israel, judaism, jews and zionism

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Post by Elderberry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:38 am

can't sit still wrote:jkisha, you're correct, of course. The fascinating thing is that they've found Adam and Eve. Through all the cataclysm of the last few million years, there have been huge die-offs. They claim that DNA proves that we're all descended from just 1 female that lived a long time ago. Adam lived about 250,000 years before or after her. Doing it all from memory.
Well, you must be using Adam and Eve in a figurative sense, as according to the Bible, they couldn't be more than 6,000 years old, no?

Actually, here are links to two of the most credible of the projects. I don't think there is any reference her to research that was specific enough to trace our heritage to any one or two individuals.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic. ... index.html

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/H ... tion.shtml

More research--There is a figurative 'adam and eve' I see from this article
http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature ... index.html
JK
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Post by ygmir » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:04 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:and she was a shiksa.
I'd have thought a Rottweiler.........
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Post by can't sit still » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:41 am

Toolmaker, my vid ability is off and on thanks to Ubuntu problems. I haven't yet seen the posted vid. The West has had an unending series of movies that show just how bad the nazi were. Since most of the media is owned by jews, there is little opposing info allowed.
http://www.henrymakow.com/the_greatest_ ... ood_n.html

I'm tired of seeing the Germans endlessly vilified. The US caused many of the problems that led to the rise of the nazi. Our reparation demands were guaranteed to destroy Germany.
European countries conspired against Germany and vice-versa. People got killed and people got persecuted. It was business as usual for Europe. Let it rest. But no, Simon Weisenthal and his ilk have to continuously shove it in our faces. We hear holocaust and showa til we're sick and tired of it. How many movies do we see about the Armenian genocide? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
10 million died in the Ukranian genocide,,, conducted by the mostly jewish bolshevics.
It's true that we MUST lean from history. But, Give it a rest on the Germans.

The jews own hollywood so they make pictures about jewish problems. I'm tired of it and tired of the lack of objectivity. israel seems to be the mother country to hollywood; http://www.pwpl.org/media/jewish.html
Spielberg never won much until he did pics showing the persecution of jews. Munich and Schlinder's list won him tons of oscars.
Do a movie on the holocaust,,,,, get an oscar. It's that simple; http://www.jewishreview.org/node/12072
I'm tired of the endless barrage of propaganda.
Dan
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Post by Elderberry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:45 am

Interesting. As a wise man once said (It might have been Ygmir), we tend to see what we want to see. I think I live in the same world as everyone else, but I don't see near the slant as some have posted here.

OH, and I'm not Jewish! Not that there's anything wrong with that.

JK
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Post by can't sit still » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:51 am

Objectivity is a tough one,,, no doubt.
I'm going to post some info on Deuteronomy. It's a bit long winded but, it covers a lot of ground very well.
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Post by can't sit still » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:55 am

I believe that this is worth reading or I wouldn't post it.


Chapter 3
THE LEVITES AND THE LAW
During the hundred years that followed the Assyrian conquest of Israel, the Levites in Judah began to compile the written Law. In 621 BC, they produced Deuteronomy and read it to the people in the temple at Jerusalem.
This was the birth of “the Mosaic law,â€
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Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:00 pm

[youtube][/youtube]
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Post by DVD Burner » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:55 pm

Protest For Gaza, Against BBC Charity Broadcast refusal | London

[youtube][/youtube]

Top Anglican Criticizes BBC for Refusing Gaza Aid Appeal

By VOA News

25 January 2009

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-01-25-voa21.cfm

The leader of the Church of England says the British Broadcasting Corporation should air an appeal for humanitarian aid for civilians in the Gaza Strip.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, Sunday made his comments as more than 50 British lawmakers announced a petition urging the BBC to run the appeal.

The UK's national broadcaster says it rejected the appeal because it did not want to harm its image as an impartial news source. The BBC also questioned whether the aid will reach those who need it.

The organization seeking to advertise its appeal, the Disasters Emergency Committee, is a grouping of 13 aid agencies that aid people in crisis. The group says it is not political, and that it is seeking funds to help innocent people affected by the conflict in Gaza.

Some information for this report was provided by AFP and AP.
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Post by DVD Burner » Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:45 pm

Ok, Just a little bit of humor here:


[youtube][/youtube]



Ok, now the Thomas Friedman article TYT refers to:


Thomas Friedman: Is Israel's goal to eradicate or educate?


Thursday, January 15
( updated 3:00 am)
By Thomas Friedman

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:Eu ... =firefox-a

I have only one question about Israel's military operation in Gaza: What is the goal? Is it the education of Hamas or the eradication of Hamas? I hope that it's the education of Hamas. Let me explain why.

I was one of the few people who argued back in 2006 that Israel actually won the war in Lebanon started by Hezbollah. You need to study that war to understand Gaza and how it is part of a new strategic ballgame in the Arab-Israel arena, which will demand of the Obama team a new approach.

What Hezbollah did in 2006 -- in launching an unprovoked war across the U.N.-recognized Israel-Lebanon border, after Israel had unilaterally withdrawn from Lebanon -- was to both upend Israel's longstanding peace strategy and to unveil a new phase in the Hezbollah-Iran war strategy against Israel.

There have always been two camps in Israel when it comes to the logic of peace, notes Gidi Grinstein, president of the Israeli think tank, the Reut Institute: One camp says that all the problems Israel faces from the Palestinians or Lebanese emanate from occupying their territories. "Therefore, the fundamental problem is staying -- and the fundamental remedy is leaving," says Grinstein.

The other camp argues that Israel's Arab foes are implacably hostile and leaving would only invite more hostility. Therefore, at least when it comes to the Palestinians, Israel needs to control their territories indefinitely. Since the mid-1990s, the first camp has dominated Israeli thinking. This led to the withdrawals from the West Bank, Lebanon and Gaza.

Hezbollah's attack from Lebanon into Israel both undermined the argument that withdrawal led to security and presented Israel with a much more vexing military strategy aimed at neutralizing Israel's military superiority. Hezbollah created a very "flat" military network, built on small teams of guerrillas and mobile missile-batteries, deeply embedded in the local towns and villages.

And this Hezbollah force, rather than confronting Israel's army head-on, focused on demoralizing Israeli civilians with rockets in their homes, challenging Israel to inflict massive civilian casualties in order to hit Hezbollah fighters.

Israel's counterstrategy was to use its Air Force to pummel Hezbollah and, while not directly targeting the Lebanese civilians with whom Hezbollah was intertwined, to inflict substantial property damage and collateral casualties on Lebanon at large. It was not pretty, but it was logical. Israel basically said that when dealing with a nonstate actor, the only long-term source of deterrence was to exact enough pain on the civilians -- the families and employers of the militants -- to restrain Hezbollah in the future.

Israel's military was not focused on the morning after the war in Lebanon -- when Hezbollah declared victory and the Israeli press declared defeat. It was focused on the morning after the morning after, when all the real business happens in the Middle East. That's when Lebanese civilians, in anguish, said to Hezbollah: "What were you thinking? Look what destruction you have visited on your own community! For what? For whom?"

Here's what Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's leader, said the morning after the morning after about his decision to start that war by abducting two Israeli soldiers on July 12, 2006: "We did not think, even 1 percent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude. You ask me, if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not."

That was the education of Hezbollah. Has Israel seen its last conflict with Hezbollah? I doubt it. But Hezbollah, which has done nothing for Hamas, will think three times next time. That is probably all Israel can achieve with a nonstate actor.

In Gaza, I still can't tell if Israel is trying to eradicate Hamas or trying to "educate" Hamas, by inflicting a heavy death toll on Hamas militants and heavy pain on the Gaza population. If it is out to destroy Hamas, casualties will be horrific and the aftermath could be Somalia-like chaos. If it is out to educate Hamas, Israel may have achieved its aims. Now its focus, and the Obama team's focus, should be on creating a clear choice for Hamas for the world to see: Are you about destroying Israel or building Gaza?

But that requires diplomacy. Israel de facto recognizes Hamas' right to rule Gaza and to provide for the well-being and security of the people of Gaza -- which was actually Hamas' original campaign message, not rocketing Israel. And, in return, Hamas has to signal a willingness to assume responsibility for a lasting cease-fire and to abandon efforts to change the strategic equation with Israel by deploying longer and longer range rockets. That's the only deal. Let's give it a try.

Thomas Friedman is a columnist for The New York Times.
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Post by Elderberry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:38 pm

Anybody see 60 Minutes tonight?

I don't think you can accuse them of not being fair and balanced on the Jewish/Palistinian issue. And last time I checked they were MSM.

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Post by DVD Burner » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:02 pm

Israel Screwed Itself Over with Its Gaza Assault; the World Sees It as a 'Blood-Stained Monster'

By Uri Avnery, CounterPunch. Posted January 24, 2009.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/121848/i ... onster%27/

The Israeli author warns that his country has made a tragic mistake: "This war is a crime against ourselves .. a crime against the State of Israel.
"
Editor's note: In this powerful essay, Uri Avnery writes that Israel's latest assault on Gaza has backfired spectacularly for the country's long-term interests. He writes, "Seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a bloodstained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for [Israel's] long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet."

Avnery also writes that the true purpose of Israel's invasion, "(apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different." Yet, he argues, "Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse."

Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books -- if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as "hostages" and exploit the women and children as "human shields", they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

In this war, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army -- with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery and tanks -- and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.

Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government ("The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets") has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.

Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens, did world public opinion gradually begin to change.


True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on Aljazeera's Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.

War -- every war -- is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one's country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.

An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.

Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army "revealed" that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Later the official liar claimed that "our soldiers were shot at from inside the school". Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.

But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that "they shot from inside the school", and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.
So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a "symbol of Hamas rule". Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the "most moral army in the world".

The truth is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak -- a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called "moral insanity", a sociopathic disorder.

The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.

The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel -- neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population -- not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun and the Stern Group in the past -- but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.

From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not "hide behind the population", the population views them as their only defenders.

Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.

He who gives the order for such a war with such methods in a densely populated area knows that it will cause dreadful slaughter of civilians. Apparently that did not touch him. Or he believed that "they will change their ways" and "it will sear their consciousness", so that in future they will not dare to resist Israel.
A top priority for the planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.

This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.
Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side.
That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare -- and that has been its Achilles heel.
A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: "Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader") cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: "Mama! Mama!"

The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage. The Israeli journalists, to their shame, agreed to be satisfied with the reports and photos provided by the Army Spokesman, as if they were authentic news, while they themselves remained miles away from the events. Foreign journalists were not allowed in either, until they protested and were taken for quick tours in selected and supervised groups. But in a modern war, such a sterile manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others -- the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Aljazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home.

The battle for the TV screen is one of the decisive battles of the war.
Hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Many of the viewers see the rulers of Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority as collaborators with Israel in carrying out these atrocities against their Palestinian brothers.

The security services of the Arab regimes are registering a dangerous ferment among the peoples. Hosny Mubarak, the most exposed Arab leader because of his closing of the Rafah crossing in the face of terrified refugees, started to pressure the decision-makers in Washington, who until that time had blocked all calls for a cease-fire. These began to understand the menace to vital American interests in the Arab world and suddenly changed their attitude -- causing consternation among the complacent Israeli diplomats.

People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. "How many divisions has the Pope?" Stalin sneered. "How many divisions have people of conscience?" Ehud Barak may well be asking.

As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.

The failure to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.

Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.


If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.


What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.


In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.
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Post by can't sit still » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:48 pm

I didn't see 60 minutes. Did they talk about the use of phosphorous or the DIME weapons.
The sad fact is that Israel could; have a homeland in Palestine if they just quit insisting on religious purity. Israel does 500 abortions of jewish fetuses a week mostly because of economic problems. If they would quit the fucking garrison concept for their zionist dream, they could have peace and growth.
If they just dropped the fucking idea of 100% ownership of Jerusalem, they could work towards peace and prosperity for all. The hard-core jews are the worst enemy of judaism.
The jews and arabs got along historically. The insistence on purity is a recent development that came along with the Khazars. The dumb fucks hated purity in Berlin and Kiev. Why do they insist on purity in palestine?
Drop the purity issue and judaism would be less problematic than christianity.
Stupidity and death.
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Post by Elderberry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:58 pm

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Post by diane o'thirst » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:22 pm

I'm probably going to get neck-deep in flames for this, but this is where I stand on the situation over there.

Hopefully, we can all agree that Israel's bombing a hospital last week was nothing short of flat-out evil. They can say that they're defending themselves but I seriously doubt that a hospital full of sick and injured Gazans and the doctors and nurses charged with keeping them alive, harbours any immediate threat to the nation of Israel.

Digg.com is crawling with articles on what the IDF has done and streams of comments that read like the Nile...complete with crocodiles, mostly from uber-conservatives and Zionists defending their actions. (For the record, I know there's a difference between Jews and Zionists, and make that distinction here) From the other side, are people like me expressing condemnation and outrage.

The IDF have no business blowing up hospitals, schools and warehouses where humanitarian aid is being held. It could be true that Hamas are hiding in schools to keep children between them and the IDF; be that as it may, I have to wonder why the IDF aren't allowing women and their children to leave Gaza during the daily three-hour window when they let aid workers enter. The Nazis, at the very least, allowed the children of London to get out during the Blitz. In any event, if the chickenshit Israeli army thugs would just grow a pair and walk in to get the Hamas baddies by hand, instead of rocketing the whole building...

From my view, Gaza is being turned into Meggido. You know, that dump outside Jerusalem where the worshipers of Moloch threw children into the fiery pit, like so much garbage? Only it's not Hebrew children, it's Palestinian.

President Obama's stance on the side of Israel has made me very angry, but given that he tapped Rahm Emmanuel and Joe Biden, two outspoken Zionists, as his right- and left-hand men, I'm not altogether surprised. No, that's not a profession of regret for voting for him; what's done is done and I'm not ready to spend another 4-8 years hating my President. But you bet I wrote him at Whitehouse.gov and gave his IT staff what for.

Sometimes I wonder why conservatives are okay with the state of Israel and down on abortion. I think I'm beginning to piece it together...they want more soldiers, because I get the feeling we'll be embroiled in the war for Israel as soon as we finish the other two wars we're in.

I'm getting some spiritual beckonings from Mithras's direction. The interesting thing about the Mithraeus cult is the edicts of "Friendship to All, Temperance at all times, Compassion even in Victory." He was born of Anahita, Persian Goddess of the Night and Horses, and She's been smiling in my direction, too. Screw Abraham and the Zionist's monster god — I'll stick with Mitra and Anahita.
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Post by DVD Burner » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:40 pm

That was a good 60 minutes site.
Nice to show what the IDF is actually doing in Israel no less to Arabs.
Nice to see the settlers and the problems they are causing on American TV for a change.
It would be nice if American TV would show all of what Israel is doing and how racist they have been over the decades.

It's ugly but true. It is what Israel is doing and has been doing for decades.
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Post by DVD Burner » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:46 pm

Whoa!

diane o'thirst is here?

Now I am impressed and also impressed with her post.
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:19 am

Israel's Gaza War Crimes at ICC


By Hadi Yahmid, IOL Correspondent

PARIS — A coalition of 350 European and Arab civil society organizations has filed a lawsuit with the International Criminal Court (ICC) against war crimes committed by the Israeli army during its latest onslaught on the Gaza Strip.

"The lawsuit is backed by all Palestinian political parties," Haitham Manaa, a coordinator for the International Coalition for Trying Israeli War Criminals, told IslamOnline.net.

He said the lawsuit, submitted to ICC Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo Friday, accuses Israel of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity during its 22-day military offensive against Gaza, a coastal enclave home to 1.6 million.

Established in 2002, the ICC prosecutes individuals for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Israeli troops killed more than 1,350 Palestinians, half of them women and children, and injured 5,450 in air, sea and land attacks against the densely-populated strip.

The massive bombardment has also wrecked havoc on Gaza's infrastructure, leaving thousands of homes, government buildings, schools, hospitals and even mosque in ruins.

Foreign and Arab doctors documented abnormal injuries suffered by the civilian population of Gaza, accusing Israel of using banned weapons.

Under international pressures, Israel admitted Saturday using white phosphorous, a chemical that burns away human flesh to the bone, in shelling Gaza.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have accused Israel of unlawful and discriminate attacks against Gaza civilians.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has called for holding Israelis responsible for attacks on UN buildings in Gaza.

War Criminals

Manaa said the international coalition will ask the UN General Assembly to establish a war crimes tribunal to try Israeli officials.

"A lawsuit will also be filed in Switzerland regarding Israel's violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

In 2005, reserve Major-General Doron Almog, the former head of Israeli forces in Gaza, was warned not to leave an El Al aircraft that landed in London after a tip-off that British police were about to arrest him on war crimes charges.

A British Muslim group had won an arrest warrant against him for breaching the Fourth Geneva Convention in the demolition of Gaza homes in 2002.

Fearing similar legal action, Israel's military censor has banned the publication of the identity of the unit leaders who took part in the deadly blitz in Gaza.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert also vowed on Sunday legal protection for Israeli troops against war crimes charges.

"The commanders and soldiers sent to Gaza need to know that they are completely safe from different tribunals and Israel will help and protect them."

Manaa said that the international coalition would also file lawsuits in European countries, whose legislation allow trial of war criminals.

"Lawsuits will also be filed against Israel in countries, whose property in Gaza have been destroyed such as Norway."

The coalition also plans a lawsuit in Belgian courts demanding the abolition of a European agreement to upgrade relations with Israel.

"The coalition is also mulling lawsuits against weapons firms providing Israel with arms."
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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:01 am

[quote="can't sit still"]The Talmud, as quoted by Dr. Funk, says, “God foresaw that one day a time would come when the Heathen would possess themselves of the Torah and would say to Israel, ‘We, too, are sons of God.’ Then will the Lord say: ‘Only he who knows my secrets is my son.’ And what are the secrets of God? The oral teachings.â€
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Post by ygmir » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:12 am

[quote="diane o'thirst"][quote="can't sit still"]The Talmud, as quoted by Dr. Funk, says, “God foresaw that one day a time would come when the Heathen would possess themselves of the Torah and would say to Israel, ‘We, too, are sons of God.’ Then will the Lord say: ‘Only he who knows my secrets is my son.’ And what are the secrets of God? The oral teachings.â€
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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:23 am

Diane, the flames are in Palestine, not on this thread. If discourse and debate can't illuminate the truth, denigration won't make it any clearer. We should hope to expose facts and then let the truth rise up on it's own. Flaming people will turn away people who might add a truth to the picture.
For some reason Dr Pyro posted something about fucking useless goyim. It takes two to conduct a flame war. I won't go there.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:45 am

Yes, this is copied from rense. I don't know yet if it is authentic;

Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons.

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets of our air force."

Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, pointed out that "collective deportation" was Israel's only meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people.

"The Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent."

Creveld said he was sure that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wanted to deport the Palestinians.

"I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed."

Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rogue state if it carried out a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:33 am

German Jews condemn pope move over Holocaust denier

Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:16am EST

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... YF20090126

BERLIN (Reuters) - Pope Benedict's rehabilitation of a bishop who has denied the full extent of the Holocaust is a slap in the face for the Jewish community, especially coming from a German pope, Germany's Central Council of Jews said on Monday.

"It's a deep shock," Dieter Graumann, the Council's vice-president, told Reuters. "I'm not imputing bad intentions to the Vatican or the pope, but in fact this is a slap in the face for the Jewish community."

"It's a provocation and I'm worried that dialogue between Jews and Catholics will now be frozen to some extent, that the process of reconciliation that has advanced so much over the past 50 years will be interrupted, if not aborted."

Pope Benedict on Saturday rehabilitated four traditionalist bishops who lead the far-right Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), which has about 600,000 members and rejects modernizations of Roman Catholic worship and doctrine.

One of the four, British-born Richard Williamson, has made statements denying the full extent of the Nazi Holocaust of European Jews, as accepted by mainstream historians.

"Especially from a German pope, I would have expected more understanding and sensitivity," Graumann said. "The fact that this comes from a German pope leaves a certain taste and provokes certain feelings."

In comments to Swedish television broadcast and widely available on the Internet, Williamson has said: "I believe there were no gas chambers." He said up to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi camps, rather than the 6 million widely accepted.

Graumann said it had taken a long time and much effort to strengthen dialogue between Jewish and Catholic communities over the past decades, adding Pope Benedict's predecessor John Paul II had moved the process forward significantly.

"This dialogue is being overshadowed by what has happened," he said. "Those who rehabilitate anti-Semites are ... bringing anti-Semitism back into the church to some extent."

"It's without bad intentions but that's the actual effect," he said.

The four traditionalist bishops were thrown out of the Roman Catholic Church in 1988 for being ordained without Vatican permission. The Vatican said the excommunications were lifted after the bishops affirmed their willingness to accept Church teachings and papal authority.

(Reporting by Kerstin Gehmlich; editing by Ralph Boulton)
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:37 am

can't sit still wrote:Yes, this is copied from rense. I don't know yet if it is authentic;

Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons.

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets of our air force."

Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, pointed out that "collective deportation" was Israel's only meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people.

"The Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent."

Creveld said he was sure that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wanted to deport the Palestinians.

"I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed."

Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rogue state if it carried out a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."


Huh?

Deport Palestinians where? How?

Do you have a link to this article?
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:16 am

Never mind.
I found the entire quote:


http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=2929


Israeli professor says


"We could destroy all European capitals"

1 February, 2003 (IAP News)

An Israeli professor and military historian hinted that Israel could avenge
the Holocaust by annihilating millions of Germans and other Europeans.

Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday,
Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most
European capitals with nuclear weapons.

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them
at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals
are targets of our air force."

Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in
Jerusalem, pointed out that "collective deportation" was Israel's only
meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people.

"The Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the
Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time.
Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this
would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now,
according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent."

Creveld said he was sure that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wanted to
deport the Palestinians.

"I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate
the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed."

Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rogue state if it carried out
a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli
Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said "Israel must be like a mad dog, too
dangerous to bother."

Creveld argued that Israel wouldn't care much about becoming a rogue state.

"Our armed forces are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather
the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us.
And I can assure you that that this will happen before Israel goes under."
_______________________________________

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Tel: 708 974 3380 / Fax: 708 974 3389 /Pager: 1 800 481 4306
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:13 pm

DVD Burner wrote: Israeli professor says
"We could destroy all European capitals"
Me say knock yourself out, Martin, I've already seen Paris, not seriously planning to return.

By the way, chemists in Israel have developed a new liquid for putting out fires. They haven't actually used water in decades. It's a hydrocrabon compound. I'll try to dig up some references.

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:47 pm

And to think everyone was on my case, called me all kind of names and all when I was doing nothing more but telling the truth about Israel.

These folks in Israel are nuts.
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:28 pm

In America, Speaking the Truth Is a Career-ending Event

by Paul Craig Roberts

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"The evidence is sitting on the table. There is no avoiding the fact that this was torture."

These are the words of Manfred Nowak, the UN official appointed by the Commission on Human Rights to examine cases of torture. Nowak has concluded that President Obama is legally obligated to prosecute former President George W. Bush and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. here

If President Obama's bankster economic team finishes off what remains of the US economy, Obama, to deflect the public's attention from his own failures and Americans' growing hardships, might fulfill his responsibility to prosecute Bush and Rumsfeld. But for now the interesting question is why did the US military succumb to illegal orders?

In the December 2008 issue of CounterPunch, Alexander Cockburn, in his report on an inglorious chapter in the history of the Harvard Law School, provides the answer. Two brothers, Jonathan and David Lubell, both Harvard law students, were politically active against the Korean War. It was the McCarthy era, and the brothers were subpoenaed. They refused to cooperate on the grounds that the subpoena was a violation of the First Amendment.

Harvard Law School immediately began pressuring the students to cooperate with Congress. The other students ostracized them. Pressures from the Dean and faculty turned into threats. Although the Lubells graduated magna cum laude, they were kept off the Harvard Law Review. Their scholarships were terminated. A majority of the Harvard Law faculty voted for their expulsion (expulsion required a two-thirds vote).

Why did Harvard Law School betray two honor students who stood up for the US Constitution? Cockburn concludes that the Harvard law faculty sacrificed constitutional principle in order not to jeopardize their own self-advancement by displeasing the government (and no doubt donors).

We see such acts of personal cowardice every day. Recently we had the case of Jewish scholar and Israel critic Norman Finkelstein, whose tenure was blocked by the cowardly president of DePaul University, a man afraid to stand up for his own faculty against the Israel Lobby, which successfully imposed on a Catholic university the principle that no critic of Israel can gain academic tenure.

The same calculation of self-interest causes American journalists to serve as shills for Israeli and US government propaganda and the US Congress to endorse Israeli war crimes that the rest of the world condemns.

When US military officers saw that torture was a policy coming down from the top, they knew that doing the right thing would cost them their careers. They trimmed their sails. One who did not was Major General Antonio Taguba. Instead of covering up the Abu Ghraib prison torture scandal, General Taguba wrote an honest report that terminated his career.

Despite legislation that protects whistleblowers, it is always the whistleblower, not the wrongdoer, who suffers. When it finally became public that the Bush regime was committing felonies under US law by using the NSA to spy on Americans, the Justice (sic) Department went after the whistleblower. Nothing was done about the felonies.

Yet Bush and the Justice (sic) Department continued to assert that "we are a nation of law."

The Bush regime was a lawless regime. This makes it difficult for the Obama regime to be a lawful one. A torture inquiry would lead naturally into a war crimes inquiry. General Taguba said that the Bush regime committed war crimes. President Obama was a war criminal by his third day in office when he ordered illegal cross-border drone attacks on Pakistan that murdered 20 people, including 3 children. The bombing and strafing of homes and villages in Afghanistan by US forces and America's NATO puppets are also war crimes. Obama cannot enforce the law, because he himself has already violated it.

For decades the US government has taken the position that Israel's territorial expansion is not constrained by any international law. The US government is complicit in Israel's war crimes in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank.

The entire world knows that Israel is guilty of war crimes and that the US government made the crimes possible by providing the weapons and diplomatic support. What Israel and the US did in Lebanon and Gaza is no different from crimes for which Nazis were tried at Nuremberg. Israel understands this, and the Israeli government is currently preparing its defense, which will be led by Israeli Justice (sic) Minister Daniel Friedman. UN war crimes official Richard Falk has compared Israel's massacre of Gazans to the Nazi starvation and massacre of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Amnesty International and the Red Cross have demanded Israel be held accountable for war crimes. Even eight Israeli human rights groups have called for an investigation into Israel's war crimes.

Obama's order to close Guantanamo Prison means very little. Essentially, Obama's order is a public relations event. The tribunal process had already been shut down by US courts and by military lawyers, who refused to prosecute the fabricated cases. The vast majority of the prisoners were hapless individuals captured by Afghan warlords and sold for money to the stupid Americans as "terrorists." Most of the prisoners, people the Bush regime told us were "the most dangerous people alive," have already been released.

Obama's order said nothing about closing the CIA's secret prisons or halting the illegal practice of rendition in which the CIA kidnaps people and sends them to third world countries, such as Egypt, to be tortured.

Obama would have to take risks that opportunistic politicians never take in order for the US to become a nation of law instead of a nation in which the agendas of special interests override the law.

Truth cannot be spoken in America. It cannot be spoken in universities. It cannot be spoken in the media. It cannot be spoken in courts, which is why defendants and defense attorneys have given up on trials and cop pleas to lesser offenses that never occurred.


Truth is never spoken by government. As Jonathan Turley said recently, Washington "is where principles go to die."
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:05 pm

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:11 pm

Wait, is that for me or Israel? :P
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:47 pm

I don't know if anyone is interested but Riz khan just interviewed Stephen Hawking on Gaza and he does not agree with Obama.
Soon as it's finished I'll post the interview.
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