Terror in India

[Simon of the Playa]

Fait Accompli.


even if we had E.Howard Hunt Himself, back from the dead, to confirm, on a polygraph test that indeed, he was the shooter that day in dallas, would it matter?

would anything change?


Even if the Joint Chiefs, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the head of the ISI (pakistani intel) all got together and in a drunken binge admitted 9/11 was a Joke, would it matter?

it's done.....you cannot roll time back, or change an action, merely react to it.


and in all three of these cases, to react in a manner contrary to state opinion is a tenuous position for many reasons.


God, i love History, it is always malleable, yet it cannot be changed.

[BAS]

and as far as Nazi's go, we (Americans) are living in a Dream if you think that we are somehow better than that regime.

They simply had a certain style, a flair, hell, it's all about the Uniforms. No?

I think most here agree that we are NOT inherently better, and a lot are worried about us going in that direction. (Hell, I might have lost my job at the DMV because of my "Defend America, Impeach Bush" bumper sticker!)

Another reason why the Nazis keep coming up here in the USA might be to the large portion of the population made up of people of German descent. Although the percentage has been decreasing since, at the time of the Second World War, a lot of folks could trace their ancestors back to the region of Germany. My mother's grandmother had immigrated from Germany and, when she heard about what Hitler and Company were doing and had done, she was shocked. My mom says her grandmother said "That is not my Germany!"

Plus, the US was one of the top choices for the Jewish people fleeing Hitler. (I certainly can see the appeal of putting an ocean between themselves and the Nazi regime.) And, has been pointed out, their descendants do use the Holocaust as a lobbying point.

[wedeliver]

At least lets hope we can keep the "mob mentality" from taking over here at eplaya.

Concerning the above comments on the Holocaust I would like to point out that the German's used gas chambers to kill people. There was a lot of planning, construction, money to make all that happen. There might be "killing fields" in cambodia and even here in the US, but that does not excuse or give reason and understanding to what happened in Gemany.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

The Nazis are the most vile know for their foul mentality and their weakness to control their anger.

Germans have been known since Roman times to have a weak psyche. They are controled by their angst as opposed to the Greeks and Romans. If the Romans wish to intimidate the Germanic tribe into a war all they need to do was insult them. Even Hitler and Bismark used the German Angst to control the german mass in supporting wars that could never be won.

Sad for such an intelligent group of people to be so weak!

When the nazis had lost the war, that angst was so powerful that they continued to murder and destroy all signs of world civilized such as art, architech, museums and even those people that fought with the Axis nations during the war.

They brought out the true Barbarians that the Nazis were made of!

They are the real terrorists of the civilized world.

They are the most vile

AIIZ

not what I'd expect from such an enlightened person such as yourself, AZ.........
certainly stereo typical, myopic, and, biased........
such claims can be made of any "group" or "race" you choose, at some point in history..........find me one "group" that hasn't perpetrated heinous acts on another.......been master and slave, committed wanton murder and genocide........and been the recipient of same.......


"worst" is very subjective.........

First German is not a race it is a group! Not all groups of people practiced genocide. In most it was outlawed! for heinous see below. Master and Slave was not an Ideal in Germanic thinking at any point- all sub humans must be exterminated Period. that was the plan! Useful until physically wasted or until the useful need had expired.

You say who hasn't.

I say, who on such a vast scale. Who on such a selective basis.

ygmir you are in denial. Never had it been done on such a vast scale and so meticulous and cold! None of the European countries were a threat to the German. The Empires were gone half a century ago though I can't think of any that caused genocide on such a vast scale. The scumbag Facists Italians killed 50,000- 100,000 Ethiopeans but it didn't approach the 9 million of the Nazis. If the Nazis weren't stopped, where would those numbers have ended at? Half Billion, one billion? those were the plans! Eventually it would have ended with all those not Blue Eyed and non-tanning skin dead! And that's a fact!

Now if you're German, Italian or european I suggest you find a nice person with some color in them and have a baby! If you're a black person, find some very pale person and have a child or two- no more we don't want to over populate and over populated world!

America is well on its way and only to act against this trend is like blowing into the wind to stop it! So flow with it!

Anyway, enough of this thread drift!

AIIZ

[ygmir]

The Nazis are the most vile know for their foul mentality and their weakness to control their anger.

Germans have been known since Roman times to have a weak psyche. They are controled by their angst as opposed to the Greeks and Romans. If the Romans wish to intimidate the Germanic tribe into a war all they need to do was insult them. Even Hitler and Bismark used the German Angst to control the german mass in supporting wars that could never be won.

Sad for such an intelligent group of people to be so weak!

When the nazis had lost the war, that angst was so powerful that they continued to murder and destroy all signs of world civilized such as art, architech, museums and even those people that fought with the Axis nations during the war.

They brought out the true Barbarians that the Nazis were made of!

They are the real terrorists of the civilized world.

They are the most vile

AIIZ

not what I'd expect from such an enlightened person such as yourself, AZ.........
certainly stereo typical, myopic, and, biased........
such claims can be made of any "group" or "race" you choose, at some point in history..........find me one "group" that hasn't perpetrated heinous acts on another.......been master and slave, committed wanton murder and genocide........and been the recipient of same.......


"worst" is very subjective.........

First German is not a race it is a group! Not all groups of people practiced genocide. In most it was outlawed! for heinous see below. Master and Slave was not an Ideal in Germanic thinking at any point- all sub humans must be exterminated Period. that was the plan! Useful until physically wasted or until the useful need had expired.

You say who hasn't.

I say, who on such a vast scale. Who on such a selective basis.

ygmir you are in denial. Never had it been done on such a vast scale and so meticulous and cold! None of the European countries were a threat to the German. The Empires were gone half a century ago though I can't think of any that caused genocide on such a vast scale. The scumbag Facists Italians killed 50,000- 100,000 Ethiopeans but it didn't approach the 9 million of the Nazis. If the Nazis weren't stopped, where would those numbers have ended at? Half Billion, one billion? those were the plans! Eventually it would have ended with all those not Blue Eyed and non-tanning skin dead! And that's a fact!

Now if you're German, Italian or european I suggest you find a nice person with some color in them and have a baby! If you're a black person, find some very pale person and have a child or two- no more we don't want to over populate and over populated world!

America is well on its way and only to act against this trend is like blowing into the wind to stop it! So flow with it!

Anyway, enough of this thread drift!

AIIZ

as is usually the case, AZ, we agree and disagree, a good mix, IMHO.....

interesting, though, that you make your points, some quite debatable, some erroneous, and, some counterproductive, and, then, call for and end to the discussion.........

you opened so many doors of discussion, just in the above diatribe....egad.

ok I'm off the thread drift. too..........

I do enjoy all of you, and, the facts, opinions, and, emotion involved.........I always learn something from these discussions, thread drift or no. and, for that, thank each and every contributor......

*radio voice*
Ygmir, out.

[ygmir]

At least lets hope we can keep the "mob mentality" from taking over here at eplaya.

Concerning the above comments on the Holocaust I would like to point out that the German's used gas chambers to kill people. There was a lot of planning, construction, money to make all that happen. There might be "killing fields" in cambodia and even here in the US, but that does not excuse or give reason and understanding to what happened in Gemany.

I don't think anyone was trying to excuse anything.......and, I fail to see how killing people by freezing, starving, shooting, hacking, etc etc is any different than gassing them.......and planning it.......

murder is murder, IMHO.

[Simon of the Playa]

actually, truth be told, Hitler adapted his methodology from both the American treatment of it's Native American population as well as a similar plan used by the South Africans in establishing homelands (reservations).

It seems he learned from the best.


if you cannot fathom the reality that we are all capable of being horrendous monsters under the right circumstances, you are very naive.

One only has to look at the experiments done at stanford and other laboratories as to the willingness of ordinary people to do what is normally abhorrent as long as an authority figure has told them it is ok, or actually needed.

only one out of a hundred WILL NOT pull the lever, giving a "shock" of extreme pain to the "subject" on the other side of the curtain when told to do so by the man in the white lab coat.

it is not a Nation, or a Race, or a Religion, it is Human Nature.

i have seen the enemy, and he is us.

[ygmir]

actually, truth be told, Hitler adapted his methodology from both the American treatment of it's Native American population as well as a similar plan used by the South Africans in establishing homelands (reservations).

It seems he learned from the best.


if you cannot fathom the reality that we are all capable of being horrendous monsters under the right circumstances, you are very naive.

One only has to look at the experiments done at stanford and other laboratories as to the willingness of ordinary people to do what is normally abhorrent as long as an authority figure has told them it is ok, or actually needed.

only one out of a hundred WILL NOT pull the lever, giving a "shock" of extreme pain to the "subject" on the other side of the curtain when told to do so by the man in the white lab coat.

it is not a Nation, or a Race, or a Religion, it is Human Nature.

i have seen the enemy, and he is us.

and, I bet Americans and South Africans, and, I'm sure others, learned it from somewhere else. This sort of inter human abuse is nowhere near a new concept.

I agree, it's human nature, and, it has happened before, and, will happen again, somewhere........

this does not excuse it ,nor defend it, but, IHMO, it is not a exclusive trait of any one set of people......over the course of human history.........

[wedeliver]

actually, truth be told, Hitler adapted his methodology from both the American treatment of it's Native American population as well as a similar plan used by the South Africans in establishing homelands (reservations).

Simon, I don't recall any mention in Mein Kampf (I read something like the reader's digest condensed version) of America and the Indians. Nor in the many translated speaches I read. I do not know where he got the idea of killing all the jews, although I can remember quotes where he says it would be, "the lords work" to deal with the "Jewish Issue". He blaimed the loss of the first world war and the depression on the Jew's who Hitler claimed, controled all the money. He found a source of funds by confiscating Jewish money and slave labor in the people. I just don't recall Hitler saying anything about the US, except perhaps our use of "Negro" Slaves.

concerning the above and who is more evil Hitler or Attila, etc

The 3rd Reich built Gas Chambers. The chamber had to enclose the people, kill all of them, have vents and equipment to get rid of the gas afterwards so someone could go in there and make it ready for the next group, kinda like disneyland. since there were so many people being killed they buiit massive furnaces in which to burn the bodies. If the war had not ended when it did, what would have happened with these places, like any "factory" the process was just being refined, the assembly process (or disassembly) had kinks and they were just starting to find all the uses of the dead bodies. fuel for heat.. nice..

[ygmir]

I don't disagree it's evil, I just submit evils "degree" is subjective........

[gyre]

The germans studied usa eugenics and sterilization laws.
Don't forget how strong the us fascist movement was at the time either.
They were very careful to pattern laws after the usa so almost everything they did was legal.
It is worth noting that they began by killing germans, disabled and mentally impaired in any way.

They just took us law a step further along is all.
Just as other countries are following the us lead in torture and restrictions on freedom now.

[BAS]

The "production line method" of death was possibly new, and even that was copied from the business world. The killing of the Jews (and other "undesirables") freed up resources, which was part of the method behind the madness. Of course, that was not even Hitler's primary motive, since if it were he wouldn't have been putting the priority on using the railroad to take Jews to the death camps, when a more rational use for the trains would have been taking supplies to the military!

Anyway, it is arguable that, rather than learn from our mistakes, humans instead learn to make the same mistakes in a slightly different manner.

Speaking of the fascist movement in the USA, I would really like to find a good book (or even article) on the planned 1933 coup. A group of business leaders (which, if I recall correctly, included Prescott Bush) allied themselves with a number of military veterans from the First World War, who wanted their pension checks early, due the the Great Depression. They had planned on marching on Washington, DC and taking over, but were primarily stopped when one of the generals they recruited instead turned them in to President Roosevelt. Roosevelt offered the conspirators a choice: either support my New Deal legislation, or be arrested for treason. It would seem that they chose to cooperate.

[Simon of the Playa]

After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures included former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions, from 1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown Brothers Harriman.

The White House did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Although the additional seizures under the Trading with the Enemy Act did not take place until after the war, documents from The National Archives and Library of Congress confirm that Bush and his partners continued their Nazi dealings unabated. These activities included a financial relationship with the German city of Hanover and several industrial concerns. They went undetected by investigators until after World War Two.

At the same time Bush and the Harrimans were profiting from their Nazi partnerships, W. Averell Harriman was serving as President Franklin Delano Roosevelt's personal emissary to the United Kingdom during the toughest years of the war. On October 28, 1942, the same day two key Bush-Harriman-run businesses were being seized by the U.S. government, Harriman was meeting in London with Field Marshall Smuts to discuss the war effort.

Denial and Deceit

While Harriman was concealing his Nazi relationships from his government colleagues, Cornelius Livense, the top executive of the interlocking German concerns held under the corporate umbrella of Union Banking Corporation (UBC), repeatedly tried to mislead investigators, and was sometimes supported in his subterfuge by Brown Brothers Harriman.

All of the assets of UBC and its related businesses belonged to Thyssen-controlled enterprises, including his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart in Rotterdam, the documents state.

Nevertheless, Livense, president of UBC, claimed to have no knowledge of such a relationship. "Strangely enough, (Livense) claims he does not know the actual ownership of the company," states a government report.

H.D Pennington, manager of Brown Brothers Harriman and a director of UBC "for many years," also lied to investigators about the secret and well-concealed relationship with Thyssen's Dutch bank, according to the documents.

Investigators later reported that the company was "wholly owned" by Thyssen's Dutch bank.

Despite such ongoing subterfuge, U.S. investigators were able to show that "a careful examination of UBC's general ledger, cash books and journals from 1919 until the present date clearly establish that the principal and practically only source of funds has been Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart."

In yet another attempt to mislead investigators, Livense said that $240,000 in banknotes in a safe deposit box at Underwriters Trust Co. in New York had been given to him by another UBC-Thyssen associate, H.J. Kouwenhoven, managing director of Thyssen's Dutch bank and a director of the August Thyssen Bank in Berlin. August Thyssen was Fritz's father.

The government report shows that Livense first neglected to report the $240,000, then claimed that it had been given to him as a gift by Kouwenhoven. However, by the time Livense filed a financial disclosure with U.S. officials, he changed his story again and reported the sum as a debt rather than a cash holding.

In yet another attempt to deceive the governments of both the U.S. and Canada, Livense and his partners misreported the facts about the sale of a Canadian Nazi front enterprise, La Cooperative Catholique des Consommateurs de Combustible, which imported German coal into Canada via the web of Thyssen-controlled U.S. businesses.

"The Canadian authorities, however, were not taken in by this maneuver," a U.S. government report states. The coal company was later seized by Canadian authorities.

After the war, a total of 18 additional Brown Brothers Harriman and UBC-related client assets were seized under The Trading with the Enemy Act, including several that showed the continuation of a relationship with the Thyssen family after the initial 1942 seizures.

The records also show that Bush and the Harrimans conducted business after the war with related concerns doing business in or moving assets into Switzerland, Panama, Argentina and Brazil - all critical outposts for the flight of Nazi capital after Germany's surrender in 1945. Fritz Thyssen died in Argentina in 1951.

One of the final seizures, in October 1950, concerned the U.S. assets of a Nazi baroness named Theresia Maria Ida Beneditka Huberta Stanislava Martina von Schwarzenberg, who also used two shorter aliases. Brown Brothers Harriman, where Prescott Bush and the Harrimans were partners, attempted to convince government investigators that the baroness had been a victim of Nazi persecution and therefore should be allowed to maintain her assets.

"It appears, rather, that the subject was a member of the Nazi party," government investigators concluded.

At the same time the last Brown Brothers Harriman client assets were seized, Prescott Bush announced his Senate campaign that led to his election in 1952.

Investigation Investigated?

In 1943, six months after the seizure of UBC and its related companies, a government investigator noted in a Treasury Department memo dated April 8, 1943 that the FBI had inquired about the status of any investigation into Bush and the Harrimans.

"I gave 'a memorandum' which did not say anything about the American officers of subject," the investigator wrote. "(Another investigator) wanted to know whether any specific action had been taken by us with respect to them."

No further action beyond the initial seizures was ever taken, and the newly-confirmed records went unseen by the American people for six decades.

What Does It All Mean?

So why are the documents relevant today?

"The story of Prescott Bush and Brown Brothers Harriman is an introduction to the real history of our country," says L.A. art book publisher and historian Edward Boswell. "It exposes the money-making motives behind our foreign policies, dating back a full century. The ability of Prescott Bush and the Harrimans to bury their checkered pasts also reveals a collusion between Wall Street and the media that exists to this day."

Sheldon Drobny, a Chicago entrepreneur and philanthropist who will soon launch a liberal talk radio network, says the importance of the new documents is that they prove a long pattern of Bush family war profiteering that continues today via George H.W. Bush's intimate relationship with the Saudi royal family and the bin Ladens, conducted via the super-secret Carlyle Group, whose senior advisers include former U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker III.

In the post-9/11 world, Drobny finds the Bush-Saudi connection deeply troubling. "Trading with the enemy is trading with the enemy," he says. "That's the relevance of the documents and what they show."

Lawrence Lader, an abortion rights activist and the author of more than 40 books, says "the relevance lies with the fact that the sitting President of the United States would lead the nation to war based on lies and against the wishes of the rest of the world." Lader and others draw comparisons between President Bush's invasion of Iraq and Hitler's occupation of Poland in 1939 - the event that sparked World War Two.

However, others see an even larger significance.

"The discovery of the Bush-Nazi documents raises new questions about the role of Prescott Bush and his influential business partners in the secret emigration of Nazi war criminals, which allowed them to escape justice in Germany," says Bob Fertik, co-founder of Democrats.com and an amateur 'Nazi hunter.' "It also raises questions about the importance of Nazi recruits to the CIA in its early years, in what was called Operation Paperclip, and Prescott Bush's role in that dark operation."

Fertik and others, including former Justice Department Nazi war crimes prosecutor John Loftus, a Constitutional attorney in Miami, and a former Veterans Administration official, believe Prescott Bush and the Harrimans should have been tried for treason.

What Next?

Now, say Fertik and Loftus, there should be a Congressional investigation into the Bush family's Nazi past and its concealment from the American people for 60 years.

"The American people have a right to know, in detail, about this hidden chapter of our history," says Loftus, author of The Secret War Against the Jews. "That's the only way we can understand it and deal with it."

For his part, Fertik is pessimistic that even a Congressional investigation can thwart the war profiteering of the present Bush White House. "It's impossible to stop it," he says, "when the worst war profiteers are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, who operate in secrecy behind the vast powers of the White House."

John Buchanan is a journalist and magazine writer based in Miami Beach. He can be reached by e-mail at [email protected]

Stacey Michael is a New Orleans-based journalist and the author of Religious Conceit. His most recent book is Weapons of Mass Dysfunction: The Art of "Faith-Based" Politics, due in early 2004. He can be reached by email at
[email protected]

[lurker]

There is also that the Nazis invaded their neighbors and brought their slaughter into the neighboring lands, whereas Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot stuck with slaughtering in their own backyard.

I'm not sure that the Poles would agree with that. Or the Tibetans. Or countless unfortunate millions who lived in places eaten by the USSR.

And Stalin also killed jews, lots and lots of jews. More than Hitler.

But we hate on the Germans, more specifically the Nazis, because they didn't get away with it. Stalin and Mao did. So it's okay

It's also apparently okay to connect the Bushes to the Nazis because of their families actions in the past. Can we do that for the Kennedys, too?

http://hnn.us/articles/697.html

[BAS]

Threads already talked about Stalin, China, etc.

About Bush vs. Kennedy, it does seem that anyone who gathers a lot of power probably has a few skeletons in their closet. What is done with that power, particularly by later generations, is also important. (As is what lessons have been learned from past sins.)

[lurker]

Oh, I know they talked about Stalin and Mao, but that bit I quoted seemed to be saying that they were excused because they commited their genocides only internally, when they didn't.

[BAS]

Yeah, we discussed that part already.

[Simon of the Playa]

shhhhh, leave Lurker alone...


he's spanking it to a picture of ann coulter in Nazi Regalia...



actually, now that i think of it...maybe i will too, but to MY kind of Ann Coulter picture, the ones she used to take before she became "Famous"...

[ygmir]

nice pic Simon.........
now, if we could get a few more participants, we could form a ring around her..........what's that game again?.........

yeehaw........

[lurker]

Is that real, Simon?

Now all she needs to do is gain a few pounds, upgrade to some nice rubber.

And a ballgag is so much better than a scrap of fabric.

Hey, maybe the whole jaw-wired-shut is something her dom had her do.....kinky.