The evolution of the United States of America

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:00 am

Can you say President Obama?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

I am a veteran. My service was in Vietnam. I demand a better future for my children and grandchildren. I demand health care for all in this great nation. I demand a social security net that provides a guaranteed income and is not subject to the whims of the market place. I demand that the United States abide by all international laws and treaties especially the Geneva Convention. I hope that the United States signs and becomes a leader in the Kyoto Protocol.

I wish for peace in the world. Perhaps the first steps have been taken.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:09 am

Now they only need to remove "under god" from that pledge and return it to how it was originally written.

JK

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:59 am

I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:12 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".

Hmmm, then why is it such a big issue to have 'under god' removed?

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:21 am

wedeliver wrote:Can you say President Obama?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

I am a veteran. My service was in Vietnam. I demand a better future for my children and grandchildren. I demand health care for all in this great nation. I demand a social security net that provides a guaranteed income and is not subject to the whims of the market place. I demand that the United States abide by all international laws and treaties especially the Geneva Convention. I hope that the United States signs and becomes a leader in the Kyoto Protocol.

I wish for peace in the world. Perhaps the first steps have been taken.

I can and will say "President Obama".

Demanding is such a harsh way of doing things.......

and, how do you pay for the above mentioned demands?.......

Social Security was formed as a " supplemental" money for retirement.......not the whole thing.........people were supposed to plan for their retirement themselves.........take responsibility, as such.

Sure, we all want universal healthcare. Great catch phrase. How do you do it, though?

To achieve your demands, it would seem a socialist state is in order.
And, if that's what you want, just say so........

"the rich and corporations" can't pay for everything.........so, it'll take confiscatory tax schedules to pay for a socialist state, which is exactly how they run.

I ask for freedom, to sink or swim, by my own hand. Don't help, or hinder me, just get out of my way.
I'll decide whom I help, and how. And know, I will help others..........

ok, rant knob back on low.........

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:23 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".

Yeah, right. My sister said "Under Zeus" in the pledge and was sent to the principal's office. Sure it's not illegal, but should kids in elementary school really be put in the ringer for a principle? And I bet that there are still a LOT of school districts who will do all sorts of nasty stuff to make sure you say the pledge. and I bet there are laws on the books, too. I don't know where, but they have got to be out there. State, city, county...

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:29 pm

I got suspended once for hollerin "who have the money" after "liberty and justice for all" in school.

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:43 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".
Yeah, right. My sister said "Under Zeus" in the pledge and was sent to the principal's office. Sure it's not illegal, but should kids in elementary school really be put in the ringer for a principle? And I bet that there are still a LOT of school districts who will do all sorts of nasty stuff to make sure you say the pledge. and I bet there are laws on the books, too. I don't know where, but they have got to be out there. State, city, county...

Had that been my kid, I would have been in the office putting the principle and her teacher through the ringer and demand a written appology from the teacher and the principle both--hell I might have even gotten the ACLU involved--it's exactly the type of thing they love to represent.

JK

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:05 pm

jkisha wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".
Hmmm, then why is it such a big issue to have 'under god' removed?

JK

Why is it such a big deal to let it stay?

Subsitute Larry Harvey if you like..

Under Jenifer Steele, at least she is a burner.

I don't see where anyone is making you say shit.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:16 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".
Yeah, right. My sister said "Under Zeus" in the pledge and was sent to the principal's office. Sure it's not illegal, but should kids in elementary school really be put in the ringer for a principle? And I bet that there are still a LOT of school districts who will do all sorts of nasty stuff to make sure you say the pledge. and I bet there are laws on the books, too. I don't know where, but they have got to be out there. State, city, county...

Waaaa, I said all sorts of things in school, being a smart ass comes with a price.
LOL, I wonder what sort of nasty stuff they can do to you today in school?

Where better to put them throught he "ringer" then in school.
Standing up for something normally comes with a price.
Being a smart ass came with a price.

In my case they just couldn't hit hard enough, nor could my old man.

Looking back I was wrong and they where in the right.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:17 pm

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all

goathead wrote:
jkisha wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:I don't know of any law that requires anyone to say "God".
Hmmm, then why is it such a big issue to have 'under god' removed?

JK
Why is it such a big deal to let it stay?

Subsitute Larry Harvey if you like..

Under Jenifer Steele, at least she is a burner.

I don't see where anyone is making you say shit.

Under God has played its part in this nation, but the time of public prayer is over and the words should be removed. They were added in 1954.

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:51 pm

Sorry, you know how there are some "non issues" that some people get real passionate about? This is one of them for me. I think we have much more important things to think about then fighting over is someone wants to say under god or not.

Plus if they insist on kicking me in the shins and stepping on my toes about it I will become a major pain in the but just to fuck with them.

You don't want to say the pledge, cool. DON'T.
You want to sub, "Under Your Thumb" for it, have fun.
You want to file court cases, well go fuck yourself.....

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:00 pm

goathead wrote:Sorry, you know how there are some "non issues" that some people get real passionate about? This is one of them for me. I think we have much more important things to think about then fighting over is someone wants to say under god or not.

Plus if they insist on kicking me in the shins and stepping on my toes about it I will become a major pain in the but just to fuck with them.

You don't want to say the pledge, cool. DON'T.
You want to sub, "Under Your Thumb" for it, have fun.
You want to file court cases, well go fuck yourself.....

Don't you live in Gerlach or some other small town? In which case I can understand why this would be a non-issue for you--all 50 of the people that live there are probably god fearing Christians. In the big city, we have citizens that are Muslims, Budists, Athiests, etc., Why should they have to say "under god" if they don't believe in any god? What if they just want to pledge their alegience to the flag? Seperation of Church and State, remember?

The devil is in the details.

I'd also like to see "In God We Trust" removed from U.S. Currency too.

JK

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:20 pm

jkisha wrote: Don't you live in Gerlach or some other small town? In which case I can understand why this would be a non-issue for you--all 50 of the people that live there are probably god fearing Christians. In the big city, we have citizens that are Muslims, Budists, Athiests, etc., Why should they have to say "under god" if they don't believe in any god? What if they just want to pledge their alegience to the flag? Seperation of Church and State, remember?

The devil is in the details.

I'd also like to see "In God We Trust" removed from U.S. Currency too.

JK

Do I sound like a God fearing asshole?
I camp with fucking gAWD and Cuntry, LMAO..Yeah, fuck you.

That being said just which God is being promotated?

If you don't believe are you offeneded ?

Is someone forcing you to say it? Hey if someone is I will come to your aid, I think you should have the right to not say anything at all if you want.

LMAO, then you wonder why some issues go down in flames that do matter like prop 8 over there.

Yeah, just keep fucking with people make fun of their fucking beliefs and fucking cry when they get pissed and don't vote for important issues JUST TO SPITE YOU.....

Can you say
FUCK YOUR DAY????

WAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa.......

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:26 pm

goathead wrote: Do I sound like a God fearing asshole?

god fearing? probably not. asshole? hmmmm....let me think about that a minute.

JK

betrdanevr · Post by **betrdanevr** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:37 pm

goathead wrote:Sorry, you know how there are some "non issues" that some people get real passionate about? This is one of them for me. I think we have much more important things to think about then fighting over is someone wants to say under god or not.

Plus if they insist on kicking me in the shins and stepping on my toes about it I will become a major pain in the but just to fuck with them.

You don't want to say the pledge, cool. DON'T.
You want to sub, "Under Your Thumb" for it, have fun.
You want to file court cases, well go fuck yourself.....

I have to agree with you.

Separation of church and state to me just means that people aren't *required* to say God if they believe in a different (or no) higher being.

Nobody has ever made anybody say "God" in a public school -- or they shouldn't have, anyway. If people want to stay quiet, then stay quiet.

I'm really sick of political correctness, and it even includes this subject.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:41 pm

jkisha wrote:
goathead wrote: Do I sound like a God fearing asshole?
god fearing? probably not. asshole? hmmmm....let me think about that a minute.

JK

Don't strain anything, I have a reputation I am trying to maintain.

Or are you just consentrating "Pounding It"?

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:45 pm

jkisha wrote:
Had that been my kid, I would have been in the office putting the principle and her teacher through the ringer and demand a written appology from the teacher and the principle both--hell I might have even gotten the ACLU involved--it's exactly the type of thing they love to represent.

JK

Apparently you didn't grow up in the Deep South.
I not only had to say it, but had to learn bible passages in public school in Mobile, AL.
But it only succeeded in making me believe that those people are fucked-up assholes.
It's still like that down there. Now I have a 15-year-old nephew that lives in that same area (who I'm trying to convince to move here and get the hell OUT of there!) that has several friends he's not allowed to visit because he doesn't go to church. (It's the other parents' deal, not his). He knows enough to avoid the whole topic of religion even among his buddies.

Oh, and almost everyone is panicking about the election outcome. They are actually stocking up on food and gas for generators and other such stuff, as if for a holocaust. They seriously think that The End Is Near because a black man will be President.

I'm not making this shit up!

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:04 pm

betrdanevr wrote: I have to agree with you.

Separation of church and state to me just means that people aren't *required* to say God if they believe in a different (or no) higher being.

Nobody has ever made anybody say "God" in a public school -- or they shouldn't have, anyway. If people want to stay quiet, then stay quiet.

I'm really sick of political correctness, and it even includes this subject.

I know what you mean, the words hmmm, anal retentive, busy body, fucking jerk, normally come to mind when I hear about stuff like this.

Then I hear the immortal words of wisdom from
Sam Kinison
There's always 30 or 40 Christians standing around, saying, "It's a shame that he has to die." And Jesus is saying, "Well, maybe I wouldn't have to if somebody would get a ladder and pair of pliers!!"

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:15 pm

goathead wrote:
jkisha wrote:
goathead wrote: Do I sound like a God fearing asshole?
god fearing? probably not. asshole? hmmmm....let me think about that a minute.

JK
Don't strain anything, I have a reputation I am trying to maintain.

Or are you just consentrating "Pounding It"?

My avatar does all the work so I don't have too!

JK

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:19 pm

betrdanevr wrote:

Nobody has ever made anybody say "God" in a public school -- or they shouldn't have, anyway. If people want to stay quiet, then stay quiet.

You're right, they shouldn't... but in the South they most certainly do! A lot more than just saying "under God"; bible studies are taught in public god damn school! And they are supported by the vast majority down there. The school officials and the police aren't going to help, they're in on it too. It would take major outside help to fight it. I know it sounds unreal to normal, rational people from elsewhere, but here and now, in 2008 in the U.S.A., that shit is still happening.

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:24 pm

[quote="jkisha]

My avatar does all the work so I don't have too!

JK[/quote]

Maybe you should hire a new one?
He never seems to finish.....

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:32 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:You're right, they shouldn't... but in the South they most certainly do! A lot more than just saying "under God"; bible studies are taught in public god damn school! And they are supported by the vast majority down there. The school officials and the police aren't going to help, they're in on it too. It would take major outside help to fight it. I know it sounds unreal to normal, rational people from elsewhere, but here and now, in 2008 in the U.S.A., that shit is still happening.

LOL, down there I would probably be in trouble.

Actually the Bible sudies wouldn't bother me either, as long as they also taught the Torah, Koran, Native American beliefs, and on and on...

Maybe help us understand and respect everyones beliefs...

Post by **Elderberry** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:42 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
betrdanevr wrote:

Nobody has ever made anybody say "God" in a public school -- or they shouldn't have, anyway. If people want to stay quiet, then stay quiet.

You're right, they shouldn't... but in the South they most certainly do! A lot more than just saying "under God"; bible studies are taught in public god damn school! And they are supported by the vast majority down there. The school officials and the police aren't going to help, they're in on it too. It would take major outside help to fight it. I know it sounds unreal to normal, rational people from elsewhere, but here and now, in 2008 in the U.S.A., that shit is still happening.

Ya, it was portrayed pretty well in Religilous and Jesus Camp too.

JK

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:51 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: My sister said "Under Zeus" in the pledge and was sent to the principal's office.

Sounds like a good lawsuit!
I get weird looks when I tell people that I worship the Olympians. I just love the look and wait for them to start questioning me about it. They shut up pretty fast.

Captain Goddammit wrote:They seriously think that The End Is Near because a black man will be President.

For Their way of life the end is truly here. the end of blindness, ignorance, lies and the pursuit of Bubba-ness

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:40 am

I think my loathing of those who adher to the various cults of the One God has been established, so let me say this--

You're right, they shouldn't... but in the South they most certainly do! A lot more than just saying "under God"; bible studies are taught in public god damn school! And they are supported by the vast majority down there. The school officials and the police aren't going to help, they're in on it too. It would take major outside help to fight it. I know it sounds unreal to normal, rational people from elsewhere, but here and now, in 2008 in the U.S.A., that shit is still happening.

Bible study sessions are held AFTER school hours and are not compulsory, No one is 'in' on anything. The People are utilizing the building their tax dollars paid for. They also have exercise classes, art classes and all manner of things that get held in schools when they are not open.

It would not be outside 'help'--it would be outside 'interference'. It would be an imposition of one person's beliefs on anothers.

The NAACP holds meetings at a local school--they often open/close with a nice non-denominational--but still quite Christian-- prayer. Should that be stopped?

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:08 am

alright, lets get this straight....sarah Palin and the ASSembly of God believe these are the end-times.

on Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement, the stock MaRKet dropped 777 points, and this was received in the fundagelical community as a certain sign from god.

i swear to bob, these people WANT the end of the world, so they will be Justified in their abject lunacy, and also so they can be beamed up by St. Scotty of the RApture, along with all of the other pure christians.

i have never in my life seen or heard a bunch of people as IDIOTIC and also FERVANT as these social and intellectual retards*.

*burning man rave kids notwithstanding

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:37 am

I guess we should be thankful that it didn't drop 666 points. The world surely would have ended then.

JK

lurker · Post by **lurker** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:28 am

on Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement, the stock MaRKet dropped 777 points, and this was received in the fundagelical community as a certain sign from god.

What is it DVD loves to say?

Oh yeah, citation, please.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:34 am

http://oregonseer.blogspot.com/

http://www.westsidechurch.net/blogs/wes ... -a-message

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct200 ... 1030-1.htm

http://www.helium.com/items/1205868-god ... ash?page=2

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2093412/posts

is that enough, or do you want more?

The evolution of the United States of America

The evolution of the United States of America

Re: The evolution of the United States of America