So this is how liberty dies...

[theCryptofishist]

[quote="jkisha"][quote="Apollonaris Zeus"]The following article has been edited for substanced: for the full copy go to: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/us/po ... ience.html


Scientists Welcome Obama’s Words
By GARDINER HARRIS and WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: January 21, 2009
WASHINGTON — When he vowed in his Inaugural Address to “restore science to its rightful place,â€

[Elderberry]

but, I have a great grasp of the obvious..........

Me too. (Or so I've been told )

JK

In your avatar, you're grasping something else.


Obviously.

LMAO

JK

the actions performed by my avatar are his own and do not necessarily reflect the actions of the owner of said avatar

[betrdanevr]

But given that someone has to have the job, I prefer someone who has intelligence and good will, someone who has refused to be vindictive despite ample opportunity, someone who wants to actually respect science, and someone who has a record of choosing good advisors and listening to them.

Not only could we do much worse than Obama, we have recently endured much worse. If you are worried now then you should have been absolutely terrified 8 years ago.

Great post, Dr.!

[Elderberry]

He's halted all pending federal legislation." I don't everything that included, but further distruction of the Endangered Species Act was included.

Are you sure of this? It was my understanding that the legislation he was halting were all of those last minute things that the Bush administration tried to sign into law in his final month in office. If my understanding is correct, I would think that Obama halting them would probably protect endangered species. Or is that what you meant?

JK

[Box Burner]

I find it interesting how some people call it a forboding and others call it hope.

How is this any different from when the whole country came together behind GWB right after 9/11? Every car in the entire country had a flag on it. We would have done anything he asked--and we did--think patriot act again here!

Why is blind patriotism good for war but forboding when done for peace and good?

JK

Blind patriotism is stupid. That's how the Germans got led into world war II.

for me, it is the non stop erosion of our rights and liberties, for the sake of comfort and "safety"......
both parties do it......some seem more draconian, but, overall, it's a constant slide down hill.......
Obama IMHO, will be no different.........

Sure, if you agree with a certain prez, you think his new "laws" or "edicts", "policies", whatever, are for our own good, and, will be good, and, keep us safe.......or help us......

well.

there's a quote, I'm probably butchering:
"the price of freedom is danger".......
or:
"he who trades freedom for safetey, deserves neither"......

I want to be free.

I see both parties eroding freedoms, just, from different directions.
Whether it be guns, taxes, personal decisions, associations,....on and on.....

I've seen no let up, either......

Whether we lose freedoms incrementally, or, in big chunks, we still lose them.......and with them, the ability to pursue our dreams.......

I think, for me, the foreboding is that, within his popularity, few will stand up for my freedoms, if, he wants them abridged......or taken.

I hope I'm wrong.....time will tell.........

I just hope, many who champion this "change" will keep their eyes wide open.........
realize, that, certain powers, while in the hands of people you like and trust, can be beneficial, in the "wrong" hands, can crush you........
Always keep the double edged sword analogy in mind........

You got it right. Even if the quote was slightly off. here is the quote along with a few othrs.




"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." -- Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884)

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." ------ Benjamin Franklin

"Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security." ------ Benjamin Franklin

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of power. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster, as quoted in Hearings on the confirmation of Abe Fortas to be an associate justice of the Supreme Court, p. 108

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." – Thomas Jefferson


"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free." -- Sir Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I've set my own rules to live by. The first one is: 'Never believe ANYthing the government says.' "
-- George Carlin


Keep in mind that the battle that brought the American colonies and England to war, the Battle of Lexington and Concord, was fought over the right to keep and bear arms. Specifically, arms that were intended to be used against their own government. That government being King George and the English Parliament.


We were wrong to Trust the Bushes, we would be equally wrong to trust Obama. As I have said the Democrats and the Republicans are two sides of the same wooden nickel. I have hope. But to do what needs to be done President Obama is going to have to buck both parties. How long will it be before the Democrats turn on him? Or will he buckle under the pressure. Only time will tell.

one more quote

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine

[dr.placebo]

Blind patriotism is stupid. That's how the Germans got led into world war II.

And that same appeal dragged us into Vietnam and Iraq.

I'm no fan of blind patriotism. And I don't trust blindly, either. Although I support Obama on most things, it is because his positions have earned that support. And as President he will have to continue to earn it. I am happy that he has already moved to put US practices on a more moral basis, and I hope that he continues.

Give Obama a few months before getting upset. If you love liberty then I think you might be pleasantly surprised compared to the recent regime. I don't believe that Obama is a demagogue. I think that he is a pragmatist, and that he respects the Constitution and the Bill of Rights more than any president of the recent past.

[Box Burner]

I am not upset. As I said, I have hope.

[can't sit still]

I'm glad he's doing everything on a moral basis;
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php? ... geId=86827

[ygmir]

I find it interesting how some people call it a forboding and others call it hope.

How is this any different from when the whole country came together behind GWB right after 9/11? Every car in the entire country had a flag on it. We would have done anything he asked--and we did--think patriot act again here!

Why is blind patriotism good for war but forboding when done for peace and good?

JK

Blind patriotism is stupid. That's how the Germans got led into world war II.

for me, it is the non stop erosion of our rights and liberties, for the sake of comfort and "safety"......
both parties do it......some seem more draconian, but, overall, it's a constant slide down hill.......
Obama IMHO, will be no different.........

Sure, if you agree with a certain prez, you think his new "laws" or "edicts", "policies", whatever, are for our own good, and, will be good, and, keep us safe.......or help us......

well.

there's a quote, I'm probably butchering:
"the price of freedom is danger".......
or:
"he who trades freedom for safetey, deserves neither"......

I want to be free.

I see both parties eroding freedoms, just, from different directions.
Whether it be guns, taxes, personal decisions, associations,....on and on.....

I've seen no let up, either......

Whether we lose freedoms incrementally, or, in big chunks, we still lose them.......and with them, the ability to pursue our dreams.......

I think, for me, the foreboding is that, within his popularity, few will stand up for my freedoms, if, he wants them abridged......or taken.

I hope I'm wrong.....time will tell.........

I just hope, many who champion this "change" will keep their eyes wide open.........
realize, that, certain powers, while in the hands of people you like and trust, can be beneficial, in the "wrong" hands, can crush you........
Always keep the double edged sword analogy in mind........

You got it right. Even if the quote was slightly off. here is the quote along with a few othrs.




"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." -- Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884)

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." ------ Benjamin Franklin

"Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security." ------ Benjamin Franklin

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of power. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster, as quoted in Hearings on the confirmation of Abe Fortas to be an associate justice of the Supreme Court, p. 108

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." – Thomas Jefferson


"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free." -- Sir Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson

"I've set my own rules to live by. The first one is: 'Never believe ANYthing the government says.' "
-- George Carlin


Keep in mind that the battle that brought the American colonies and England to war, the Battle of Lexington and Concord, was fought over the right to keep and bear arms. Specifically, arms that were intended to be used against their own government. That government being King George and the English Parliament.


We were wrong to Trust the Bushes, we would be equally wrong to trust Obama. As I have said the Democrats and the Republicans are two sides of the same wooden nickel. I have hope. But to do what needs to be done President Obama is going to have to buck both parties. How long will it be before the Democrats turn on him? Or will he buckle under the pressure. Only time will tell.

one more quote

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine

thanks for the clarifications, and, added quotes, BB, all good and applicable, even in these days, maybe especially in these days..........

the above highlighted text, reminds me of another..........again, I'm sure I paraphrase.......:

"A well armed populace is the last thing standing between freedom and tyranny"..........

I feel, the government should fear the people, not the reverse.
I'd hope, the government will respect the people and, vice versa.......

I remain, cynically hopeful...........

[dr.placebo]

I'm glad he's doing everything on a moral basis;
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php? ... geId=86827

Just for background, the net mag WorldNetDaily is a right-wing rant forum that features doom and gloom predictions about the so-called left wing conspiracy to take over America. WND [Weapons of Neural Distruction?] features ads for autographed copies of Ann Coulter's new book and other gems of objectivity. The cited article was on Obama advisor Robert Reich (Secretary of Labor under Clinton).

Citing WND on Obama, or anyone associated with Obama, carries all the weight of citing Pravda on Barry Goldwater.

[Ugly Dougly]

Aye, and it's called "Cherry Picking".

The full quote:
"I am concerned, as I'm sure many of you are, that these jobs not simply go to high skilled people who are already professionals or to white male construction workers," he said.

Reich belonging to one of those classes of course.

[ygmir]

I'm glad he's doing everything on a moral basis;
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php? ... geId=86827

Just for background, the net mag WorldNetDaily is a right-wing rant forum that features doom and gloom predictions about the so-called left wing conspiracy to take over America. WND [Weapons of Neural Distruction?] features ads for autographed copies of Ann Coulter's new book and other gems of objectivity. The cited article was on Obama advisor Robert Reich (Secretary of Labor under Clinton).

Citing WND on Obama, or anyone associated with Obama, carries all the weight of citing Pravda on Barry Goldwater.

Doc,
I understand what you write, and, even agree with the above.

I might add, that, every publication, is skewed, according to it's "leaning right or left", and, all should be taken that way..........
They all have a "lean" admittedly, some more than others, but, they do.
And, a lot of the perception of lean comes from the readers own bias.

All I'm saying is, I think it's good to read the far as well as centrist leaning information, and, draw ones own conclusions..........
And, we all tend tho think we are with the majority thinking, and, are therefore centrist.

none of them are neutral........IMHO......all have some sort of agenda.

I note, that, the more both sides bitch about a certain article, if both bitch, or, the more they agree, the closer to unbiased it is..........

kind of like the bartering/business parable:
if both parties feel cheated, or, both feel they "won", it was probably fair........

just a random thought.

[dr.placebo]

Actually, I don't object to citing right-wing or left-wing or centrist sources. Political leaning aside, though, WorldNetDaily has no depth or credibility. It's fine to cite it, or read, or even write for it. First Amendment, dontcha know. My comment was about the veracity of WND.

On a lighter note, courtesy of Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs. ... -is-wicked), we have:



No endorsement implied.

[theCryptofishist]

He's halted all pending federal legislation." I don't everything that included, but further distruction of the Endangered Species Act was included.

Are you sure of this? It was my understanding that the legislation he was halting were all of those last minute things that the Bush administration tried to sign into law in his final month in office. If my understanding is correct, I would think that Obama halting them would probably protect endangered species. Or is that what you meant?

Whoops, was in a hurry last night. I meant "all pending regulations." This would be stuff published in the Federal Register, in the last 60 days. The older regulatory stuff (some of which concerns the people I work with) stays, without going into a more involved process.

[can't sit still]

Here's another brick in the wall;
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl3/dhs-takeover.html

[Trishntek]

Here's another brick in the wall;
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl3/dhs-takeover.html

Thanks for the update on our "progressive" liberty in action CSS.

[Thecatman]

That, is so sad . Thanks for the heads up CSS.

[1durphul]

That, is so sad . Thanks for the heads up CSS.

Yeah it's awful those "see a suspicious package report it" campaigns that started with Ashcroft and the TIPS program.

I love this thread starts on Day 1 of the Obama admin, as if he'd done even a single thing at that point.

I remember driving down to LA from SF and listening to Hanity, 3 weeks before Obama took office, talking about how Obama was turning the country into a communist dictatorship.

Obama is right of center and only liberal in the eyes of far right nuts.

[TomServo]

I had to post this. For the lat 2 weeks I have had this as my email sig, since Obama was elected actually:

My thoughts when Obama was elected are summed up well in this quote by George Lucas:

So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause.

I though I was the only one for a while, but after looking for that specific quote, it appears that many people share that same sentiment.

So This Is How Liberty Dies

Death of Liberty: Barack Obama

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Obama has the potential to really fuck the US up?

That line from star wars, was aimed at George W. Im done with playing politics, but my final thought on the subject...Rebublicans are the biggest threat to our country! Fuck em all!

[can't sit still]

1durphul, next time that you drive from the bay area to L.A. , check out the 2 huge inspection stations at milepost 319,, near Avenal. I have a bunch of pics but, can't post due to technical problems
GOV must be pretty scared of the populace. The Patriot act is deemed necessary,, still. The TSA is allowed to continue unchecked even though it has proved to be useless. Homeland security has all the appearance of a domestic goon-squad that answers to no one.
Jesse Ventura has some footage of a "housing project" that is for families,,, is completely fenced,,,, and has signs posted that forbid bring in objects that could be used to effect an escape.

I don't claim that his stuff is straight-up. He DOES have some interesting footage though.

Did you notice that you can be considered suspicious if you use cash and don't have a credit card. That is telling. ALL of this bullshit focuses on CONTROL. In many ways, control is the antithesis of productivity. Look at the GDP of North Korea.

As far as Rep or Dem, I make no distinction. Quoting Robin Williams from " Hook",,,, "kill them,,, kill them ALL"

[ygmir]

I had to post this. For the lat 2 weeks I have had this as my email sig, since Obama was elected actually:

My thoughts when Obama was elected are summed up well in this quote by George Lucas:

So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause.

I though I was the only one for a while, but after looking for that specific quote, it appears that many people share that same sentiment.

So This Is How Liberty Dies

Death of Liberty: Barack Obama

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Obama has the potential to really fuck the US up?

That line from star wars, was aimed at George W. Im done with playing politics, but my final thought on the subject...Rebublicans are the biggest threat to our country! Fuck em all!

yeah, make an inflammatory statement like that, prejudicial, and then say "I'm done"........yup, nice call.
It's generalizations like that, that, keep people polarized.

I"m sorry to hear that.

[Rabbi Dali Rick]

We are a nation of individuals, bound together by our rights to be so...


the rebbi

[ygmir]

We are a nation of individuals, bound together by our rights to be so...


the rebbi

+1

[1durphul]

1durphul, next time that you drive from the bay area to L.A. , check out the 2 huge inspection stations at milepost 319,, near Avenal. I have a bunch of pics but, can't post due to technical problems

Hmmm, if the pics are off your camera and on your computer feel free to PM me and I can help you figure out how to get them online. I would be interested in seeing the photos. I have driven the 5 on average of once a month for the past two years. Aside from the 70/80s weigh stations near Los Banos I haven't seen anything. I looked up the town you mentioned and it is on the 33. There are a lot of oil fields in that area which could make it a higher priority for DHS funds. I don't know. I'd like to see your photos though.

checkpointUSA has some really interesting videos of DHS checkpoints that began during the last administration. I've watched most of them. I don't care if it is Obama or Bush, those really strike me as abuses of decisions handed down by the Supreme Court.

objects that could be used to effect an escape.

I don't claim that his stuff is straight-up. He DOES have some interesting footage though.

I'm so glad you added that caveat. This show reminds me of Michael Moore with out any humor and all scare. I watched the entire episode (all 3 videos on youtube) and while there was interesting video footage, I'm not ignorant to editing trickery, especially when it is done in such a heavy handed way as it was in this.

The problem of the executive to declare martial law is a problem. It was a problem under Clinton, under Bush, and continues to be a problem under Obama.

The people in those residential centers are families that have come illegally to the US. We can either build residential centers where the family can remain intact through the legal process, or we can put the parents in jail, and the children in juvenile hall. Since most illegal immigrant families that are caught are probably at their core good people trying to make their lives better I'd rather they were in a comfortable jail than a real jail.

Did you notice that you can be considered suspicious if you use cash and don't have a credit card. That is telling. ALL of this bullshit focuses on CONTROL. In many ways, control is the antithesis of productivity. Look at the GDP of North Korea.

As far as Rep or Dem, I make no distinction. Quoting Robin Williams from " Hook",,,, "kill them,,, kill them ALL"

kill them? really? That's cocoa puff talk!

[Simon of the Playa]

Rebublicans are the biggest threat to our country!

+1000


an idiot like Lew Rockwell and his pack of rabid dog believers are the problem.

tea-baggers, fed freaks, birthers and tin foilies yeah, i'm talking to you CSS, are the worst.

you wanna know why?

you're knowingly spreading a disease, the disease of disinformation, half truths and malignant speech designed for one purpose and one purpose only..

to further your political agenda.

why dont you take this shit where it belongs, on the cover of Weekly World News along with the lady Di stories and the talking dogs.

i'm done.

you're an intellectual smurf if you actually believe the crap you post....

worse, you're intentionally feeding us horsecrap to further whatever nonsense in defaultia you wanna push.

well this is e-playa, and even though we like to play fast and loose with the facts it seems.

i dont.

you and your ilk at Fox 'News" make me Ill.

[ygmir]

well.
I have friends who are reps, and dems........and, damn good folks.
and, if anyone needs to stereotype all of a certain persuasion, based on the actions of a fraction thereof.........I feel you are sorely mistaken.

There are wacks, on both sides.
There are fringes, on any blanket, and, to throw it out because it's frayed on the edges, well, I just disagree.

What happened to "radical inclusion"?
Is that only if you agree anyway?

I disagree (an love) you guys on this attitude.

[Simon of the Playa]

you're right...I Like Ike, and Abraham Lincoln, and Dick Lugar.

all republicans.


i stand corrected.

It's the Lunatic fringe that has Taken over the republican Party by having oral sex with the Tea-Baggers, and then bringing that shit home with them to infect the rest of the horde.

it is what it is.

[1durphul]

...
tea-baggers, fed freaks, birthers and tin foilies yeah, i'm talking to you CSS, are the worst.

You know, CSS was pretty right on about the huge financial crisis. If you look at the Long Cold Winter thread's start date it was about 6 months before the financial crisis started.

I think since then though he's found himself in an echo chamber and has stopped looking for news external to the echo chamber which could disprove some fo the assertions echoing in the chamber.

This can happen to anybody. When we focus on something it becomes a forest through the trees deal. I'm probably experiencing it currently in regard to entrance issues at the event and my focus on that thread.

Point is, I think CSS would benefit from taking a step back and reassessing the the things he is looking at and draw in additional sources that he knows don't have an agenda on the topic.

[Simon of the Playa]

...
tea-baggers, fed freaks, birthers and tin foilies yeah, i'm talking to you CSS, are the worst.

You know, CSS was pretty right on about the huge financial crisis. If you look at the Long Cold Winter thread's start date it was about 6 months before the financial crisis started.

I think since then though he's found himself in an echo chamber and has stopped looking for news external to the echo chamber which could disprove some fo the assertions echoing in the chamber.

This can happen to anybody. When we focus on something it becomes a forest through the trees deal. I'm probably experiencing it currently in regard to entrance issues at the event and my focus on that thread.

Point is, I think CSS would benefit from taking a step back and reassessing the the things he is looking at and draw in additional sources that he knows don't have an agenda on the topic.

we agree to agree.


a step back is always helpful in most things.

[Oldguy]

I am a babyboomer who got his first SSI cheak this week. I was informed by my worker that this summer that benefits would be paid out with debit cards or direct deposit to a bank. We are going to a paperless system this Summer. I got my "Direct Express" debit card application today in the mail. I deposited my check in the local bank into a no fee senior's account.

I find it disturbing that we are moving from a nanny-state to a caretaker-state. I like handling my own checks instead of punching numbers into an ATM machine.

Has BMorg considered going to a paperless system, where we just swipe our debit card at the gate? It would be, oh, so much easier...