enemies working 'for' you. What's more important, getting your guy elected, or losing civil rights? 'Cos you did both.

And your enemies don't cheer when you've done something that will make you more effective against them....

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:00 am

lurker wrote:
What's more important, getting your guy elected, or losing civil rights?

It is far more important to do the right thing for the entire country first; my personal rights can be taken care of next.

lurker wrote: And your enemies don't cheer when you've done something that will make you more effective against them....

The age of "I won't even acknowledge you, let alone talk to you, unless and until you do what I tell you to do" is hopefully over--ever think that might be why they are cheering. Nobody wants war. (radical fundamentalists might be the exception)

JK

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:09 am

That you and other people in our country think and feel like this saddens me.

Why? Our enemies ARE cheering, Russia IS moving missles near Poland. And I still say that euros and those in virtually mono-racial society have no right to call US racist. When they elect a person to a head of state position who is not from one of their hereditary ruling classes, I'll tip my hat--until then, they need to STFU. At least we TRY to adress racism--we don't act like it doesn't exist.

The fact that others in the world, outside our borders, are praising our choice and our new president is a positive sign to me.

Sure, unless they have every reason to favor a weaker US--and then? Iran has no need for a strong, united US--and they love Obama. Well, they love him NOW

The fact that our enemies have positive things to say about us is not something to be sad about, it is something to rejoice about.

You don't understand how this works, do you? Your enemies will not say nice things about you if you hold them at a disadvantage. They WILL say nice things about you if they think they've got one up on you.

Does it mean that they will suddenly become our friends? No.
Does it mean that they might not still attack us? No.

So we get no net benefit out of all this good feeling?

But it does mean that maybe they might be willing to open the door to talking with us, which can lead to improving relations.

I bet they ARE 'willing to talk'. That's what the West does best--babble, while they keep building munitions, funding terrorism, and attacking us. Oh, and talking out both sides of their faces to the Western Diplomats who refuse to see the forest for the trees.

Did electing Obama mean the end to racisism in this country? No.
But it was a confirmation that our country has evolved to a place I never thought I would witness in my lifetime.

Why not? Now we're all on the same footing--the playing field has been leveled. A poor black kid has the same chance as a poor white kid of becoming President. We just leveled that playing field with a steamroller. But we're STILL gonna have to act as if racism is this huge pervading problem?

Know what's sad here? I wanted Powell to run. I really liked him--and I didn't see anything racial about it--other than the uproar over his race that Ds would make as he garnered the black vote. I think we've been 'ready' for a black president for a while--I just don't like the one we got, or the reasons he got there. I even hoped for a Rice/Guiliani ticket there for a while.

Yeah, I guess it shows that we've gotten--at least a bit--beyond race as the be-all and end all of a person--but it also shows that such a feeling only applies to whites and non-blacks. Black people voted for a black Democrat--hardly surprising. When the black vote is split, or when the black vote goes, nationally, to a better non-black candidate, then we can include black people in that whole 'moving beyond race' thing.

I could go on and on, but my words will only fall on deaf ears. I am more optimistic and proud of my country now than I have been in the last eight years; and I don't want any rain on my parade!

Don't worry, that's not rain. And I had asparagus last night--enjoy!

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:09 am

jkisha wrote: Nobody wants war. (radical fundamentalists might be the exception)

JK

this kind of attitude is, of course, exactly what kept england from dealing with hitler in the 30's.

and why do i suspect that your concern is more with christian fundamentalists than the muslim kind?

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:10 am

(radical fundamentalists might be the exception)

And just who do you think we're dealing with?

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:57 am

Lurker, you begin to sound more and more like the bleating sheep you despise.

keep it up mort, become that braying, but eventually unnoticed voice of the lost angry xenophobes.

what's that, i cant hear you anymore thru the thick accent of grizzled hatred and crusty reactionary jargon...an antique, a side note, like father coughlin and his lovely rag...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:36 am

ygmir wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:
ygmir wrote:and therein lies the problem with propositions.................
Mob rule?!?!

Good point, Ygmir.
I don't follow, can you explain?

As soon as the majority decides they want to burn all the scapegoats, they will create a proposition, stampede and vote in a new amendment to the California Constitution. Then, in the next election season, they may vote in the opposite direction.

This is the flaw in direct democracy: built-in instability.

Let me know if you need any further help in understanding this concept.

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:14 am

So, lurker, who's on your enemies (of the U.S.) list?

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:21 am

littleflower wrote:
jkisha wrote: Nobody wants war. (radical fundamentalists might be the exception)

JK
this kind of attitude is, of course, exactly what kept england from dealing with hitler in the 30's.

and why do i suspect that your concern is more with christian fundamentalists than the muslim kind?

We are not England and this is not the 30's.

And I don't know, it isn't the first time you are wrong.

Why do I suspect that it won't be the last?

JK

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:29 am

I watched the sheep bleat in Grant Park, Simon--how apropos that Obama was crowned in a city famed for it's stockyards and slaughterhouses. Baaaa......

And, isn't it fun? Without recourse to a viable rebuttal I am simply accused of being filled with hatred.

I have not posted rude jokes about Obama. I have not delved into the insipid vulgarity that characterises those who would be mute in their hatred save for their fondness for mouthing obscenity.

I do not hate--there is no gain in it for me.

Who are my enemies? Everyone who stands in the way of my providing a happy life for those I care about. Fortunately, they are very few. To act as if the US does not have enemies is insane--to make a Nixonesque joke of it simply revelling in that insanity.

We are in a war that was declared long before Bush ever entered the White House. To fail to see that is to court disaster.

littleflower, you hit the nail on the head, we have entered the second age of Chamberlain.

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:37 am

lurker wrote:I watched the sheep bleat in Grant Park, Simon--how apropos that Obama was crowned in a city famed for it's stockyards and slaughterhouses. Baaaa......

And, isn't it fun? Without recourse to a viable rebuttal I am simply accused of being filled with hatred.

I have not posted rude jokes about Obama. I have not delved into the insipid vulgarity that characterises those who would be mute in their hatred save for their fondness for mouthing obscenity.

I do not hate--there is no gain in it for me.

Who are my enemies? Everyone who stands in the way of my providing a happy life for those I care about. Fortunately, they are very few. To act as if the US does not have enemies is insane--to make a Nixonesque joke of it simply revelling in that insanity.

We are in a war that was declared long before Bush ever entered the White House. To fail to see that is to court disaster.

littleflower, you hit the nail on the head, we have entered the second age of Chamberlain.

blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah.

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:42 am

jkisha wrote:
blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah.

JK

lurker, look at this! we have reduced JK from knee-jerk gibberish to baby talk! awesome.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:45 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:more like the bleating sheep.

That is just the WHISPER of sweet BAAAAAAaaaaaaaa in your ear...

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:01 pm

lurker wrote: littleflower, you hit the nail on the head, we have entered the second age of Chamberlain.

actually, i am not ready to stick that label on obama yet. it will be interesting to see how he handles a crisis, and i am sure he'll get one.... i suspect that he will soon learn that it is impossible to be POTUS and not have enemies ... if he doesn't know it already.

i think he does have a lot more room to move internationally than mccain would have had, and that may very well be a good thing. let's give him some time...

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:32 pm

one hour ago...NC went to obama

North Carolina's 15 electoral votes brings Obama's total to 364 â€” nearly 100 more than necessary to win the White House â€” to McCain's 162. Missouri is the only state that remains too close to call, with McCain leading by several thousand votes.

who called it on the fucking nose...?

Simon of the Playa

Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 1796
Location: a constant state of Denio.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
obama 364, mccain 174
_________________
Let's all get together like one big family, and burn shit.

i did.