The "New" New Deal: The Air Car and Mass Transit!

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Write Your Congressman Not to Miss The Boat!

The time for the "New" New Deal economic plan is a major public investment on true energy and pollution saving measures and not putting our money into the dinosaur of the combustible engine and the big three automakers!

This is war!

Like a war we need a big war chest! A few hundred billion is nothing for economic transportation restructuring!

We need Trillions! But not all at one time but an investment of over a period of twenty years as we phase out a dependence of fossil fuels- to alternative sources!

From an antiquated diesel commuter trains system to a magnetic propulsion rail system- including mono-rails in congested cities.

Forget about the Flex-Fuel vehicles they are only a minor improvements for non-commercial vehicles. They are still high maintenance and still emit pollution. Hybrid vehicle are much better, but are expensive and affordable by mostly the wealthy. Hybrids expend more pollution is its manufacturing and recycling of their batteries. They are still very expensive in maintenance and would require an extensive electric transmission infrastructure that would tax even the needed solar and wind production including the transmission improvements necessary for future need of transferring homes and industry away from fossil fuel to electric.

The only feasible solution is the mass production of the Air Car. Several companies are producing them now in America and overseas- non of the BIG THREE have plans to produce them. Tata has in product several models. Read This:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 17016.html
World's First Air-Powered Car: Zero Emissions by Next Summer
This six-seater tax, which should be available in India next year, is powered entirely by a tank filled with compressed air.

By Matt Sullivan
Published in the June 2007 issue.

India’s largest automaker is set to start producing the world’s first commercial air-powered vehicle. The Air Car, developed by ex-Formula One engineer Guy Nègre for Luxembourg-based MDI, uses compressed air, as opposed to the gas-and-oxygen explosions of internal-combustion models, to push its engine’s pistons. Some 6000 zero-emissions Air Cars are scheduled to hit Indian streets in August of 2008.

Barring any last-minute design changes on the way to production, the Air Car should be surprisingly practical. The $12,700 CityCAT, one of a handful of planned Air Car models, can hit 68 mph and has a range of 125 miles. It will take only a few minutes for the CityCAT to refuel at gas stations equipped with custom air compressor units; MDI says it should cost around $2 to fill the car’s carbon-fiber tanks with 340 liters of air at 4350 psi. Drivers also will be able to plug into the electrical grid and use the car’s built-in compressor to refill the tanks in about 4 hours.

Of course, the Air Car will likely never hit American shores, especially considering its all-glue construction. But that doesn’t mean the major automakers can write it off as a bizarre Indian experiment — MDI has signed deals to bring its design to 12 more countries, including Germany, Israel and South Africa.
End of Article
We should not waste our tax dollars on soon to be obsolete infrastructure and an automobile industry with continuing connections with the oil companies. We need major government investments in New Mass Transit.
Please write your congressman now. Talk, report and blog about this issue before we give the Big Three your money and see failure of the air car production and a continuation of the combustable dinosaur and dead end battery powered hybrids and flexfuels even the hrydogen car. They would only have limited needs in areas where refilling stations are non-exsistant!

[Elderberry]

Leave it to those Indians. How cool is that! Another reason for the U.S. to again ease immigration so that some of these minds can again be put to work for the U.S. (but that's a topic for a different thread)

If you're a true believer in technology being market driven, and the free market taking care of the big three; why should you be so pessimistic about the car taking hold in the U.S.?

I understand that the design would have to be upgraded to meet our safety standards; but those Indians are pretty market savvy. Look how long it took for the Smart Car to make it here. But it is now one of the only cars that is sold by one of the big three that is selling.

JK

[gyre]

So what's the efficiency loss from compressed air to power with the air engine?
What's the efficiency of the compressor?
How expensive is a good compressor?
How much does the onboard compressor cost?
What's the lifespan before rebuilds?

How many joules can a car carry in those tanks?

The australian version looks more interesting to me with its rotary engine
but the other one uses more conventional parts.

It is all still very unproven at this point though.

[ygmir]

I'd also wonder about its range....how is it for our market?
we tend to drive a long distance to work, play, etc.........maybe inner city stuff. but, I'd have to imagine it has a limited range.......
How safe? well, it's small, so, you can only do so much versus a one ton Dodge pickup.......
How fast? we tend to drive fast....

sure, we can make societal changes, but, not really soon, I'd bet.....

probably a specific market for it, and, for that, it'd be great, I'm sure.....

[gyre]

I've seen an indian electric car.
May have been a test vehicle.
It was elegantly light with an aluminum frame and a plastic body.
It looked conventional, but was closer in detail to a golf cart.
Very little crash protection however.

The drivetrain was very effective though.

[BAS]

The $12,700 CityCAT, one of a handful of planned Air Car models, can hit 68 mph and has a range of 125 miles

The speed is okay, but the range suggests a city only car. Are there any with a better range? Having to stop to refill the air tanks every 125 miles, even if it only takes a few minutes, would make my trip to the Black Rock Desert much longer.

[gyre]

Don't expect to fill tanks like that in a few minutes.
They are talking about a long time with anything except the big stations proposed.
Home or portable compressors would be much slower.

Someone will have to prove that range to me too, just like the theoretical 15 mile range of a $400 bike kit.

I get 300 miles to the gallon using the same technical approach they do- lying.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

safe, well, it's small, so, you can only do so much versus a one ton Dodge pickup.......
How fast? we tend to drive fast....

Safe? we will see, especially if the big three are given stipulations on how to retool, movement to smaller, lighter vehicles. If so car crashes would have less impact damage forces then hitting some of the average SUVs on the market today.

As I said in my opening statement, it would basically be used in a non-commercial situation.

I would imagine that Freight and other heavy payload vehicles would still be based on diesels and flex-fuels.

The article states a 124 mile range, which is more then good enough for day to day commuting at 55mph. The article doesn't state what its efficiency would be at constant speeds. Larger models can hold higher capacity tanks.

Since its not a combustible engine, of which has a higher intrinsic rate of damage related to high temperature engines, it would run much cooler on bio and synthetic lubes and would not necessitate a water cooling system. Heating the interior from electric created from the generator and engine.

Since the original design was based on high rpm racing engine on the European grand prix. So it would logical that sleek sport cars will still be available.

My gut pessimism is based on the premise that our big three love the expensive after market maintenance of planned obsolescence. The air compressor engines are cooler, therefore they break down less and can require in expense alloys. They are much more simpler in design. No catalytic heaters, no large battery packs, No carburetors or fuel injectors and less, less everything means less maintenance and related costs.

What about the no pollution exhaust, less related medical costs to our society. LA, SF and NYC air would be extremely clean air quality!

But it won’t happen unless you speak out!

[ygmir]

all good points. and, a good dream. it'd be nice to see it happen, but, my cynical nature about people is still looking askance.........

the safety thing, for me, would be big.
yeah, if everyone had small plastic cars, it'd be ok. but, it'll be a long, long time until that happens.......and, I've certainly see lots of drivers that shouldn't be allowed........and driving huge Buicks or whatever......

but, all in all, pretty good for the city, I'd think.......

[Apollonaris Zeus]

The Air Car designers are working on a hybrid version that can compress air while it's operating, potentially making cross-India and BM journeys possible: Toyota Prius, eat your hybrid heart out.

Do you think that big manufacturing money and labor would want this?

It would cut into the profit and labor bottom line!

Solar cells would power the air pumps when you park.

But if you guys would read all that I print. I did say that some parts of our wide and open country would or might require a flexfuel engine!

Imagine now Tata India is the Microsoft of the autoworld.

You call tech support

and...

and.....

A guy from detroit answers!

hahahahahahahaha...ha!

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Thank You Jim for helping get this message out when America needs it the most before the bailout of the Big Three and this technology if shelfed until the next bailout.

This design incorporates a small combustible engine for the long haul trip like to BM:

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresour ... 81028.html

Air Cars: A New Wind for America's Roads?
A new carmaker has a plan for cheap, environmentally friendly cars to be built all over the country.
By Jim Ostroff, Associate Editor, The Kiplinger Letter

October 28,

An air-powered car? It may be available sooner than you think at a price tag that will hardly be a budget buster. The vehicle may not run like a speed racer on back road highways, but developer Zero Pollution Motors is betting consumers will be willing to fork over $20,000 for a vehicle that can motor around all day on nothing but air and a splash of salad oil, alcohol or possibly a pint of gasoline.

The expertise needed to build a compressed air car, or CAV, is not rocket science, either. Years-old, off-the-shelf technology uses compressed air to drive old-fashioned car engine pistons instead of combusting gas or diesel fuel to create a burst of air to do the same thing. Indian carmaker Tata has no qualms about the technology. It has already bought the rights to make the car for the huge Indian market.

The air car can tool along at a top speed of 35 mph for some 60 miles or so on a tank of compressed air, a sufficient distance for 80% of consumers to commute to work and back and complete daily chores.

On highways, the CAV can cruise at interstate speeds for nearly 800 miles with a small motor that compresses outside air to keep the tank filled. The motor isn't finicky about fuel. It will burn gasoline or diesel as well as biodiesel, ethanol or vegetable oil.

This car leaves the highest-mpg vehicles you can buy right now in the dust. Even if it used only regular gasoline, the air car would average 106 mpg, more than double today's fuel sipping champ, the Toyota Prius. The air tank also can be refilled when it's not in use by being plugged into a wall socket and recharged with electricity as the motor compresses air.

Automakers aren't quite ready yet to gear up huge assembly line operations churning out air cars or set up glitzy dealer showrooms where you can ooh and aah over the color or style. But the vehicles will be built in factories that will make up to 8,000 vehicles a year, likely starting in 2011, and be sold directly to consumers.

There will be plants in nearly every state, based on the number of drivers in the state. California will have as many as 17 air car manufacturing plants, and there'll be around 12 in Florida, eight in New York, four in Georgia, while two in Connecticut will serve that state and Rhode Island.

The technology goes back decades, but is coming together courtesy of two converging forces. First, new laws are likely to be enacted in a few years that will limit carbon dioxide emissions and force automakers to develop ultra-high mileage cars and those that emit minuscule amounts of or no gases linked with global warming. Plug-in electric hybrids will slash these emissions, but they'll be pricey at around $40,000 each and require some changes in infrastructure -- such as widespread recharge stations -- to be practical. Fuel cells that burn hydrogen to produce only water vapor still face daunting technical challenges.

Second, the relatively high cost of gas has expedited the air car's development. Yes, pump prices have plunged since July from record levels, but remain way higher than just a few years ago and continue to take a bite out of disposable income. Refiners will face carbon emission restraints, too, and steeply higher costs will be passed along at the pump.

Zero Pollution Motors doesn't plan to produce the cars in the U.S. Instead, it plans to charge $15 million for the rights to the technology, a fully built turnkey auto assembly plant, tools, machinery, training and rights to use trademarks.

The CAV has a big hurdle: proving it can pass federal crash tests. Shiva Vencat, president and CEO of Zero Pollution Motors, says he's not worried. "The requirements can be modeled [on a computer] before anything is built and adjusted to ensure that the cars will pass" the crash tests. Vencat also is a vice president of MDI Inc., a French company that developed the air car.

End of Article

What an investment with a low cost startup price?

think of Air Car Companies like tata, Zero Pollution Motors and others!

[gyre]

Tata is in trouble right now, you know.

Tomorrow morning abc good morning is running a bit on different alternative cars.

[lurker]

"Okay, folks, we've built this here 'aircar. It's pretty thrilling--it runs on air--so you've got zero emissions at the car. So you can all feel good that your personal conveyance is not stinking up the atmosphere. Nope. Instead, we've put greater strain on our national power grid, we've upped the burning of fossil fuels to power all the compressors and put all the pollution you're creating by driving around a a decent remove from you so you can forget about it."

Still burns fossil fuels--not a solution.

Air cars are an interesting idea--but they're not solving the problem--they're a 'feelgood' concept that doesn't really address the fact that the energy that fuels the compressors is coming from the same damned source.

Someone said it once--our biggest problem is energy collection and storage

There's a box here that no one's really thinking outside of, y'know?.

[ygmir]

good points.......

[littleflower]

Safe? we will see, especially if the big three are given stipulations on how to retool, movement to smaller, lighter vehicles. If so car crashes would have less impact damage forces then hitting some of the average SUVs on the market today.

you will always have delivery trucks, buses, etc. on city streets ... in addition to old cars ... and crash tests will ALWAYS be a problem. besides, most city people want cars they can use on trips .... parents often carpool several kids around ... a little, light car might, maybe, work in some cities but i can't see it working in car capital LA. i know people with 125+ miles commutes here. too.

you can't compare a country with a very old car culture to one with no car culture... cars used to be less safe in the US, you know ... i do not see this going backwards.

and if it is so impractical ... why would the big 3 spend a lot of money on it?

[Apollonaris Zeus]

"Okay, folks, we've built this here 'aircar. It's pretty thrilling--it runs on air--so you've got zero emissions at the car. So you can all feel good that your personal conveyance is not stinking up the atmosphere. Nope. Instead, we've put greater strain on our national power grid, we've upped the burning of fossil fuels to power all the compressors and put all the pollution you're creating by driving around a a decent remove from you so you can forget about it."

Still burns fossil fuels--not a solution.

Air cars are an interesting idea--but they're not solving the problem--they're a 'feelgood' concept that doesn't really address the fact that the energy that fuels the compressors is coming from the same damned source.

Someone said it once--our biggest problem is energy collection and storage

There's a box here that no one's really thinking outside of, y'know?.

Duh, alot of source for electric energy is coming on line, y'know!

And if you and littleFlower would read them. Of course everyone that posted here knows that except for your little brains!

Keep it up and you'll find yourself in a box!

[littleflower]

my post was not about power grids ...

[ygmir]

"Okay, folks, we've built this here 'aircar. It's pretty thrilling--it runs on air--so you've got zero emissions at the car. So you can all feel good that your personal conveyance is not stinking up the atmosphere. Nope. Instead, we've put greater strain on our national power grid, we've upped the burning of fossil fuels to power all the compressors and put all the pollution you're creating by driving around a a decent remove from you so you can forget about it."

Still burns fossil fuels--not a solution.

Air cars are an interesting idea--but they're not solving the problem--they're a 'feelgood' concept that doesn't really address the fact that the energy that fuels the compressors is coming from the same damned source.

Someone said it once--our biggest problem is energy collection and storage

There's a box here that no one's really thinking outside of, y'know?.

Duh, alot of source for electric energy is coming on line, y'know!

And if you and littleFlower would read them. Of course everyone that posted here knows that except for your little brains!

Keep it up and you'll find yourself in a box!

a little snarky today, AZ?........

you must realize, though, that the "sources" you refer to coming online are minimal, compared to what's already here, and, what's needed.....not that they won't help, but, for a long time, electricity will still be mostly made by fossil fuel........it'll take a long time to get the balance tipped.......
energy collection and storage are a key issue..........

I'd also wonder about the entire equation of energy used to create the motion of the air car, compared to other modes of transport......like the generation of electricity, transmission to the compressor, compressing the air, etc.....and, how efficient are all these.......

To me, it'd be interesting to know how far a given "unit" of fossil fuel drives each sort of vehicle.......in the entire line from extraction to movement....

not that alternate modes aren't good, but, especially in the beginning, they usually don't work out, all things considered.......until improvements in all phases are made.

IMHO......anyway......

[Sail Man]

Hmmm, methinks their just blowing air out of their tailpipes

Me, I'm holding out for the transporter beam

[ygmir]

Hmmm, methinks their just blowing air out of their tailpipes

Me, I'm holding out for the transporter beam

just be careful of the "deep space, widest possible dispersion" setting, you know what that did to "Nomad"..........

[Apollonaris Zeus]

a little snarky today, AZ?........

To me, it'd be interesting to know how far a given "unit" of fossil fuel drives each sort of vehicle.......in the entire line from extraction to movement....

not that alternate modes aren't good, but, especially in the beginning, they usually don't work out, all things considered.......until improvements in all phases are made.

IMHO......anyway......

Snarky Yes when it come to dealing with idiots!

I'm sure you can find something production to comsumption energy expenditures on the WWW.

I as stated above the power grid needs to be increased. Once in place is the least cost of delivery to consumers then Petroleum and bio-fuels. You spend a lot to find it, then pump it, then truck it to a small refinery, then pipe it or truck it again to the final refinery, then pipe it to distribution center then truck it to a gas station. The expenditure of fuel and the electric to produce gas will then go into compressors.

Solar cells are now near 90% of the cost of producing electric compared to fossil fuels so in the near future they will be cheap enough on the top of most homes for the cost of installing a furnace and pipes and the cost of fuel. Home generation will be the biggest supplier of solar cell production easily producing enough for their home, car with enough left over to power many businesses.

Storage of power can be anywhere there are mines in the form of pressurized AIR, Gravity reservoirs who knows maybe polar transmission lines to distribute to continents at night.

On my way across I90, I saw hundreds of wind turbines all next to existing transmission lines.

In opening statement, I talk about the need to invest in the grid.

We can't let lower oil prices to derail the conversion. We need to prepare for the future of $200 barrel prices soon.

Now is the time to do in the Real New Deal!

AIIZ

[lurker]

There's a lot of speculation that oil's gonna hit twenty bucks a barrel...

But who knows?

AIIZ, I haven't seen anything that will accomplish the large scale replacement of existing power sources in enough time to make these air cars anything but thte 'feel good' boondoggle I think they are.

That being said, I do think that there are things that can alter where we get our power. Like nuclear plants.

And I'm looking forward to the day when homes are routinely shingled with solar collectors.

I guess my trepidation comes from the fact that it always seems that people talk about major issues in changing over to alternative energy forms as if they're little bumps in the road that oil companies or automakers keep in place to stymie the easy transition to clean, affordable, renewable energy--and they're not little bumps in the road.

I think I pointed out here that it's the energy companies who are pursuing alternate energy with more zeal than anyone--because they want to STAY energy companies. The first viable solution will make the discoverer rich beyond anyone's wildest imaginings--AND they'll be hailed as a savior. AND they'll STILL have all that oil to sell for it's other uses. It's a win-win-win situation.

So this isn't an easy thing--no matter how much I, or you, or anyone wants it to be.

[DVD Burner]

I posted about this air car 4 years ago on eplaya and got into a huge one with Rob the Wop about it.

It takes people awhile to get the idea in America.

Dont know why it is.

Like IPV6. invented here and deployed everywhere around the world but as usual, America is last to get it.

[BAS]

Speaking of alternative power sources-- whatever became of the idea of placing large, solar panels in orbit, where they would not be subject to weather, and beaming the power to a collection station on the ground? Those sounded like a good idea back in the late 1970s-early 1980s. The collection surfaces could be truly huge without gravity, and very reliable, without clouds...

Now no one is even mentioning it...

[DVD Burner]

First they gotta take care of the space junk.

[BAS]

From what I recall from the time, that was not considered a major hurdle. (Actually, one thing I recall, was the argument that at the scale they were supposed to be built at, it wouldn't matter if a few collisions took some of the cells off line. They were supposed to be so big....) Plus it depends upon what orbit they are placed in.

Darn-- I don't think I have any of the stuff left over from the time to consult....

[ygmir]

unless the orbit was geosynchronous (35,786 km above mean sea level), it'd be hard to keep that huge "energy beam" aimed at a collector, or, line around the world of collectors.......and, imagine if it lost it's aim.........and, someone would protest that some rare duck might fly through said beam, creating duck jerky.......
seems pretty impractical to me........
and, sending the beam that far seems an issue......

Just some thoughts.......

[Captain Goddammit]

It seems to me you're kinda' glossing over the minor little issue of coming up with a way of "beaming" large amounts of power! Wow, that would be an awesome space weapon!

[BAS]

Yeah, I'd forgotten that it/they would be in geosynchronous orbit. I don't recall exactly how they were planning on beaming down the energy, but the radiation was supposed to be not significantly more than sunlight. Plus, it isn't as if the bird were stationary, either.

This is actually the wrong place for me to be asking about it. I should go to one of the more science-oriented forums I have at one time or another hung out on.

[gyre]

http//www.geosynchronoussolarpowereddeathbeamforums.com/