israel, judaism, jews and zionism

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:39 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
jkisha wrote:I sort of lump them all together. I have never experienced, nor searched for, nor missed 'spirituality'; so I'm pretty sure it has to rank right up there with religion--the mind can be fooled into thinking/believing lots of things that aren't true. I guess the closest I've come to a spiritual experience would be getting high on just the right mix of drugs--what folly for me to then believe this was anything more than an enjoyable trick of the mind albiet brought on by drugs (in my particular case)

JK
The definition of "spiritualism" is to believe that you have a spiritual nature (without drugs). If you don't beleive that, then I guess you're not really a spiritual person.
It's all "Shortcuts to Enlightenment".
I've written about this years ago in 1992.


[youtube][/youtube]

It rang true then and rings true now and always will.
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Post by Elderberry » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:40 pm

[quote="can't sit still"][quote="diane o'thirst"][quote="can't sit still"]The Talmud, as quoted by Dr. Funk, says, “God foresaw that one day a time would come when the Heathen would possess themselves of the Torah and would say to Israel, ‘We, too, are sons of God.’ Then will the Lord say: ‘Only he who knows my secrets is my son.’ And what are the secrets of God? The oral teachings.â€
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Post by Elderberry » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:48 pm

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:I sort of lump them all together. I have never experienced, nor searched for, nor missed 'spirituality'; so I'm pretty sure it has to rank right up there with religion--the mind can be fooled into thinking/believing lots of things that aren't true. I guess the closest I've come to a spiritual experience would be getting high on just the right mix of drugs--what folly for me to then believe this was anything more than an enjoyable trick of the mind albiet brought on by drugs (in my particular case)

JK
are you then, speaking of your experience, and, your beliefs, and, perspectives, or, are you saying religion, spirituality, etc, are universally unacceptable, if not non-existent, or, should be, to the populace in general?

We disagree on that, perhaps, but, I don't want to discuss it unless I understand what you're saying.........clarity, as such.

As with so much of the universe, it is only what we perceive it to be, within ourselves.
We may find agreement with others, but, we have no proof except that which we accept as true, and, believe.

.......IMHO..........
I am always speaking from my own personal experiences, beliefs and perspectives. What else do I have?

And to give a personal example of my disdain for religion/spirituality I give you this: http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight= and there was another one which I can't seem to find now that took place somewhere in Africa I believe, where the authorities arrested a goat because they believed the perpetrator of the crime had turned himself into the goat to escape. I think they are actually going to prosecute the goat. Just found the link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482506,00.html

To me, that is the same as Christianity, Islam or Judaism--all ridiculous myths that people choose to believe to help ease the pain they feel from living life.

JK
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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:49 pm

jkisha wrote:
In his defense, he was probably just talking out of his ass. I know, because I do it myself all the time!

JK
:shock:
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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:01 pm

Cash crisis threat to Auschwitz

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7800397.stm

By Raffi Berg
BBC News, Auschwitz-Birkenau

It is a bitterly cold winter's day at one of the most notorious and harrowing places on Earth. Patches of ice crunch underfoot with every step, punctuating the silence which has long pervaded this former killing field.

This is Birkenau, the largest camp in the Auschwitz complex, where most of its 1.1 million victims - 90% of them Jews - were murdered.


But after nearly seven decades exposed to the elements, few of what were originally hundreds of structures remain standing, and those which have survived are gradually rotting away.

Unlike the smaller Auschwitz I - sturdy brick-built former Polish cavalry barracks expropriated by the Nazis - Birkenau (or Auschwitz II) - was erected in 1941 solely as a death camp, and was not built to last.

With every passing year the urgency to preserve what is left of the site grows, and while steps are being taken to do so, crucial conservation work is hampered by a shortage of funds.

"Auschwitz Museum is in a financial crisis, that's for sure," says site spokesman Pawel Sawicki.

"We do not have sufficient money to develop a long-term conservation plan. We can only be reactive, say if there's damage to a building we repair it - we can't be proactive," he says.

"And if we can't secure the buildings and conserve the site properly, we will be forced to close it to the public in a few years."

Preservation task

In some ways the process has already begun.

Two-thirds of the original brick barracks where prisoners lived in Birkenau have already been deemed unsafe and closed to the public. Since 2006 the fragile ruins of the gas chambers - blown up by the Nazis before the camp was abandoned in 1945 - have been cordoned off from visitors, their remaining walls in danger of collapse.

Some conservation is under way. In Auschwitz I, in a building once earmarked by the Nazis as a registration block for prisoners, teams of technicians in white coats are at work, preserving thousands of artefacts and developing methods to try to save the camp's disintegrating infrastructure.

The conservation laboratory - one of the best of its kind in the world - was established in 2002 at a cost of $3m, a project of US philanthropist Ronald S Lauder.

In one room, a large scanner hums away, copying records, yellowing with age, from the camp's SS Hygiene Institute, whilst across the corridor, scientists delicately clean some of the thousands of the institute's documents by hand.

Funded by the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia, it is one of a number of conservation programmes at the museum which depend on the benevolence of foreign countries or organisations.

"The biggest problem is the scale of the task," says chief conservationist Rafal Pioro.

As well as the documents and artefacts held at the camp - a museum since 1947 - there are more than 300 ruins, 155 buildings and 191 hectares of land.

"We don't have sufficient money to carry out all the work that we would like to," says chief conservationist Rafal Pioro.

"And people should understand that we are not able to stop the process of deterioration - all we are able to do is to slow it down."

There are some remains which no amount of funding can save.

On the second floor of exhibition block number four is one of the more shocking displays - two tons of victims' hair, used by the Nazis for the textile industry, piled high and stretching from one end of the room to the other.

It is one of the most tangible pieces of evidence of what went on here, but now brittle and fading after so many years, the conservation experts acknowledge it will soon all turn to dust.

Financial shortfall

While the camp gradually erodes, more people than ever are visiting the site and placing it under increasing physical strain.

In 2008, 1.13 million people came here from around the world, vastly more than the museum - whose main exhibition remains largely unaltered from the mid-1950s - was built to cope with.

The visitors, however, generate little revenue. The museum is not allowed to charge an entrance fee, and its income from guided tours, book sales and parking does not go far. Since 1947, when the museum opened, the Polish government has provided most of the museum's funding.

In spite of Auschwitz's inclusion on Unesco's World Heritage list in 1979, it was not until the 1990s that financial assistance first trickled in from the outside world.

Even so, foreign help still constitutes only 1-3% of the museum's annual $10m budget - barely enough to cover day-to-day operations, including paying the museum's 250 staff, let alone conservation work.

This falls far short of the $100m the museum says it needs to carry out vital tasks, such as preserving crumbling barracks, creating a new exhibition and building specialised storage facilities.

"The international community has not done enough," said 92-year-old Holocaust survivor and treasurer of the Auschwitz Museum budget committee, Kalman Sultanik.

"Germany in particular has not done enough. Whatever Germany does is not enough - not for the survivors, definitely not for Auschwitz."

Rescue plan

In the hope of saving the museum for future generations, officials want to set up a 120m-euro ($170m) endowment fund with the help of the international community, the profits from which would be used entirely for long-term conservation work.

"The Polish government has been funding the site of Auschwitz and Birkenau for more than 60 years, so if we wouldn't receive any help from Polish government this place would have collapsed years ago," said Mr Sawicki.

"Unfortunately Poland is not a very rich country, and Auschwitz is not the only site the Polish government must take care of. That's why we expect countries like Germany - which of course is responsible for what happened here - despite the help that they've already given - we still think that the scale of the help should be bigger."

Earlier this month, Germany said it considered it a "core duty… to keep the memory of the Holocaust alive", adding it was in discussions with Poland about making future contributions to the upkeep of the museum.

European heritage

In 1947, the Polish parliament passed a law pledging to preserve Auschwitz and its buildings forever.

Despite this, Poland says it does not regard Auschwitz as its exclusive responsibility.

"The Holocaust became an integral part of what we now call the cultural heritage of European civilisation," the Ministry of Culture and National Heritage told the BBC. "Every nation has an inalienable duty to protect these places".

But time is running short, and unless substantially more money comes soon, Poland's pledge to preserve the camp may prove hard to keep.
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Post by Box Burner » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:24 pm

jkisha wrote: And to give a personal example of my disdain for religion/spirituality I give you this: http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

JK


Anyone who has to tell you how spiritual they are most certainly is not. they are either outright lying or seriously confused. How religious they are is another story, Since it is possible to religiously go to the toilet every morning also and most people (both good and bad) do. Religion is not spirituality.
jkisha wrote: and there was another one which I can't seem to find now that took place somewhere in Africa I believe, where the authorities arrested a goat because they believed the perpetrator of the crime had turned himself into the goat to escape. I think they are actually going to prosecute the goat. Just found the link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482506,00.html

To me, that is the same as Christianity, Islam or Judaism--all ridiculous myths that people choose to believe to help ease the pain they feel from living life.

JK



Religion is just a tool. And like any other tool it sometimes gets misused and abused, And often the people wielding this tool haven't got a clue how to use it or what it's for.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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Post by Elderberry » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:01 am

Box Burner wrote: Religion is just a tool. And like any other tool it sometimes gets misused and abused, And often the people wielding this tool haven't got a clue how to use it or what it's for.
Yes, it is a tool, invented by man just like any other tool; this one is designed to either console or control, depending on who is using it and their objective. (But this is just my humble opion, I feel from what you did not say, that we are not of the same opinion on this issue.)

JK
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Post by can't sit still » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:53 am

I believe that religion can be a good framework for teaching a moral code to our children. Sincewestern religion deals in truckloads of guilt, I don't believe that it is worthwhile. The christians are taught that they come into this world with "Original Sin" If you're a believer, you're hooked for life. It's all a crock of crap that doesn't stand up to logical or rational examination.
The Eastern religions are far less guilt and profit oriented. Buddhists and Jains and druids and many of the early [pagan] religions concentrate on their core beliefs,,, not on power.
As long as religion is focused on power, it can't very well serve the needs of man. I don't see western religion ever changing it's focus from power to spirituality.

When we were multitheistic, there was more freedom to chose the gods that appealed to one's life. Now, that we've narrowed down the field to just a few main religions, they war incessantly for domination. How does one go about teaching a moral code when there aren't any goddesses left?
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by ygmir » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:01 am

can't sit still wrote:I believe that religion can be a good framework for teaching a moral code to our children. Sincewestern religion deals in truckloads of guilt, I don't believe that it is worthwhile. The christians are taught that they come into this world with "Original Sin" If you're a believer, you're hooked for life. It's all a crock of crap that doesn't stand up to logical or rational examination.
The Eastern religions are far less guilt and profit oriented. Buddhists and Jains and druids and many of the early [pagan] religions concentrate on their core beliefs,,, not on power.
As long as religion is focused on power, it can't very well serve the needs of man. I don't see western religion ever changing it's focus from power to spirituality.

When we were multitheistic, there was more freedom to chose the gods that appealed to one's life. Now, that we've narrowed down the field to just a few main religions, they war incessantly for domination. How does one go about teaching a moral code when there aren't any goddesses left?


I agree.........
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:08 pm

Hamas to pay victims of Gaza war

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 81696.html

Hamas is set to hand out money to Gazans afflicted by Israel's offensive on the Gaza Strip.

The territory's government was due to start giving out the money, expected to total about $45m, on Sunday - a day after a Hamas committee was established to oversee relief efforts.

Ahmed al-Kurd, the Hamas-appointed minister of social affairs, also heads the National High Committee for Relief which will distribute the money to those who lost family members or their homes.

"It will be the only body to oversee and supervise the rescue. We will be in contact with all other bodies, whether local, national or international, to organise the relief," al-Kurd said.

Re-building Gaza

Al-Kurd did not say how Hamas had raised the funds for the Strip, which has been under a strict blockade since the group took control of Gaza in June 2007.

"We are a government that is in charge of all of Gaza," he said. "The ministries have budgets, they have funds, just like in the rest of the countries of the world."

Taher al-Nunu, a spokesman for Gaza's de facto government, said that Hamas would grant €1,000 ($1,300) for the family of each "martyr" killed in the three-week-long conflict earlier in the month and €500 ($650) to for each one of those injured.

He also said that Hamas would pay €4,000 ($5,200) for each family whose house has been completely demolished.

He said that more than 20,000 Palestinian houses have been either completely demolished or partially damaged during the war.

More than 1,330 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli offensive, which Israel says was aimed at stemming rocket and mortar fire from Gaza.

Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians were also killed.

'Death by blockade'

Both sides declared unilateral ceasefires last Sunday and Israel completed its withdrawal from the territory on Wednesday.

Al-Kurd would not specify the role the relief committee would play in rebuilding efforts in the battered territory, but demanded the lifting of Israel's blockade of the Strip and the reopening of Gaza's border crossings.

"From now on we will not accept a slow death by blockade. We sacrificed in this war ... and we did not sacrifice our youth to return to square one."

The Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has said that it should lead the reconstruction efforts, which it said would require about $1.9bn in aid.

Abbas's Fatah group were pushed from Gaza in June 2007 when Hamas took control of the Strip.
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Post by can't sit still » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:47 pm

So,,, Abbas wants $ 1.9 billion. Arafat played football with the Palestinians. Now Abbas wants to do the same. Hamas orchestrated the conflict to get the most casualties, PR and control. Apparently hamas is willing to sacrifice palestinian lives now to stop the slow ongoing strangulation. War is hell!! The palestinians have finally learned that PR is everything. I told them many years ago that they didn't have a chance as long as their story never came to light.
Several years ago, the Arab League opened an Arab Anti Defamation office in North Hollywood, California. After 2 weeks, it was bombed. War for minds and hearts.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:59 am

Jimmy Carter Interview from yesterday Part 1.
[youtube][/youtube]


Part2.
[youtube][/youtube]

Carter says Hamas must be included



Jimmy Carter, the former US president, has said any future permanent Israeli-Palestinian agreement has to include Hamas, the Palestinian movement that controls the Gaza Strip.

Carter also told Al Jazeera's Riz Khan on Wednesday that US presidents were unable or unwilling to take on Israel's supporters in the US, but said he had high hopes for George Mitchell, the new US Middle East envoy.

The former US leader said there was "no way to have a permanent peace in the Middle East without the inclusion of Hamas".

"Hamas has got to be involved before peace can be concluded."

Carter said reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah, the faction led by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, had been "objected to and obstructed by the US and Israel".

He hoped the new Obama administration would work to bring the Palestinian factions together.

The US government has branded Hamas as a terrorist group and Barack Obama, the new US president, has reiterated international demands that it recognise Israel, renounce violence and recognise previous peace agreements before it can sit at the negotiating table.

Abbas sacked a unity government led by Hamas in 2007, leading to Hamas's takeover of the Gaza Strip, while Abbas' Palestinian Authority remained in charge of the West Bank.

Carter also said Hamas had mainly kept to its truce agreement not to attack Israel.

The truce ended last December and was followed by a massive 22-day Israeli assault on Gaza that left more than 1,300 Palestinians dead.

Israel says the operation was necessary to stop Palestinian fighters firing rockets into southern Israel.

Mitchell praise

Carter said that US presidents had officially backed UN resolutions calling on Israel to end its occupation of Palestinian land, but that they had been unwilling to take on Israel's political allies.

"The fact is that very few of the presidents have been willing to confront Israel's forces in the United States, politically speaking," Carter said in what appeared to be a reference to the powerful Israeli lobby.

Carter, a Democrat who was president from 1976 until 1980, praised Obama for signalling deeper US involvement in the quest for Middle East peace by appointing Mitchell.

"If you look at US Middle East envoys in the past, almost all of them have been closely associated with Israel, sometimes even working professionally for Israel. George Mitchell is a balanced and honest broker compared to the others."

Mitchell, a former senator, has held talks in Israel and Egypt during his first tour of the region aimed at promoting what he said would be a bid for "lasting peace" between Israel and the Palestinians.

He had served as special envoy to Northern Ireland during the Clinton administration and brokered the landmark Good Friday accord in 1998 that ended decades of bloody violence in the conflict.
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:00 am

Tom Friedman and the Five State Solution for Israel http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/opini ... edman.html

JK
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Post by littleflower » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:23 am

sounds like a great idea ... but how do egypt and saudi arabia feel about it? i don't think egypt wants to deal with hamas, and i don't think that the saudis are terribly generous with their money...

there are iran and hezbollah to deal with, as well...

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Post by thesenator » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:34 am

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:43 am

These are articles about the Catholic Church and the Pope and the Holocost, but somehow I thought they might belong in this thread.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews ... 1220090128

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world ... ss&emc=rss


JK
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:51 am

Too often superstition masquerades as spirituality and calls itself religion. All hail the FSM!

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:51 am

rense.com is for suckers.....
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:58 am

thesenator wrote:I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

Uummmmm, kinda been posted in this and other threads before, but nice you found out anyway.


jkisha wrote:These are articles about the Catholic Church and the Pope and the Holocost, but somehow I thought they might belong in this thread.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews ... 1220090128

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world ... ss&emc=rss


JK

Been posted in this thread by me already but you wouldn't know. You dont read what I post. :lol:

Damn I love that plonker.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:12 pm

This was intense to watch.

Image

Erdogan Clashes With Peres, Storms Out of Davos Panel

(Update1)Last Updated: January 29, 2009 15:16 EST


By Calev Ben-David and Matthew Benjamin

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Jan. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan walked out of a panel discussion in protest after clashing with Israeli President Shimon Peres at the World Economic Forum over Israel’s operation in the Gaza Strip.

Erdogan, 54, was attempting to respond to Peres’s defense of the military actions after the session had run over its scheduled time and the moderator tried to cut him off. Erdogan, who protested that he was being given less time than Peres, said he would not return to Davos and quickly left the stage.

Erdogan had accused Israel of not respecting the democratic rights of the Palestinians and of using excessive force during its 22-day offensive against Hamas in Gaza that concluded on Jan. 18. Peres, 85, responded that Israel was only trying to defend itself, and accused Hamas of being a “cruel, dictatorial regime.â€
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:17 pm

By the looks of everyone's face in that audience, Israel will look like shit forever.

Now Israel has to face the ICC. :?
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:33 pm

This is by far a more accurate description.



Stormy debate in Davos over Gaza




The Turkish prime minister has stormed out of a heated debate at the World Economic Forum in Davos over Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan walked out of the televised debate on Thursday, after the moderator refused to allow him to rebut the Israeli president's justification about the war that left about 1,300 Gazans dead.

Before storming out, Erdogan told Shimon Peres, the Israeli president: "You are killing people."

Peres told Erdogan during the heated panel discussion that he would have acted in the same manner if rockets had been falling on Istanbul.

Moderator David Ignatius, a Washington Post columnist, then told Erdogan that he had "only a minute" to respond to a lengthy monologue by Peres.

Erdogan said: "I find it very sad that people applaud what you said. There have been many people killed. And I think that it is very wrong and it is not humanitarian."

Ignatius twice attempted to finish the debate, saying, "We really do need to get people to dinner."

Erdogan then said: "Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don't think I will come back to Davos after this."

'Understandable'

Amr Moussa, the secretary-general of the Arab League and former Egyptian foreign minister, said Erdogan's action was understandable.

He said: "Mr Erdogan said what he wanted to say and then he left. That's all. He was right," adding that Israel "doesn't listen".

The exchange took place on the second day of the summit, where business and political leaders have been discussing trade, financial regulation and global security.

After grappling with a bleak global economy on the opening day, leaders attending the forum switched to debates on the new administration in the United States and unrest in the Middle East, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Kamal Nath, India's trade minister, warned that the global economic crisis could fuel protectionism to safeguard national industries and jobs.

Ban Ki-moon, the United Nations secretary-general, used the forum to announce the launch of an emergency appeal for $613m to help Palestinians recover from Israel's attack on Gaza.

Protectionist fears

Nath said that India saw growing signs of protectionism and would respond with its own measures if its exporters were threatened "which will be good for no one."

He said: "We do fear this because one must recognise that at the heart of globalisation lies global competitiveness, and if governments are going to protect their non-competitive production facilities it's not going to be fair trade.

India has raised tariffs on steel to protect local producers, a measure trade experts say was aimed at China, which India does not regard as a market economy.

The deepening economic crisis, and the failure to complete the World Trade Organisation's long-running Doha round on freeing up global commerce, have raised fears that countries will block their partners' exports to protect jobs at home.

Such protectionism, if it led to tit-for-tat retaliation, would intensify the current crisis.

Emerging economies

The economies of India, China and Russia, which have been experiencing rapid growth in recent years, have taken precedence at the forum.


Timothy Garton Ash, professor of European studies at Oxford University, said emerging markets are almost overshadowing the importance of the US economy.

"What is really striking to me about this Davos, is the lack of a sense of a new beginning with Barack Obama," he told Al Jazeera.

"That is not what we've been hearing about in the last 24 hours, we've been hearing about China, about Russia, about India, about emerging economies, and that I think is a very significant fact.

"It's not just the American investment banks that have gone down, it's America's own soft power, and ability to lead that has been badly damaged by the crash."

Rachid Mohamed Rachid, Egypt's minister of trade and industry, said there would be a rush towards emerging markets.

"People understand today that there will not be growth in developed countries for a long time to come, the growth will continue to be in emerging markets, even more than before," he told Al Jazeera.

Gaza appeal

The UN secretary-general said he had been deeply moved by his visit to Gaza and that he had given his word that the UN would help the Gazans in their hour of need.

He said the appeal for fund covered the requirements of the UN and other aid organisations for the next six to nine months.

Ban said it would help provide aid such as medical care and clean water and that an appeal for longer-term needs would be launched later.

Asked about achieving peace in Gaza, Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of Israel's Likud party who was attending the forum, swiftly turned his answer to Iran, which he said was in a "100-yard dash" to get nuclear weapons.

While he did not specify any planned military action, Netanyahu said if Iranian rulers were "neutralised", the danger posed to Israel and others by Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in south Lebanon would be reduced.

Netanyahu said the global financial meltdown was reversible but "what is not reversible is the acquisition of nuclear weapons by a fanatic radical regime".

Meanwhile, Manouchechr Mottaki, Iran's foreign minister, who is also in Davos, said Tehran had taken note of the intention of Barack Obama, the US president, to withdraw troops from Iraq and believed he should also pull troops out of Afghanistan.

Mottaki told a panel at the forum that Obama had "courage" to say which of the policies of George Bush, the former US president, he disagreed with and said his approach marked a "milestone" away from an era of "might equals right".
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Post by Box Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:40 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Too often superstition masquerades as spirituality and calls itself religion. All hail the FSM!
You got that right!
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Much of the death in Palestine is a result of a popularity contest between Livni and Netanyahu. For the coming elections, Livni wants to portray herself as being equally bloodthirsty as Netanyahu. Netanyahu is the undisputed king of bloodlust. I had high hopes for Livni's coalition in the beginning. Just like Puitin, she is from the intelligence services rather than from the army. I guess that it was not to be. :cry:

The article mentions that Peres delivered a long monologue until time was almost run out. How very subtle and diplomatic :x

I read the story on the 5 state plan. The plan calls fro the US to be the final moderator. You can toss that idea into the shitcan. The rest of the plan sounds workable. Only problem is that the israeli settlers won't agree to go along with the GOV. The settlers will battle the IDF and tear apart the country.

The prime minister of Turkey is in a unique position to judge the actions of the israelis. Turkey is a muslim country where the electorate elects a religious leader every now and then. Ghamel Attaturk made it very clear that Turkey MUST have a secular Government if it were to survive. When the electorate elects a religious leader, the military boots his ass out and, after a period, they call new elections for a secular leader.

Erdogan is well acquainted with the excesses of religious leaders. When Ghamel Attaturk came to power, he called an enormous convocation of all the religious leaders. He got them all together in a huge stadium and had them all killed. Worked like a charm. Now, the Immans stick to religion and avoid politics. It's just the solution that iran needs. :wink:
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:42 pm

Hey CSS, are you still having trouble playing youtube in umbuntu?

I found this link if you are: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=664242
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:03 pm

can't sit still wrote:. The settlers will battle the IDF and tear apart the country.
The Israeli settlers are the biggest part of Israel's problem. They should be dragged out kicking and screaming if necessary and shot if they try to return. (Or at least jailed.)

JK
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Post by ygmir » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:05 pm

jkisha wrote:
can't sit still wrote:. The settlers will battle the IDF and tear apart the country.
The Israeli settlers are the biggest part of Israel's problem. They should be dragged out kicking and screaming if necessary and shot if they try to return. (Or at least jailed.)

JK

but, don't waterboard anyone...........
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:18 pm

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:
can't sit still wrote:. The settlers will battle the IDF and tear apart the country.
The Israeli settlers are the biggest part of Israel's problem. They should be dragged out kicking and screaming if necessary and shot if they try to return. (Or at least jailed.)

JK

but, don't waterboard anyone...........
LOL Hey, I said jailed. But it wouldn't be us doint the "waterboarding"; those people are defying their own government and it would be up do Israel to decide how to handle their own people.

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Post by ygmir » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:37 pm

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote: The Israeli settlers are the biggest part of Israel's problem. They should be dragged out kicking and screaming if necessary and shot if they try to return. (Or at least jailed.)

JK

but, don't waterboard anyone...........
LOL Hey, I said jailed. But it wouldn't be us doint the "waterboarding"; those people are defying their own government and it would be up do Israel to decide how to handle their own people.


JK
haha, you also said "shot"............

and, how is it ok to "waterboard" (or whatever method of torture you select)?.........
are you saying it's ok to "torture" as long as it's not us?

Maybe we can farm out torture to other nations, so "we" aren't doing it?
(oh yeah, I think we've done that.......)

seems it's either ok, or, not...........and, if a person judges one harshly for 'mistreatment', to be fair, they should judge all...........

IMHO.......
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:25 pm

I suppose that I should put in my 2 cents. I'm opposed to both torture and shooting. Jerusalem is a special case. Other than that, dirt is just dirt [unless it has DU] Keep Jerusalem as 4 quarters owned by the respective groups. Move the jewish settlers to equal dirt. If you go to you-tube, there is a song from the movie, Fiddler on the Roof. The song is 'Anatevka" It's the story about the jews being forced to leave their home town of Anatevka. In song, they minimalise what they are leaving behind. It;s touching.

The problem is that israel is going into recession. Even with the money squeezed from America, they're going broke. They spend way too much on the military. They don't have the money to build replacement settlements for everyone. Sad,,, all the way around.
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