Should The Big Three Be Rescued? Or Let 'em Burn?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:28 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:http://www.uaw.org/contracts/03/gm/gm02.cfm

the info from UAW official site

They don't seem to be outrageous to me. Why don't folks scream about executive perks, bonuses and outlandish salaries?
BINGO!

Especially since these guys never give any results anyway.

I'd say it's no ones business how they operate, unless, they take public money, then, all bets are off......

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:30 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: Everyone in this country has a family of sorts to justify higher pay scales.

here's were we need national insurance for everyone with low payments.

How, in any way, shape or form, is having a 'family' any justification for higher pay scales?????

If you aren't making enough to support a family, shouldn't you (the individual) decide not to make one?

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:50 pm

jkisha wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote: Everyone in this country has a family of sorts to justify higher pay scales.

here's were we need national insurance for everyone with low payments.

How, in any way, shape or form, is having a 'family' any justification for higher pay scales?????

If you aren't making enough to support a family, shouldn't you (the individual) decide not to make one?

JK

Dang JK, we're agreeing all over the place.........

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:08 pm

ygmir wrote: Dang JK, we're agreeing all over the place.........

Usually after clarifications, we agree on most things, I've noticed.

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:24 pm

didn't we go to different schools together?

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:57 pm

Jkiska,

I'm just paraphrasing CB quote:

[quote="cowboyangel
*Our unemployment would pay more than going to work somewhere else. Remember we have families and bills just like you. We require enough to take care of our finances just like you.
[/quote]
though how long does the benefits run?

I've been trying to find out how much the Auto Execs make. Anyone find something!

If its standard wall street pay scale it should be several hundred thou with stock bonuses.

AIIZ

Dosmoss · Post by **Dosmoss** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:19 pm

Id say let em fall... Obviously it wasn't meant to be!!!

As well as we don't need to print anymore fucking money, by the time we bail everyone out of everything in stead of letting them learning from the first time, a gallon of milk with be $20 dollars because there will be so much money in the system that it wont really be worth anything!!!!

Has anyone every seen Idiocracy?

If not, YOU HAVE TOO!

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:41 am

Well the talk from the Demos is that they will not let them fail or go into chapter 11!

I believe that is wrong.

And what will America get in return!

More fat overweight gas hogs!

Few choices in hybreds especially economy hybreds, low liter engines and no fucking Air Cars!

Can make a shit load of on an Air Car!

Too low maintainence! non existant fuel- you can sell futures on air!

The failure of Dems and Obama is going to be the failure of creating an extensive commuter transportation system and the introduction of the Air Car on a mass produced scale!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:48 am

I agree, no bailouts for anyone.......let 'em fall, the market will dictate who and how they come back.
it'd be painful, for sure, but also make for strength upon return.........
IMHO

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:18 am

I have softened on this issue, only because of the state of the economy. But I think one of the main conditions of the 'loan bailout' is bankruptcy first. Without bankruptcy there is no way they can cut the number of dealer franchises and void and union contracts and make the other necessary cuts. Then, they need a plan to show that they will build energy efficient cars. (I need to do some more reading about that air car.)

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:21 am

ygmir wrote:didn't we go to different schools together?

I believe we did!

Small world.

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:21 am

jkisha wrote:I have softened on this issue, only because of the state of the economy. But I think one of the main conditions of the 'loan bailout' is bankruptcy first. Without bankruptcy there is no way they can cut the number of dealer franchises and void and union contracts and make the other necessary cuts. Then, they need a plan to show that they will build energy efficient cars. (I need to do some more reading about that air car.)

JK

I think government interference in this is a mistake........if left to the market, it'll come back exactly as it should........the market will dictate that.
if people want efficient cars, they'll make them.......the issue, is, will people want those cars?.....we talk a lot, but, will be actually do it?..........

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:28 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Jkiska,

I'm just paraphrasing CB quote:

[quote="cowboyangel
*Our unemployment would pay more than going to work somewhere else. Remember we have families and bills just like you. We require enough to take care of our finances just like you.

though how long does the benefits run?

I've been trying to find out how much the Auto Execs make. Anyone find something!

If its standard wall street pay scale it should be several hundred thou with stock bonuses.

AIIZ[/quote]

I never saw that post. But I would disagree with it on principle. If your life situation changes, it is not up to the government to provide enough money to continue to support a certain 'life style'. Food and general subsistence only.

Sell the house and move into a small apartment. Sell the car and take public transport. Life is tough and people need to down-size to fit their current earning potential; there is no guaranteed right to continue a life-style you have 'become accustomed too' when you can no longer afford that life style.

Regarding executive pay; I don't know specifically about the big three, but I have several friends that are corp execs, and you are pretty close on your 'guesstimate' of their earnings.

JK

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:34 am

I know I'm the center of your life, but...

Its ok to read other people's posts, Jkiska!

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:37 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:I know I'm the center of your life, but...

Its ok to read other people's posts, Jkiska!

I'd take issue with that. It's usually not a good idea for anyone to read any of mine!

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:42 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote:I know I'm the center of your life, but...

Its ok to read other people's posts, Jkiska!
I'd take issue with that. It's usually not a good idea for anyone to read any of mine!

the problem with not reading yours, CGD, is, then I have to listen to it with a voice synthesizer/reader, and, it always gives you Whoopi Golbbergs voice.......not sure how it chooses that one...............

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:57 am

ygmir wrote: I think government interference in this is a mistake........if left to the market, it'll come back exactly as it should........the market will dictate that.
if people want efficient cars, they'll make them.......the issue, is, will people want those cars?.....we talk a lot, but, will be actually do it?..........

You are right to question the consumer on this. People are way too into excess and keeping up with the Jones.

My only question to you is do you think that this economy could endure the big three all going under in its fragile state at this point in time? Lots of ripple effect, no?

JK

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:19 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote:I know I'm the center of your life, but...

Its ok to read other people's posts, Jkiska!
I'd take issue with that. It's usually not a good idea for anyone to read any of mine!

Don't worry, I have never read any of your posts....

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:25 am

I've been forcing myself not to use my car-- with the repair costs, last summer's high gas prices, and the poor parking situation downtown (where I work), I just plain can't afford the d---ed thing!

OT: At work, they (management) wants to combine South East Area Housing with Lakeshore Housing. During a meeting on it, I asked them about parking at Lakeshore, so they went on about how much better parking was over there. Why, after five there were lots of lots available! So I pointed out that I started work at three, which meant there were two hours in which I could not legally park anywhere. I was told that they would get back to me. Naturally, I haven't heard anything.

We might get out of the move, anyway, since the economy is tanking and the move didn't make it into the last budget.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:22 pm

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote: I think government interference in this is a mistake........if left to the market, it'll come back exactly as it should........the market will dictate that.
if people want efficient cars, they'll make them.......the issue, is, will people want those cars?.....we talk a lot, but, will be actually do it?..........
You are right to question the consumer on this. People are way too into excess and keeping up with the Jones.

My only question to you is do you think that this economy could endure the big three all going under in its fragile state at this point in time? Lots of ripple effect, no?

JK

well,
I think it'd be a tough thing, for sure, if they failed......but, is it better to cut off the ruined limb, or, see if gangrene sets in?........

The gov. can run all over, putting bandaids on chainsaw cuts, and, make sure all their pals get the money.......or, just let it all crumble, I don't think it'd be as bad as predicted (I think they predict it so bad, so, we, the sheeple, will agree to bailouts).
when the dust settles, it'd come back with more strength, since, it'd be necessarily lean, at least to begin with.........
and, it'd come back, more sensitive to the market......whatever that may be (good point about people and their excesses). IF, people wanted more economical/efficient cars, that's where they'd go.......free markets would dictate "give 'em what they'll buy".....if not, well......

I just don't see thing falling completely apart......we can be self sustaining, on this continent.....sure, things would change, some luxuries may disappear or be drastically limited, but, the basics exist........
It might hurt our foreign trade, but, mostly, they need us more than we need them.........

I could see a huge benefit, in that people may reflect on the lifestyles we live and decide for a more austere, but sustainable, way to go........

I say that, and, realize it'd be forgotten on future generations, much like we all lost sight of how the folks that came through the great depression and WWII lived......

just some thoughts.......

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:32 pm

The unions have a say in what the automakers do; http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

Post by **Elderberry** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:43 pm

can't sit still wrote:The unions have a say in what the automakers do; http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

Just another reason that the big 3 don't have a ray of hope here in the U.S.

JK

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:33 pm

The big three fucked themselves. As far as they were concerned, America was an island and WE had to buy what they produced. In '69, the Datsun 510 and the Corona were great cars. We also had the V-dub and a few Italian cars. Detroit said that they didn't have any interest in that niche. As the compact niche grew, the big three mostly ignored it. Sure, we had the Vega and the Pinto,,, but they were crap.
Detroit was so ossified that they continued to ignore the market until they couldn't catch up. I worked for GM. Years ago, They changed their attitude. They decided that GM was not in business to build good cars. GM was in business to make money.
Compare a Harley shovel head to a Hinda 450. That's what the American auto industry is in perspective.
They had a bad business model and they weren't market responsive. That's what happens to companies that don't pay attention to evolving markets. Just like many other problems that we have, it results from bad leadership.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:59 am

Jesse Jackson plans rallies to support automakers

Jesse Jackson says he'll organize rallies to urge government aid for auto industry

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/art ... bab4d4.htm

December 05, 2008: 12:18 PM EST

NEW YORK (Associated Press) - The Rev. Jesse Jackson says he will organize rallies in several cities to urge Congress to grant aid to the struggling U.S. automakers.

At a press conference Friday with minority auto suppliers and dealers in Detroit, Jackson said, "It's time to go back to the streets for some action."

The civil rights leader and former presidential hopeful says the issue is not about "the Big Three execs, it's the big 4 million jobs."

Jackson spoke while the leaders of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler are in Washington for their second day of hearings to request up to $34 billion in emergency funding to stay in business.

Jackson took issue with congressional leaders' criticism of the automakers. He says the banking industry did not have to face such a grilling before Congress. Top of page

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:00 am

And you wonder why I know politics and religion is for suckers?