California passes prop 8

[gyre]

What counts is what is recognized immediately.
Hospitals tend to go by the instructions of the nearest relative.
It doesn't do any good to have binding contracts and win in court after access to a loved one was denied when it counted..

I'm told that if your relatives oppose your wishes when you're dying, you will lose unless you have a representative there to take action.

[unjonharley]

What counts is what is recognized immediately.
Hospitals tend to go by the instructions of the nearest relative.
It doesn't do any good to have binding contracts and win in court after access to a loved one was denied when it counted..

I'm told that if your relatives oppose your wishes when you're dying, you will lose unless you have a representative there to take action.

A couple of good law suits against hospitals would change the whole picture..

[theCryptofishist]

Some research regarding the history of marriage would be worthwhile. It isn't even always a religious ceremony.

Historian _____ Boswell put forth the idea that the idea of marriage for love, as opposed to property merger between two families, originated in the west between homosexual couples.

[**burn**]

For myself, I have always wondered why the need to tell the whole world ones's sexual preferences. I don't introduce myself to folks, "Hi, my name is blah, I am a heterosexual." Just something I have been curious about.

And another query (ha!):
What I choose to do sexually with my spouse affects no one. How would it pertain to me if the genders are different? If A and B are having C sex, am I affected? Why would I feel the need to institute a law?

[theCryptofishist]

The assumption is that everyone is heterosexual; if you don't say you're not, then you risk being sexually invisible. That invisibility led to horrendous suffering for homosexuals and other queer identities. Plenty of people will tell you about other "invisible" identities, religious, ethnicity, professional.

If you spend some time in a gay bar, you may well find yourself telling some woman, that, actually, you like boys.

[chiefdanfox]

What counts is what is recognized immediately.
Hospitals tend to go by the instructions of the nearest relative.
It doesn't do any good to have binding contracts and win in court after access to a loved one was denied when it counted..

I'm told that if your relatives oppose your wishes when you're dying, you will lose unless you have a representative there to take action.

A couple of good law suits against hospitals would change the whole picture..

Unjonharley,
Unfortunately those suits would probably fail, since there does not appear to be any binding law at this time. Gyre is right, and more to the point, a suit with a binding court order still looks like a fucko, when measured against a wife or a husband. My whole family could protest all kinds of bullshit if I died, and I'll bet (posthumously, of course) that my wife trumps all of their desires.

[chiefdanfox]

The assumption is that everyone is heterosexual; if you don't say you're not, then you risk being sexually invisible. That invisibility led to horrendous suffering for homosexuals and other queer identities. Plenty of people will tell you about other "invisible" identities, religious, ethnicity, professional.

If you spend some time in a gay bar, you may well find yourself telling some woman, that, actually, you like boys.

<edited>

[chiefdanfox]

For myself, I have always wondered why the need to tell the whole world ones's sexual preferences. I don't introduce myself to folks, "Hi, my name is blah, I am a heterosexual." Just something I have been curious about.

And another query (ha!):
What I choose to do sexually with my spouse affects no one. How would it pertain to me if the genders are different? If A and B are having C sex, am I affected? Why would I feel the need to institute a law?

I think it is about access to title. Men and women are treated equal under the law. Any man has a right to marry. Any woman has a right to marry. Now the state has a say about which individual that man or woman can marry? Really? Under Proposition 8, the state can weigh in on who I marry? Maybe the state should also adjudicate who has abortions, who lives beyond 57 and who gets slaves.

[goathead]

Maybe the STATE should get out of the "Marriage" business period.
Register everything as CIVIL UNIONS.

Make marriage nothing more then a religious ceremony.

[goathead]

I think is more because of people with attitudes like yours that it lost. You and the Mormon Church. I hope this causes them to lose their tax exempt status.

We did some more wining on that and got enough signatures to have the IRS re-examin their status. What the hell "right" did all of these people and organizations from "Outside" of California have in giving all the millions and millions of dollars to make sure the measure past?
JK

You lost so now the threats?

I feel the same way every time the fucking Sierra Club, and every other do gooder, fucking group, "CALIFUCKINFORNIANS" stick their nose into Nevada politics.

[Elderberry]

Maybe the STATE should get out of the "Marriage" business period.
Register everything as CIVIL UNIONS.

Make marriage nothing more then a religious ceremony.

We totally agree on this.

Regarding your other post, I didn't consider it a threat. I'm not big on religion, as anyone that reads my posts should know. I don't feel that religioin has any business poking it's nose into politics and if they do, I think they should lose their tax exempt status.

Someone fucks with you, you fuck with them right back.

JK

[Ugly Dougly]

Maybe the STATE should get out of the "Marriage" business period.
Register everything as CIVIL UNIONS.

Make marriage nothing more then a religious ceremony.

I'd rather get religion out of it. It's simply a contract for two people to keep fucking each other. What does the Virgin Mary etc have to do with this?

[MozyBonz]

I believe it's a lot easier to change the constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards," Huckabee said, referring to the need for a constitutional human life amendment and an amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.



http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 79265.aspx

[goathead]

Maybe the STATE should get out of the "Marriage" business period.
Register everything as CIVIL UNIONS.

Make marriage nothing more then a religious ceremony.

I'd rather get religion out of it. It's simply a contract for two people to keep fucking each other. What does the Virgin Mary etc have to do with this?

And which do you think is more doable?

The State getting rid of "marriage licenses" and replacing them with "civil union license's" ?

Or getting "marriage" out of religion?

Keep banging your head on the fucking wall if you like...
Don't snivel cause you have a headache....

[theCryptofishist]

The assumption is that everyone is heterosexual; if you don't say you're not, then you risk being sexually invisible. That invisibility led to horrendous suffering for homosexuals and other queer identities. Plenty of people will tell you about other "invisible" identities, religious, ethnicity, professional.

I'd like to add that you have no real idea how many homosexuals don't declare their sexuality. Unless they have a campy way of presenting themselves.

[Elderberry]

I believe it's a lot easier to change the constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards," Huckabee said, referring to the need for a constitutional human life amendment and an amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.



http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 79265.aspx

Fuck Mike Huckabee. Who would have ever thought such an amiable person could be such a danger to civil rights.

JK

[gyre]

People that think they can speak for god are truly evil.

[Eric]

For myself, I have always wondered why the need to tell the whole world ones's sexual preferences. I don't introduce myself to folks, "Hi, my name is blah, I am a heterosexual." Just something I have been curious about.

Y'know, I was planning on staying out of this thread because the "just get over it" people are really starting to piss me the fuck off (how about I take away some of your rights and tell you to get over it? Maybe we start with your guns?)

Then I see the absolute stupidity of this comment & I lose it. We're the ones telling "the whole world"???? Have you actually watched tv, looked a a magazine or seen a movie lately? Everywhere I look I'm seeing half naked straight people pushed in my face, straight school kids doing everything but fucking on the street, and yet if I dare to hold my boyfriends hand I'm "flaunting" the fact I'm gay, and should go just hide myself away.

Bite me.

A bare majority of people have just removed the civil rights of people they don't know, simply because they think they are in the right. I'll "get over it" the day I'm dead. I refuse to be a second class citizen in the country both of my parents fought for, and they refuse to see their son stripped of those rights as well.

[**burn**]

Eric - you misunderstood.

The point I was attempting to make is that one should be able to love whomever you wish. It does not affect anyone else. Just because I don't love the same gender you love doesn't make me feel inclined to pass a law or judgement on whom you can/cannot love.

My best friend is gay. She felt the need to tell me after keeping it a secret for 5 yrs. Why the secret? Why the need to tell me in an 'intervention' manner? It doesn't affect me. Love who you want to love. Your love does not affect me.

I am happy for anyone that has found love, no matter the shape or color. It is the most precious thing in my life.

[gyre]

If you're friends, why not tell you?
Maybe she felt like she was pretending to be someone else?

[Eric]

My best friend is gay. She felt the need to tell me after keeping it a secret for 5 yrs. Why the secret? Why the need to tell me in an 'intervention' manner? It doesn't affect me. Love who you want to love. Your love does not affect me.

When I came out in the 80's, I had to tell everyone the way your friend told you. One of my oldest and closest friends stopped speaking to me after I told him, and we haven't spoken in the 26 years since then. My (non spouse) & I have been together for 22 years, but he's still not out to most of his family as they are very conservative Catholics and uncomfortable with homosexuality.

I know people who've been thrown out of their houses, disowned, beaten up & even know of people murdered after they dared to admit they were gay. While it's nice that you feel who I (or we) love doesn't affect you, the sad truth is that a vast majority of people on this planet do think it affects them, and that they have the right to decide who we can and can't love. When we come out to our friends it's so we can include them fully in our lives, not so we can make a political point. Think how you would feel if you had to worry about ever mentioning the gender of your loved one, knowing it could cost you friends, family or even a job in many places, and how nice it would be to have friends who could be part of your life.

Things are slowly getting better, even in my lifetime, but as shown by prop 8 and a lot of the responses in this thread (by burners of all people) there is still a long way to go.

[wedeliver]

My best friend is gay. She felt the need to tell me after keeping it a secret for 5 yrs. Why the secret? Why the need to tell me in an 'intervention' manner? It doesn't affect me. Love who you want to love. Your love does not affect me.

When I came out in the 80's, I had to tell everyone the way your friend told you. One of my oldest and closest friends stopped speaking to me after I told him, and we haven't spoken in the 26 years since then. My (non spouse) & I have been together for 22 years, but he's still not out to most of his family as they are very conservative Catholics and uncomfortable with homosexuality.

I know people who've been thrown out of their houses, disowned, beaten up & even know of people murdered after they dared to admit they were gay. While it's nice that you feel who I (or we) love doesn't affect you, the sad truth is that a vast majority of people on this planet do think it affects them, and that they have the right to decide who we can and can't love. When we come out to our friends it's so we can include them fully in our lives, not so we can make a political point. Think how you would feel if you had to worry about ever mentioning the gender of your loved one, knowing it could cost you friends, family or even a job in many places, and how nice it would be to have friends who could be part of your life.

Things are slowly getting better, even in my lifetime, but as shown by prop 8 and a lot of the responses in this thread (by burners of all people) there is still a long way to go.

Eric, I enjoy reading your posts and consider you one of the more creative voices here. Thanks for sharing! and keeping it real!

[**burn**]

Eric -

Thank you for sharing with me what I really wanted to know. My spouse, my family and his family are the most important things in the world to me. I cannot imagine your world - where they are unable to look past the gender of the person you love and see that you are happily loved.

Maybe my friend was pretending to be someone else for so long that she felt that if she changed some of that dynamic that it would risk what we have. I had always known her to be happily married to a man and a wonderful mother of two. She is still happy and still a mom, just not married to a man. It hasn't changed our friendship a bit, and I never expected it to. My love for her would never be affected by who she loved. It just saddened me that she thought it would. But after your explanation, I can understand that now.

[littleflower]

i also enjoy your posts very much, eric...

it is interesting ... i live in a gay area, but worked many years in a very straight accountant sort of place. i usually carpooled with a gay friend, and it was striking, how open the other gay people at work became with me once they knew i was OK ... sort of like a light bulb turning on.

some day, hopefully, we will all be able to shine our lights without worrying that some closed mind will put them out...

[Eric]

I'm glad my posts have been helpful- I'm just trying to answer the questions honestly.

[theCryptofishist]

You did splendidly.

Boycott Utah!

[AntiM]

I live in Utah, and boycotting Utah is only going to hurt the non-Mormon business owners.

[Eric]

I've got to agree with AntiM- my parents live in Utah (and boy does my mom let loose if someone at her senior center makes anti-gay comments)

There are plenty of good Mormons out there, and it's the Mormon church that broke the section 501(c) rules defining tax exempt status (501(c)(3):no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation), go after the church.

[Ugly Dougly]

Keep banging your head on the fucking wall if you like...

A fucking wall? I heard about that. You probably get splinters from using it. That would hurt.

I don't have a dog in the fight, really, but it's starting to show the flaws in CA's system of propositions, and is probably why we have such a bad budget mess.

Another bright idea: What about polygamy? Why do we have laws against that? Maybe we should start a petition to repeal that section of the law.

[ygmir]

Keep banging your head on the fucking wall if you like...

A fucking wall? I heard about that. You probably get splinters from using it. That would hurt.

I don't have a dog in the fight, really, but it's starting to show the flaws in CA's system of propositions, and is probably why we have such a bad budget mess.

Another bright idea: What about polygamy? Why do we have laws against that? Maybe we should start a petition to repeal that section of the law.

Obviously, UD, you didn't make it to "glory hole camp", referring to your first line.........

I agree with the flaws in the proposition system........I had been in favor of it, and, in theory, I still think it's good, but, I now believe "the people" can't be trusted to do it, and, most of the props are driven by special interest and big money.......

Yeah, why is polygamy illegal?

well,
It'd probably make us poor, but very handsome, fellows . single'

Because, the really rich guys would still get all the chicks, and, it'd be ok to marry them, which, for them, or many of them, would be a plus........

NOTE**
I don't lump all women into the above statement. But, we all know there are many "gold diggers" out there, ........