California passes prop 8

[lurker]

Jeez, yyou get all upset. It was just a vagary of thought. It just struck me that the Mormon stance might, in some part, be influenced by what was done to them.

I know quite a few gay polys--most who HOPE an acceptance of gay marriage is that 'slippery slope' that will allow individuals to decide just how they're married.

And I agree with them--I'm a big fan of the varfious marriage types in Heinlein books--and I can't see a reason why not.

But I did wonder about the Mormons...

[Elderberry]

does it say somewhere in the bible polygamy isn't ok?

Actually the bible is rife (over 125 mentions) with references to "wives"; but those are passages that are conveniently not cited.

JK

[ygmir]

does it say somewhere in the bible polygamy isn't ok?

Actually the bible is rife (over 125 mentions) with references to "wives"; but those are passages that are conveniently not cited.

JK

Thats kind of what I remember.........I'm no biblical scholar, but, have read both books.........
seems it's not really defined or commented on directly.
More of a "human" concept.....

[theCryptofishist]

I'm a big fan of the varfious marriage types in Heinlein books

I have a feeling that those work out better in novels than in real life. Of course, I have a feeling that the women in Heinlein's novels work out better there than in real life.

[AntiM]

But there's simple adult polygamy ... and I don't give a hoot who does what with whom, just don't pop out kids and then beg for welfare and food stamps (been done). No, the reason polygamy is such a hot topic in Utah is that the "FLDS" or the fundamentalist mormon church, and yes, they're verry, very different than LDS and are reviled by mainstream mormons ... they home school the children in isolation, throw the young men and boys out; there are middle-aged men marrying their teenage nieces and step-daughters whom are all starry-eyed at being grown up sister wives. It's disgusting.

Technically I'm a mormon because I've never asked to be removed from the rolls. I haven't been to church since I was 18, and I haven't believed in any of it since about 14. I have to write that letter, I guess. Going to hell anyway.

I have polygamous ancestors, and some of that pioneer polygamy has a weird and complex history ... the men died on the trail, and the women were married to established men once they hit the valley. Happened to one of my g-great-greats, he liked to watch the handcart companies coming in at Pioneer Park; one day Brigham Young told him he had a new second wife, a young widow fresh off the trail. Pretty sure she was one of my g-g-grandmothers. No point to that, just rambling.

[wedeliver]

But there's simple adult polygamy ... and I don't give a hoot who does what with whom, just don't pop out kids and then beg for welfare and food stamps (been done). No, the reason polygamy is such a hot topic in Utah is that the "FLDS" or the fundamentalist mormon church, and yes, they're verry, very different than LDS and are reviled by mainstream mormons ... they home school the children in isolation, throw the young men and boys out; there are middle-aged men marrying their teenage nieces and step-daughters whom are all starry-eyed at being grown up sister wives. It's disgusting.

Technically I'm a mormon because I've never asked to be removed from the rolls. I haven't been to church since I was 18, and I haven't believed in any of it since about 14. I have to write that letter, I guess. Going to hell anyway.

I have polygamous ancestors, and some of that pioneer polygamy has a weird and complex history ... the men died on the trail, and the women were married to established men once they hit the valley. Happened to one of my g-great-greats, he liked to watch the handcart companies coming in at Pioneer Park; one day Brigham Young told him he had a new second wife, a young widow fresh off the trail. Pretty sure she was one of my g-g-grandmothers. No point to that, just rambling.

Trying to learn here, but can we call you "Jack" and could you 'splain that term Anti-m? (hope that isn't rude)

[lurker]

I have a feeling that those work out better in novels than in real life. Of course, I have a feeling that the women in Heinlein's novels work out better there than in real life.

Well, I know of one heileinian style serial marriage, two S-groups, and one polyandry that seem to be flourishing. And the women seem to be doing just fine.

They seem to try to expand with couples, if that helps, and it's often the women who do the expanding.

[Toolmaker]

Not sure if this has already been posted on here..

http://jointheimpact.com/
http://daywithoutagay.org/

Both sites concerned with gay equality activism

Dec 10th is a workstoppage in protest of Prop 8 etc..

Hope everything went well with todays action.



[quote]
For Immediate Release

Contact:
Amy Balliett & Willow Witte
1-866-573-6776
[email protected]
[email protected]

Exactly one week since Amy Balliett and Willow Witte announced a national call to action for the LGBTQ community to protest Proposition 8 and to fight for equal rights across the nation, the community has come together at global numbers exceeding 1 million (According to early estimates from National Social Pages, and the JoinTheImpact.wetpaint.com social network). “We will come out tomorrow in numbers this world has not yet seen,â€

[Arminius]

what's the difference between gay civil rights, and, any other civil rights ?

An oversimplification would be.....
Same sex couples are asking to redefine the definition of marriage. I share the same view as Senator Obama. I think civil unions are a reasonable compromise. My personal religion advocates polygamy. A tradition that goes back thousands of years. But I can understand that legalising my definition of marriage could create problems in a western society.

The problem with hate crime laws is that you're are saying that the lives of some people are more valuable than other people. Rather than trying to enforce THOUGHT CRIMES. Why don't we brutalise ALL violent criminals?If you are a violent criminal I do not care if you killed my mother in a botched car jacking, or if you killed her for over her religion, race, or sexual orientation.

Anyway....I don't hate anyone. This is just one persons observations :)

[gyre]

I think commercial crimes are far worse than so-called hate crimes.

Would you feel better if you were killed for five dollars?

What a relief!
It had nothing to do with me.

[Elderberry]

I think commercial crimes are far worse than so-called hate crimes.

Would you feel better if you were killed for five dollars?

What a relief!
It had nothing to do with me.

I think that misses the point. You might not have been killed for that five dollars if you weren't additionally the target of a hate crime. (Of course, this is being over simplistic, but does illustrate the point of hate crime legislation. Obviously you wouldn't feel any better getting killed regardless the reason. Actually, you wouldn't feel anything either way--you'd be dead. )

JK

[Elderberry]

But I can understand that legalising my definition of marriage could create problems in a western society.

How?

JK

[theCryptofishist]

Same sex couples are asking to redefine the definition of marriage. I share the same view as Senator Obama. I think civil unions are a reasonable compromise.

Only if all civil unions are called civil unions (i.e. marraige by the state) and if all unions in a church are called marraiges. And if the tax rights, visitations in hospital rights, joint property rights, etc., are the same. Otherwise we're back to separate but equal, when separate is not and cannot be equal.

[Ugly Dougly]

The definition is not being redefined; your assumptions about its definition are being redefined.

[theCryptofishist]

Nicely put, UD.

[Eric]

The definition is not being redefined; your assumptions about its definition are being redefined.

Holy crap. I think that's the best response to the "redefinition" argument I've ever heard.

Do you mind if I pass it on to some of my activist friends?

[Elderberry]

The definition is not being redefined; your assumptions about its definition are being redefined.

Holy crap. I think that's the best response to the "redefinition" argument I've ever heard.

Do you mind if I pass it on to some of my activist friends?

I agree.

JK

[gyre]

I think commercial crimes are far worse than so-called hate crimes.

Would you feel better if you were killed for five dollars?

What a relief!
It had nothing to do with me.

I think that misses the point. You might not have been killed for that five dollars if you weren't additionally the target of a hate crime. (Of course, this is being over simplistic, but does illustrate the point of hate crime legislation. Obviously you wouldn't feel any better getting killed regardless the reason. Actually, you wouldn't feel anything either way--you'd be dead. )

JK

If so, so what?
The term is so stupid my mind boggles.
Cold blooded is better somehow?

[Arminius]

If you can't have same sex marriage recognized in California. The bluest of the blue states. And if the most liberal president (elect) in US History is not behind the issue. I still believe that civil unions would be a big step forward. The absence of the "M" word on state documents seems like a small price to pay for everything else that could be achieved.

[gyre]

Duanna Johnson became well known after video was exposed of police abuse.

She was later killed in a high risk area.
Very high risk.
It is being investigated as a possible hate crime.
This is based on no evidence at all.
It also means another case will not be pursued.

If it was because of who she was, does it really make it different?
Other victims are somehow less serious?
What if she was just being robbed?
Better somehow?
What if the killer doesn't know why they did it?
That happens all the time.

The only use I've seen of this legislation is the usual federal approach of circumventing double jeopardy to violate civil rights.
The politician responsible is bragging about engineering the conviction of someone already tried once.
I am horrified.
It is bad law and guarantees abuse as it is used selectively.

I predict it will someday be used to prosecute a gay couple after a domestic incident.

Hate crime law is the classic Very Bad Idea.
__________________________________________

The jail video is pretty horrible, so you're warned.

http://www.wmctv.com/Global/story.asp?s=8515744
http://www.wmctv.com/Global/story.asp?S ... v=menu59_2
http://www.wmctv.com/Global/SearchResul ... johnson%22

[Elderberry]

Here's an update on what's happening legally with Prop 8

JK

Just this afternoon, the California Supreme Court decided to grant review to numerous lawsuits regarding Prop. 8, making the case that:

•Prop. 8 is invalid because it constitutes a revision of, rather than an amendment to, the California Constitution.

•Prop. 8 violates the separation of powers doctrine under the California Constitution.

•If Prop. 8 is not unconstitutional, the marriages performed before Prop 8 passed should still be valid.

The court gave a very short briefing schedule, giving the state until December 19th to respond and giving our side until January 5th to respond to those briefs. Amicus briefs must be filed by January 15th, with replies to those due by January 21st.

The court did NOT grant a stay of Prop. 8 as had been requested. So, during the pendency of this matter, no marriage licenses will be issued to same-sex couples. Over the past 100 years, the California Supreme Court has heard nine cases challenging either legislative enactments or initiatives as invalid revisions of the California Constitution. In three of those cases, the Court invalidated those measures.

We are very pleased that the Court has granted review of these cases (they could have opted to not consider the lawsuits), but this should not be considered an indication they will rule in our favor.

[theCryptofishist]

The absence of the "M" word on state documents seems like a small price to pay for everything else that could be achieved.

So being civically a person of lessor rights is okay by you?

And if you knew what I knew about Orange, San Diego, and Butte Counties, you wouldn't call California "Bluest of Blue."

[Elderberry]

The absence of the "M" word on state documents seems like a small price to pay for everything else that could be achieved.

So being civically a person of lessor rights is okay by you?

And if you knew what I knew about Orange, San Diego, and Butte Counties, you wouldn't call California "Bluest of Blue."

Ya, the "orange curtain" does have it's reputation.

Actually, if they dropped the "M" word in ALL state documents for gay and straight, I'd be OK with it. Let's relegate marriage strictly to the church.

JK

[theCryptofishist]

The absence of the "M" word on state documents seems like a small price to pay for everything else that could be achieved.

So being civically a person of lessor rights is okay by you?

And if you knew what I knew about Orange, San Diego, and Butte Counties, you wouldn't call California "Bluest of Blue."

Ya, the "orange curtain" does have it's reputation.

Actually, if they dropped the "M" word in ALL state documents for gay and straight, I'd be OK with it. Let's relegate marriage strictly to the church.

Agreed

[Arminius]

It is my opinion that marriage is an archaic heterosexual custom celebrated between one man and one to four women. I am not suggesting that same sex relationships are any less important, any less painful, or any less stupid than than male/female couples. My only issue with recognizing same sex relationships is the "M" word. Call it anything but marriage and I'm fine with it.

♀♀♀♀ + ♂ + $ = ♥

And no I am not a Christian. For me it is a western culture issue. And not a religious matter.I can't even take traditional marriage seriously. But I am willing to accept the argument that ALL MARRIAGE IS WRONG.

[Ugly Dougly]

But I am willing to accept the argument that ALL MARRIAGE IS WRONG.

? Anything that is agreed to voluntarily between consenting adults, would you agree that the government should not interfere?

[Elderberry]

Funny Video with all-star cast too!

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf50 ... hida-jones

JK

[ygmir]

But I am willing to accept the argument that ALL MARRIAGE IS WRONG.

? Anything that is agreed to voluntarily between consenting adults, would you agree that the government should not interfere?

I would, and, add that government doesn't pay the bill if they get hurt or sick from it..........
If you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, it's your business.
If you get brain damage from a crash and no other persons insurance is responsible, the bill is on you, and, you alone.....

[Elderberry]

I would, and, add that government doesn't pay the bill if they get hurt or sick from it..........
If you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, it's your business.
If you get brain damage from a crash and no other persons insurance is responsible, the bill is on you, and, you alone.....

I have used that exact same example many a time.

JK

[gyre]

It would depend on what you're trying to prove, but not a great examplar.

A lot of states require insurance if you don't wear a helmet, but the amounts are too low to be meaningful and there is no protection from head injury in most cars and no helmet requirement.

How do you calculate the cost of the multiple caretakers that end up giving up their lives when there is no coverage, as happens for many tbi survivors now? ( and other types of patients too)
They are lost as resources when they leave other jobs to take care of relatives, and lost as a tax base too.
What did they do that they should be held responsible for?
How is the cost to society of the many people that die now, as a result of valiant but inadequate care by relatives, to be calculated.
This is not such a rare thing already.

And if you are satisfied that no support isn't costing society more than support, then you have to start talking about other forms of risk, diet, environment, habits, unnecessary trips to harsh environments over dangerous roads, alcohol, pointless risk from travel due to failure to live in a dense city, climbing trees, and so on and on...