Should The Big Three Be Rescued? Or Let 'em Burn?

[Arminius]

Go have a drink.

Can you say irony? Hummers are cool! They inspire class envy and petty terrorism from Earth First types. I don't actually advocate arson. But it's good that those pasty vegan kids with poor social social skills are actually getting out of their parent's basement. They have no real impact of course. But they do provide a certain level of entertainment.

Eco terrorists are stupid but at least they have some passion. No matter how misguided.

[ygmir]

Did who strike a cord? I have no idea of what you are talking about.

Go have a drink.

European car makers are now seeking a bailout program based on what we give our auto makers.

We give them nothings until after they file!

Let them go bankrupt! its the only way for them to reorganize without the constraints of their overburding overhead and start NEW!

No more hummers for fuck heads with too much money!

I was attempting humor at the expense of your witty rejoinder...........

I agree with the above, except, I still think anyone should be able to buy anything they can afford........and therefore, anyone should be able to build anything they think someone will buy..........
But, I think you're spot on with the start over without the overhead part.


Just a freedom thing, I guess......

[Apollonaris Zeus]

OK then we tax the shit out of them.

Certain vehicles (especially those that Car makers have been selling like over weight hummers) pay more when they register or renew their registration like 15% of its book value.

Now that would sending a message of "I'm so fucking rich I don't give a damn and I can surely pay it!"

That would really impress me with their lavished wealth!


AIIZ

[ygmir]

yeah, that's an idea.........not forbidding, just saying "pay your way"........

I'd heard that, in overall, long term effects and benefits and cost, a Hummer is cheaper and easier on the environment than a Prius.
Anyone know if that's true, or, where it comes from?

[Ugly Dougly]

I'm a conservative...

Dang. Really? Hard to tell from your avatar.

[ygmir]

hahaha,
hey, UD, does that logic mean your bolemic (sp?)?......giggle.........

[Ugly Dougly]

The Great American streetcar scandal ? Kudos.

Are you referring to Los Angeles? If so, I believe that has been proven to be an urban myth.

JK

Stop whacking off for a minute and show me where you have found proof. Outside of conservative thinktanks of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Amer ... ar_scandal

...Detroit, New York City, Oakland, Philadelphia, Phoenix, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Tulsa, Baltimore, Minneapolis, Seattle, and Los Angeles...

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Oh well, I'm sure that the left wing extremists will applaud your very clever and articulate response to my question

Now I know why you voted for Bush and palin if you think that was articulate and clever!

Simple minds vote for simple minded people!

Fuck Off

[Apollonaris Zeus]

A huge change in congress yesterday:

one of the biggest impediment to cleaner air, engines and better gas mileage was booted from his pedestal- John Dingell as the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee replaced by Rep. Henry Waxman.

Dingell was the point man for the auto industry. He can be blamed by America's auto industry as the person that helped kill it.

Rep. Miller said, "It was like Zeus and Thor in there throwing lightning bolts"

The Old guard of the Status Quo has fallen.

Now to do the same with the banking committee to fix the credit card fees and interest rates.

AIIZ

[Elderberry]

I'd heard that, in overall, long term effects and benefits and cost, a Hummer is cheaper and easier on the environment than a Prius.
Anyone know if that's true, or, where it comes from?

Interesting; but seems sort of contrary to common sense--at least mine.

I ordered a Smart ForTwo about a year and a half ago--just got it about a month ago and love it. It's gas, but gets about 35 miles to the gallon and is manufactured in a green facility to boot. I'll trade it in for their electric model as soon as the put it out in the states.

I feel so PC driving it around town!

JK

JK

[theCryptofishist]

I'd heard that, in overall, long term effects and benefits and cost, a Hummer is cheaper and easier on the environment than a Prius.
Anyone know if that's true, or, where it comes from?

A tabacco scientist?

[BAS]

I'd heard that, in overall, long term effects and benefits and cost, a Hummer is cheaper and easier on the environment than a Prius.
Anyone know if that's true, or, where it comes from?

That statement came from, IIRC, a study paid for by the maker of the Hummer and used very questionable logic-- such as the owner of the Hummer would own it significantly longer than the owner of a Prius, therefore more Priuses (or whatever the term would be) would wind up in landfills. I think it may have also had stuff like factoring in the pollution from making the battery but not for refining oil.

I'd look it up but my break just ended.

[Elderberry]

Stop whacking off for a minute and show me where you have found proof. Outside of conservative thinktanks of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Amer ... ar_scandal

I don't remember where I read that; I only remember that it came up in another conversation years ago and I found info to indicate that it was more myth than fact. I certainly could be wrong or have misremembered.

JK

[issimo]

Let 'em burn.
They lit the fire themselves.
Let them go bankrupt. They won't dissapear.
Believe it or not we still need American made cars.
They'll reorganize somehow, without the union obligations.
It'll hurt both the CEO's and the rank and file big time.
Ultimately, they will need to work and they'll go back to their newly restructured jobs.
Responisbly. Realistically. With humility.
They will learn how to make decent cars at a decent price.
Or they will die.

[cowboyangel]

...and with them the 3 million or so folks whom they employ?

[littleflower]

the problem with the prius and other hybrids is with battery disposal. from what i've read it's not a problem if they are disposed of properly, but there are no guarantees that they will be...

[Apollonaris Zeus]

that would be if every job was lost and Not all of them are going. even if they totally stopped production. replacement parts would still be produced by third party producers.

We also have other american car companies that have waiting for major infusion of cash for their highly efficient cars.

You have the tesla. It gets the equivalent of 120mpg.

Now factor in the Air car of Zero Pollution Motors and other start up companies.

Our government needs a plan to help retrain, educate and financial help the displaced workers to find jobs in a new auto industry of highly efficient cars and a new rail commuter system. We have old abandon rail lines to rebuild, tressels. Factories to build new commuter trains.

We can spend a trillon on a war to no where and we can spend twice that much to change a nation.

This is war

AIIZ

Or you can give detroit money to continue the combustible engine

[Captain Goddammit]

Do any of you automotive geniuses know that AM General doesn't even MAKE civilian Hummers anymore, and hasn't for several years?
The wimpy thing they sell now is nothing but a Chevy Tahoe chassis with bodywork styled after the "real" Hummer. It's just a fucking half-ton, not even up to the task of towing my Land Yacht trailer to Burning Man.
Any 3/4-ton pickup is a bigger and tougher vehicle.
So, they already did do away with the "overweight" Hummer.
They sold 'em in the first place because Americans wanted to buy them. Now that they've been gone for more years than you guys even realize ('cuz you're fooled by the "H2" pretender), Americans want and buy BIGGER trucks than the old Hummer, like the International CXT.

But what the hell, most ultra-liberals don't know shit about the cars they bitch about.

[Elderberry]

We can spend a trillon on a war to no where and we can spend twice that much to change a nation.

This is war

I totally agree.

JK

[Elderberry]

Do any of you automotive geniuses know that AM General doesn't even MAKE civilian Hummers anymore, and hasn't for several years?
The wimpy thing they sell now is nothing but a Chevy Tahoe chassis with bodywork styled after the "real" Hummer. It's just a fucking half-ton, not even up to the task of towing my Land Yacht trailer to Burning Man.
Any 3/4-ton pickup is a bigger and tougher vehicle.
So, they already did do away with the "overweight" Hummer.
They sold 'em in the first place because Americans wanted to buy them. Now that they've been gone for more years than you guys even realize ('cuz you're fooled by the "H2" pretender), Americans want and buy BIGGER trucks than the old Hummer, like the International CXT.

But what the hell, most ultra-liberals don't know shit about the cars they bitch about.

I have to say that I didn't know that (about the Hummer), but it doesn't suprise me.

I guess I wonder more about 'why' americans 'want' bigger vehicles. My guess is that more people 'want' them than 'need' them.

I think it's rediculous to see a Hummer (any model) or an Escalade riding around here in L.A. -- usually with only the driver. And often blasting rap music at decible levels that shake the pavement. And you see a lot of them.

JK

[Apollonaris Zeus]

This is the future of GM:

[img]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/200 ... ebVOLT.gif[/image]

Big fat ugly overweight SUV that you will help them continue to build and workers making $80 an hour on a production line. Or laid off workers being paid 90% of their original while they sit on their asses drinking beer in their living room!

GM is the problem!

Fuck them let them die!

AIIZ

[Captain Goddammit]

workers making $80 an hour on a production line. Or laid off workers being paid 90% of their original while they sit on their asses drinking beer in their living room!

GM is the problem!


AIIZ

You've just described why the labor union is the problem, not GM.

[cowboyangel]

workers making $80 an hour on a production line. Or laid off workers being paid 90% of their original while they sit on their asses drinking beer in their living room!

GM is the problem!


AIIZ

You've just described why the labor union is the problem, not GM.

from a uaw friendly blog..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 240AAH89X2

As a UAW worker. I know that I am very blessed to have the job I do and know that it can go away at any moment. I don't want anyone to feel bad or sorry for me. I have and will continue to live a great life, with or without the current job I have. But will you? I can assure you if the auto industry does fail then you most defiantly fail.

* We do make a decent wage. Under $30 an hour NOT the $45, $50, $55, $70 or even the $100 an hour as some assume. Skilled Trades (electricians, pipe fitters, millwrights, etc...) make between $30 up to under $40 an hour.

* We do have decent benefits although we have lost some of them due to trying to help the company survive

* WE spend our wages at local business and others when we are out of town

* Near my plant we have several business that are supported by us spending money at their establishments (fueling our cars, lunch, dinner, etc...)

* If the plants close then we, the UAW workers are put on unemployment that will go for at least a year for lower seniority workers, but there are many like myself that have quite a few years in that will be on it longer.

* Our unemployment would pay more than going to work somewhere else. Remember we have families and bills just like you. We require enough to take care of our finances just like you.

* Those of us that have a college education, thanks to our UAW's tuition assistance programs which are gone as of this last contract, will have to struggle to compete with the younger college graduates.

*New American auto makers won't open in this country, they will go over seas for cheap labor, because the non union people here would not be happy with the wage they will want to pay plus little to no benefits. Families can't survive on that. Especially if you have children that need braces, glasses, etc....

* Now because all of us UAW workers are laid off, we won't be spending money like we use to. This is going to become a problem for business that we once frequented. Imagine how much money will be taken out of the economy. Oh and don't forget we are TAXPAYERS just like you. I would be willing to be I pay alot more taxes than most of you that come to this forum do.

[Elderberry]

This is the future of GM:

I fixed your link (I think). This is worth bringing to everyone's attention. They would have had the marketing edge had they followed through with their ideas. I'd buy a hydrogen vehicle in a flash.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/200 ... ebVOLT.gif

That being said, I do think they "should" be left to die; but I think reality dictates that they need to be kept on life support until the economy turns around and can better assimilate the loss of jobs this would create.

JK

[BAS]

It's estimated that GM workers earn an average $73 an hour when benefits including health care and pensions are added in. That appears to be about $25 an hour more than Toyota's U.S. workers.

Just out of curiosity, what is the average dollars per hour, with benefits, once the upper management is taken out of the equation?

[Apollonaris Zeus]

To answer CaptianGDI,

I would say that that labor or the union is to blame. It is a big margin of overhead, but so is its executive's pay of the dinosaur age of big business paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to the president add in other exec and its close to a billion. If executives are getting top scale then so should the workers. Chapter 11 is not the doomsday for the industry such as the correction in the stock market isn't for our economy.

Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48

Cowboyangel- above is a scale of pay. I can't say that it is correct, but I guess UAW should start enlightening the public on the truth. I'm sure there are lower scale workers as there is in any industry. Everyone in this country has a family of sorts to justify higher pay scales.

here's were we need national insurance for everyone with low payments.

Without chap 11, there will be no change and just big heavy cars on the road.

A proper bailout we can get the Air Car going. The air car is the car of the future. No battery to dispose of or to increase costs, No oil lubes, lower weight. You pull into an Air Station and fill up for a few bucks and drive away. No huge infrastructure is needed except the one that is needed to be expanded anyway- transmission lines!

How many people you know are still using incandescent light bulbs in all applications?

Thanks Jiska for repairing the link. I don't do scripts on eplaya anyway. Nor do I go to every link posted!

[cowboyangel]

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/03/gm/gm02.cfm

the info from UAW official site

They don't seem to be outrageous to me. Why don't folks scream about executive perks, bonuses and outlandish salaries?

[ygmir]

I'd say, companies need to offer the best package they have, to, (hopefully) get the best workers, or management.
So, they offer huge salaries to hopefully get a great CEO, or whatever....it's a free market......geeze......no one will go work for GM, or whomever, just for the fun of it....they want big bucks, like everyone. And, if Ford offers more, they go there.
Supply and demand, I'd say.
If you ask a Darfurian flute maker, he'd probably say Burger King employees make to much......it's all relative, IMHO.....
They're private companies, sink or swim, but, by themselves, IMHO.....I disagree with any bailout.......

I'd also think, but, don't know, that if you took the huge salaries, of the upper management of these companies, as a total sum, and compare that to the total in wages paid, it'd be a pretty small part, as a whole........

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Why don't folks scream about executive perks, bonuses and outlandish salaries?

I just did?

because the neocon don't want their payscales cut!

And Mitt, you know is going to come in and buy up bankrupt goods!

But that wouldn't happen in chap 11

It's the air car, damn it, the AIR CAR!

[DVD Burner]

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/03/gm/gm02.cfm

the info from UAW official site

They don't seem to be outrageous to me. Why don't folks scream about executive perks, bonuses and outlandish salaries?

BINGO!

Especially since these guys never give any results anyway.