Sexual Violence

[TestesInSac]

TAZ -

I'm going to have to recommend that everyone disregard your post.

What a silly, blame-the-victim, lets-act-like-its-the-default-world, women-should-know-their-place, thing to say.

- Pets.

Sorry, Pets, I didn't get any of that from Taz' post. At most, he's saying that the potential victim (male or female) can choose to make themselves less vulnerable, or ignore reality and make themselves more vulnerable. The playa is not far enough removed from the "default world" to go trapsing around so altered that you lack the cognitive skills to see trouble and avoid it. Moreover, I don't think there's any place on Earth, including BRC, where it's advisable for women to stumble around alone in the dark.

I'd guess that practically all instances of sexual battery or attempted sexual battery are preventable by simply going out with a trustworthy friend.

[PetsUntilEaten]

If my safety depends on not being allowed outside my home unless accompanied by someone else - then kill me now.

If you are saying that women shouldn't be alone on the playa - period - sober or not - - - wow that's the saddest thing I ever heard.

I will not live like that. If they wanna come get me - let them. I can't walk to the bathrooms alone at night? or what ? I deserve it? I should have known better? I should have been more carefull?

I'm all for self-reliance & taking pre-cautions - I even lock my bike. But if I'm stupid for walking by myself - what does that make the guy who tries to attack me? I would rather defend my life & body than give up the freedom that men have without question in the default world - men get hurt, robbed & killed when alone or with friends - we don't tell them to bring a friend when they leave home or camp.

Lets admit that this rapist needs to be punished in the harshest possible way. Lets admit that he's the problem. We can do some things to limit our vulernability to predators - but past that - what?

I know that everone on this board has a different way of dealing with or handling this issue. Unfortunately, I don't believe I should make everyday rules & precautions to deal with rare events. A rapist should be found & dealt with - not allowed for.

When I'm not sober I stay with friends because its safer in general in terms of weather, biking accidents, getting lost & other common problems (& who else is going to make me a grilled cheese when I'm too high to work the stove) ---- I will not make allowances for rapists at burningman.

I dare that motherfucker to come get me.

[PetsUntilEaten]

I certainly do not believe the ones responsible will own up to the offense and confess.
I think that your friend has to assume more personal responsibilty for their vulnerability.

cas - if thats not blaming the victim - what is?

[blyslv]

When I'm not sober I stay with friends because its safer in general

And it's a helluva lot more fun!

[Martina]

I am a young woman, and this was my first year at Burning Man. Suffice it to say, there's a lot I don't know. That being said, here are some of my observations and ideas:

Although I have fun flaunting my own young, firm, and perky body, I understand this to be a dangerous endeavor. My sexy little body is provocative, and tempting, and sometimes not appropriate for exposure. For instance: I love to bicycle half naked on those rare and wonderful hot San Francisco days. Given the cat calls and propositions I receive when fully clothed, however, I know better than to unleash my taut, barely legal body on my seemingly primitive neighbors.

I make choices that contribute positively to my community, and part of that is understanding and compromising with my surrounding conditions. Instead of arousing the men of the SF Mission district to levels of sexual hysteria, I just sunbathe on my roof. I deal with potential problems by taking proactive steps towards preventative solutions.

Do the rules of San Francisco apply to Black Rock City? Yes, and no. Although nudity is legal in BRC, the ways of human nature are universal. Men receive high levels of sexual stimulation through sight. The exposed skin of a healthy female is often a very sexy site to behold.

An erection can be a very nice thing, depending on the subject at hand. My father's erection is something I have no interest in dealing with, though I respect his right to have it and trust his ability to deal with it. That random guy who was lurking in the shadow on the outskirts of the boom box's party crowd might have had an erection ... the way he was looking at me certainly suggested as much. Did I trust his ability to deal with it? Not necessarily. BMorg doesn't discriminate (I'm happy to say) so lord only knows who that man was and where he likes to stick it. Good thing I had my in-charge boyfriend, clothes and wits about me. I was able to have fun, feel sexy, get laid, and be safe that night, due to my own good planning.

Something terrible could have happened to me that night, no matter what I planned for. If someone grabbed me and gagged me while my boyfriend was distracted by some other girls naked and gyrating ass I couldn't have done much. Equally true, if I had stumbled off, naked and naive, into the night without clothes or a man to protect me, and had been drugged, and had been raped, it wouldn't have been my fault. The self respect to own responsibility for my own safety is mine to take or leave, however. As far as I can tell, this is true for all women.
What do you think?

[TestesInSac]

If my safety depends on not being allowed outside my home unless accompanied by someone else - then kill me now.

Safety is relative, and can be directly tied to sobriety. In my neighborhood, you could feel reasonably safe from sexual assault stumbling around drunk at night. OTOH, you could be cited for it.

If you are saying that women shouldn't be alone on the playa - period - sober or not - - - wow that's the saddest thing I ever heard.

I meant that you choose to elevate your level of risk if you choose stumble around, seriously altered, in the dark, by yourself, regardless of where you are.

I can't walk to the bathrooms alone at night?

I meant the open playa. Needing company to the JOTS would be extreme anywhere.

...men get hurt, robbed & killed when alone or with friends - we don't tell them to bring a friend when they leave home or camp.

Actually, camping, hunting or fishing alone, male or female, is usually cautioned against. You can, but you increase your risk.

Lets admit that this rapist needs to be punished in the harshest possible way. Lets admit that he's the problem.

No problem there.

Unfortunately, I don't believe I should make everyday rules & precautions to deal with rare events.

I do, commensurate with the level of risk.

When I'm not sober I stay with friends because its safer in general in terms of weather, biking accidents, getting lost & other common problems (& who else is going to make me a grilled cheese when I'm too high to work the stove)

That also protects you against predators, which is what I'm advocating.

I will not make allowances for rapists at burningman.

Then make allowances for not being able to grill your own grilled cheese sandwiches, and you'll be okay.

I dare that motherfucker to come get me.

With you, that could be his last move. Just be sure to MOOP afterward.

[Booker]

I dare that motherfucker to come get me.

Snort! He'd get what he deserved, I'm fairly certain. This is a woman who knows how to deal with a situation gone bad.

I hafta say I like the attitude Pets and Tempest are putting out there. These are real people who deserve to have the lives they choose and not have to cower behind some man. Refuse to be diminished and contained! Just like elsewhere, watch for problem situations and avoid them. Then if some m.f.er violates your space, know how to neutralize his attack and take the initiative to act before he does. The large majority of potential attackers will be able to detect that ability and look for an easier target.

[drowned_saved]

i'm sorry, but i see this in fairly simple terms:

one can act in accordance with what is (the realist); in accordance with what ought to be (the idealist); or in some combination of the two (the pragmatist).

it isn't terribly sexy, but the last of these might keep you safe AND sane.

[PetsUntilEaten]

I know better than to unleash my taut, barely legal body on my seemingly primitive neighbors.

. . . . Equally true, if I had stumbled off, naked and naive, into the night without clothes or a man to protect me, and had been drugged, and had been raped, it wouldn't have been my fault.

Get this - Its NEVER your fault. NEVER. Why is murder or theft always a crime - but when its rape we talk about temptation & the responsibility of the victim? Ludicris.

Also - rapist attack 80 year old women in nursing homes - how is this a crime of passion? your "barely legal body" has nothing to do with it. This is not an issue of temptation - as the "rich man in a poor neighborhood" analogy would suggest. Young & attractive women are no more likely to be raped than old, ugly ones - this is a classic and lovely device for keeping you in line, dear. You can kill your own goddamn spiders & fight your own battles - frankly, I wouldn't want my man fighting my battles for me. I love men. I love the way they smell & taste & feel - but I do not want one because I need him to "protect" me. Besides no one can protect you from life or other people.

Hell some serial killers walk right into your house & rape you while you lie next to your dead husband - yeah - you should buy better locks - get a better security system and spend more money on defence. (ok sorry - that was maybe too much - but damn it!)

You know - I set up my entire camp with a girlfriend of mine - our virgin male camper couldn't believe "two chicks built all that." And after a traffic accident I witnessed while unpacking my van at home - the woman who caused the thing totally fell apart (she wasn't hurt) & started asking us to call her husband. - it made me sooo frickin sad. The woman who got hit got a bit thrashed - but was concerned for the first woman's health.

What is wrong with people?

Bad things happen to strong, intelligent people - men & women. Rape is an bad thing that mostly happens to women - but it does not mean that we should go run & hide or ask for special protection.

- pets.

ps - - - and thanks for the vote of confidence, Booker.

[PJ]

...one can act in accordance with what is (the realist); in accordance with what ought to be (the idealist); or in some combination of the two (the pragmatist).

Well-said.

[Lydia Love]

young, firm, and perky body

provocative, and tempting, and sometimes not appropriate for exposure

unleash my taut, barely legal body

I do not for a second believe this writer is a woman. or sentient for that matter.

[PetsUntilEaten]

lydia -

I was tempted to think the same - but then I also know that women - particularly young ones can be the worst bearers of sexism of all. so now i'm conflicted.

[Lydia Love]

I'm sticking with it... unless she submits herself to the "Kiamix Test" - posting a picture of herself with her barely legal finger in her taut nubile left ear.

I don't have a test I can think of for sentience.

[TawnyGnosis]

Ms. Young perky and firm is ridiculous whether or not s/he be a man or woman.

Our entire camp consisted of about seven women when we arrived and we set the entire thing up by ourselves. No men around at all, and was that astounding? I don't think so. Pounding rebar, climbing on trucks to tie shade structure, and everything else that required muscle was all executed by us.

When we left and took down camp, there was one male but we still did most of the work ourselves.

I'm not asking for sexual violence when I walk around by myself, I'd like to see them try anything. Tom, like usual you are fairly absurd in your observations. Pets doesn't need a chaperon when walking around on the open playa, even though you probably do.

[precipitate]

I dunno if it's female, but it's certainly been reading too much bad porn.

[Lydia Love]

reading too much bad porn.

And very possibly sending me a great number of emails

[Sunset804]

My post was a complete change in subject from the rape case previously mentioned (the woman who was drugged and raped while passed out).

My post (which I have now deleted) was too sharp of a change in subject. I was talking about men who manipulate and push and push and push and then are proud of their "conquest" (getting their way). He felt he had "seduced" me. I felt very coerced/manipulated. The issue was true seduction is not manipulating a person into submission but it brings forth genuine desire. This man thought he was "seducing" with all his manipulating behavior when really my experience was that he was coercing/borderline forcing himself. This creates a foulness instead of the "love" sex should bring.

(I appologize for being extremely unclear in the first post)

[Stormy]

..

[PetsUntilEaten]

Lydia, Tempest, Precipitate (sp?) - l fucking o l .

Sunset - I'm so very sorry. My first reaction was to ask you to post who and what camp this guy was - but that's really beside the point. If I may be so bold as to offer advice - please tell this guy what he has done (if you haven't already) - if you don't want to hold him totally accountable - at least he should be aware that he offended & upset you & basically pushed you into what sounds like a date rape of sorts (but thats for you alone to judge - since you were there) . I know that he may be defensive or aggressive - but you owe it to yourself & possibly other playa females to set him straight. You'd be amazed at how many seemly defiant, rude people actually reflect on their behavior after you talk to them. It may not seem fruitful at first - but its worth a shot if you're up for it.

The good news is that you'll probably never put up the tinyiest bit of this horrible crap again - and are strong enough to help others & inform other playa people that this kind thing goes on.

[Stormy]

I don't see how that isn't a violation. If you do nothing, how do you feel knowing that he will most likely do the same thing to someone else?

If you need a place to camp next year, please drop me a line and I can hook you up with people who would never expect sex as payment for pounding some rebar into the ground or struggling with pvc pipes for a few hours.

I'm sorry that you met the lowest common denominator on the playa your first year.

[Stormy]

OK, just a wild fucked up Stormy kinda hunch, but... My guess is that the frat boys buy their tickets closer to the event than the artists and people setting up legitimate theme camps. If people are serious about Burning Man, why not expect them to purchase their tickets by August 1st or 15th or whatever?

Scuse me for being macabre, but I think we need to hear every fucked up story about how some jackass thought it was OK to use someone else's body without express permission. If I hear two dozen rape stories, then I'm not far off in assuming that there are 48 to 60 that I didn't hear.

I feel a Take Back the Night evening coming on...

[Lydia Love]

Jesus fucking god.

1. If you feel violated kneecap the fucker with a rebar stake. Better yet do it legally - prosecute. It's hard. It's not easy. But it's possible you can take him out of circulation. It's possible you'll help someone else as you help yourself.

2. You did not deserve this.

3. You didn't deserve it but you can grow from this. You can recognize the manipulation and kneecap someone before they get that close.

4. Get tested. You know you gotta.

5. PM me if you need to talk.

[ARTiculate]

This is going to seem off the wall, however I know who the author of this thread is. The sad yet curious fact is, in the past, he has been accused of the exact, very same things he rants about. Although I haven't been in contact with this person for many years and his behavior was allegedly off the Playa, I find it odd, yet telling that he ranted on about it. Perhaps it's a reverse act of contrition. I hope he's better now and has somehow became respectful of an individual's boundaries and a crusader for Women's rights.

The story posted by Sunset804 is sickening and that guy's act inexcusable. Sister, although it seems that you 'let it go' I hope you don't beat yourself up too much in doing so. If you have this person's contact information, perhaps you should consider following up and confronting this person. There is help available from your Playa sisters and Rape Crisis Centers.

[Stormy]

This is going to seem off the wall, however I know who the author of this thread is. The sad yet curious fact is, in the past, he has been accused of the exact, very same things he rants about. Although I haven't been in contact with this person for many years and his behavior was allegedly off the Playa, I find it odd, yet telling that he ranted on about it. Perhaps it's a reverse act of contrition. I hope he's better now and has somehow became respectful of an individual's boundaries and a crusader for Women's rights.

The story posted by Sunset804 is sickening and that guy's act inexcusable. Sister, although it seems that you 'let it go' I hope you don't beat yourself up too much in doing so. If you have this person's contact information, perhaps you should consider following up and confronting this person. There is help available from your Playa sisters and Rape Crisis Centers.

'Scuse me, just a little more info here please. I'm hearing accused and alleged. Who is this?

[Chimp]

Men can fucking suck, I am a guy and I wandered around the playa alone high most of the time, I didn't see any shit go down but christ 'can I rub my dick against you?' the art of romance isn't dead hey? Send this motherfucker packing to London Sunset and I can get a crew together in Camden to cut his dick off.

I don't go to the playa with the intention of getting laid and it really depresses me that some absolute cunts (sorry people but we apply this word to shiteating swine in London, it has practically lost all gender association and is now reserved only to describe the flotsam and jetsam of humanity I don't know what that says about our culture but I digress) go there precisely for that reason. We live in a violent phallocentric nightmare folks where sick and uneducated people get their kicks causing displeasure to others - this often means poor excuses for 'men' acting out their sick little fantasies. On the subject of nakedness, if you wanna be naked just do it, it is their fucking problem not yours, Women shouldn't have to worry about this shit out there. For christ's sake even if you are an apple pie eating jock or whatever can't you at least try to respect people's rights to do what they like regardless of their sex or your own pathetic adolescent prepubescent ideas about women?

Oh I don't know, sex really is not on the agenda for me at BM (I am not quasimodo by the way or a eunuch, it just doesn't rate high on my 'things to do in the middle of nowhere list') by the way - to the girl that went on about her 'taut, tempting body' or whatever, that is retarded kid, if you think I turn into some sort of uncontrollable lustfull Vaughn Bode cartoon at the sight of a naked body you can fuck off. I saw one guy go up to Man Bar at one point and ask where he could find drunken chicks , Man Bar told him to get fucked as did I but jesus, it is all just soo depressing -

I think anyone caught slipping drugs into drinks or so on should be put inside the man on Saturday night and burnt to death and the ticket should read, any total wankers attending and leering at women in a disgusting manner voluntarily assume the risk of death in a pagan ritual or extreme torture at the hands of some very butch men from castro in San francisco, thata might make them think again.

Guys, don't fucking approach women and ask for hugs and shit, especially if you are just trying to cop a feel - if you are meant to meet someone you will, often they will find you and by behaving in that way YOU LOOK SUCH A WEEDY LITTLE GIMP, I kissed about two women at Burning man this year when accosted by them, it was pleasant, pretty funny ( the naked girl with 'The Kiss Me If your'e British board' was very funny) and then over, dig it? oh well i think i have vented enough steam - I hate being a man sometimes because we get lumped in with some real scum, date rapists are not men, they are the lowest form of life imaginable - I hope they rot in some particularly nasty form of hell.

[ARTiculate]

'Scuse me, just a little more info here please. I'm hearing accused and alleged. Who is this?

I know, it seems odd, however the person who started the thread, Phoenix, has been accused of the act he ranted about. I have not been to Burning Man, I am an artist and choose not to trek to Black Rock City. Yet, I have many friends who do and follow what's going on. I saw the thread, read Phoenix's profile and from the link to his website, know this person.

[orlando]

damn..the bullshit gets thicker each year.

guess I'll have to bring a tazer or something next time.

yeah I don't beleive that post with the 'taut barely legal ' business was a woman either.

one of the reasons burningman is so great- so freeing - so different -- is because women feel freer there, some even say they dominate the vibe there---- how to preserve and expand that in a timeit seems to be contracting...

also to the good guys --our rage isn't directed at you -- you know who you are.

and to the pathetic unclefuckers that can't get any unless they take it-- watch out-- the girls are wise to you. next year maybe you'll go home with a fried winky -- or maybe we'll tie you up to the man and piant RAPIST in menstrual blood all over you-after branding it on your ass.

:twisted:

[Isotopia]

Heed Lydia. Take her advice.

Strong mojo momma is she says my whispering heart.

Take-no-shit-strong-ass-women advice is about as good as it fucking gets in my world.

Take a breath, stand up straight and follow her.

So say the spirits of the sisters who raised me.

[bschlong]

At the risk of sounding rude and bringing The Wrath upon myself:

Sunset804 wrote:

Starting immediately the very first night the guy responsible for creating the camp was complaining about all the work he did.....

Uhh...HE owns volunteering to set up camp, and then complaining about it.
(I assume there was no gun to his head?)

His constant complaining made me feel guilty and in debt.

YOU own feeling guilty . I assume that you had not made promises to act or perform a covenant in exchange for staying at the camp?

On Friday we went on a short bike ride together (all week I did things alone---I felt guilty about avoiding him.)

Getting better...guilt on top of guilt...you are really buying into yourself !

We ended up going into some dome and nobody else was in the dome. At first we were just kissing. Which I didn't mind. I was only interested in foreplay activities.

You really didn't mind...or was it like "confession"???

We had only been kissing for a short time when he said "let me rub my dick on you".

You didn't flee !!!??? Your kidding...right !!!?

I did NOT want penetration and our agreement was external rubbing NOT penetration.

Did you get that in writing ?

The guy intentionally and purposefully penetrated.

Did you bother reaching for a knife and cutting it off ???

I totally resisted but he was very manipulative and also refused to put on a condom

Uhhh...when and how did you resist ?


Girls, guys, girly girls, guyly girls, girly guys, guly guys....help me out here. This has got to be a joke...right!!?

Did I miss something...

What I get is she wasn't particularly attracted to this guy, but agreed to hang with this guy out of "guilt"... was she really OK with, enjoying the necking and beyound, untill the point of penetration !?! I'm really unclear on this !?!

Understand that I begin to get sarcastic and factious above, where I quote her and comment to present my viewpoint ... bottom line is I DON"T see where she writes "I said no, I tried to get up and walk away but he _______? or "the guy threatened to tell my mommy on me so I had to comply".

PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME !?!

Unless she is a minor (with a lot to learn...);

If this isn't a joke, if she never said no and walked away and wasn't physically restrained, and she is a coqnicent(sp?) human being above the age of 18 (or there about) , if those who say they believe she was raped (date or otherwise) aren't humoring, appeasing or comforting her I'll bend over and humbly take what ever anyone wants to put my way! ( And I am 100% homogeneous hetro male-not that I don't appreciate a cute butt on any species- and I am not a masochist, and do not appreciate strange people putting strange things up my ass )

I mean it sounds like the guy needs to take some lessons in cooth (sp?) and righteousness, but...unless there's more to the story than she is comfortable reciting, it sounds like the gal needs some guidance and help with simple, rudimentary assertiveness !

P.S. if anyone claims that they ARE NOT placating her, and you want to put something up MY ass, I reserve the right to change my mind, say no and walk away. Guilt Free.

"When I die I don't want no part of heaven
I would not do heavens work well

I pray the devil comes and takes me
To stand in the fiery furnaces of hell"

From "Ghost of Tom Joad"
Bruce Springsteen 1995

[PetsUntilEaten]

wow - that was nice & frivolous.

she still gets to tell this guy he was a total asshole - cuz he was.

you want to break it down word for word your own way - fine - but i think she's owning up to her responsiblity & short comings - while you're just restating what she already says to make a point she's already made about herself - except you're just acting like you stubled on some unseen truth that she & we are too stupid to see & being kinda rude about it to boot.

ya big tool.