Immigration, good or bad

[ygmir]

that'd be tough........since, if someone is born here they're, by by definition, American.
Now, send the parents home, and, if they want to take the kid.....they can, of course, but, don't grant them citizenship,.......

or, is that what you mean?

But now your denying a fundemental right that a United States Citizen has of being born in the US, and that is the rights and freedoms that come with being born here.

To deport the parents, and give them the choice of leaving or taking the resident child is not a choice at all - all it does now is exile a US citizen, The very definition of a Hobsons choice.

ergo my "tough" preface.........
difficult decision how, if at all, to do it........
not sure where to go with that.......

oh yeah, did I say tough?......
IMHO, that is.....

[mdmf007]

Not all countries give automatic citizenship to someone born within their borders.

....... they don't have much education or native talent. They could never qualify for an H-1 visa......

...... We recently took in 7,000 Somalis who had spent their entire lives in a refugee camp. I don't see them as a valuable addition.......

Not all countries do - But this one does. There are very few exceptions to not being granted citizenship if born on US soil in the constitution.

H1 visas are not based on education alone - there are skilled persons brought on H1 and H2 visas to perform Skilled tasks - how do you think Casinos get workers from abroad? Wildland firefighting companies can do it, and any other industry that requires experience over education.

Those 7000 would be political refugees - people that face genocide or persecution based on some type of difference from the masses - religion, tribe, skin, sex, etc. Even if they contribute nothing to our society these refugees not immigrants need asylum somewhere or face rape, death torture, etc.

[can't sit still]

007, it's a tough world. Just because someone has big problems is no reason to bring them here. Look what the Mariel boatlift did. Castro emptied out his prisons and mental institutions. There are 100 million children living on the streets worldwide. Several hundred million more are being persecuted for one reason or another. Then, there are places like Bangladesh and the Philippines. What do you do with cultures and peoples that do unrestrained reproduction?
The US is going down fast. We can't just round up everybody who has a problem and bring them here. The social net here is in the process of disintegrating.
"The seed that falls on stony ground shall wither and die" It's that simple.

[mdmf007]

007, it's a tough world. Just because someone has big problems is no reason to bring them here.....

Whoa - back up the immigration bus. I never said bring everyone here, in fact I would love to see automated guns anhiliating anything that crosses the border illegally or tries to cross illegally.

I was simply pointing out the fact that deporting the illegals that are already here isnt as clear cut as sending them packing; and has repercussions that are negative on our economy as well. These bad consequences outweigh the good obviously, or the USG, or Californian, Arizonaian, New Mexican, or Texas state government would have already booted them.

The amount of refugees we grant asylum too is incredibly small. A true drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. As a country we have a responsibility to offer aid and shelter - but no more than any other civillized country should. the U.K. Canada, Australia, Germany, France, Spain, and on and on and on. All share that same responsibility.

So to be clear of where i stand. Short of isolationism I believe a solid country starts with solid borders and clear cut paths to legal immigration. The illegals here illegaly must be dealt with by a combination of deportation, granting citizenship or long term permanen resident status - without citizenship. make them pay taxes, register, get licenses, live a legal life in america and not some underground existence on another plane.

The US is going down fast, but no faster than any other country. the UK and Canada have their own problems and different ones as well. The US enjoys some of the highest standards of living in the world, good education, great healthcare despite what some say, and are amongst the longest living peoples in history. Could it be improved? of course.

We are not at that utopian Star Trekish society yet, where global borders are a line on a map with no real meaning. Where all peoples live happy and have no wants.

Some cups are half full, some are half empty. When given the choice, I prefer to believe in the good in a person, but am not niave to the bad either. I have seen my share of death - enough for many lifetimes, and am thankful to simply be alive where I am not persecuted or live in fear of my governemnt every moment. I have seen squalor and it makes me appreciate my home and job and family and country that much more.

Unrestrained reproduction is a problem, but a cultural one. Your right it makes no sense for a peopels that cannot already feed themselves to bring more family in to the equation. But what do you do? There are education programs, ad campaigns, but short of forced sterilization or birth control in the water type of plans there is little else you can do thats ethical.

Africa is a nation of children - more than half of the peoples there are under the age of 18. There will be a famine of monumental proportions that culls off hundreds of millions in the near future there. This will alleviate some of the problem. baby boomers will also start dropping off in droves this will lower the U.S. population at about the same time. Simple math. Not everyone lives forever.

I am starting to sound like a Dr. Bonners soap bottle here in the rambling sense, so i am out. The first 4 paragraphs are all that matter in this post - the rest is a run on rant.

later

[cowboyangel]

"Latinos-Remaking America"
by, Marcelo M. Suarez-Oroszco and Mariela M. Paez

A collection of scholarly studies on immigration, stereotypes and common misconceptions about Latino immigration to America and Latinos living and working here. This thread can use this.

I post again. Opinion is crap. Science is better. Some here need to read for Christ's sake.

[RodanCX]

Alright, lets see...

I'm hispanic, an immigrant from mexico who moved to the USA about 3 years ago cause mexico was just way too conservative for me, also the fact that i'm gay haha.

So.. i'm just gonna write my point of view from these 3 years i've been residing in portland, OR.

Yes, most hispanics don't feel like the USA is their home, why?, it's mostly racism. Then again, portland is close to 90% white population, i think, i just went to an AMR(american medical response) corp party, and the only non white people were about 5-7?. i could be biased because of this but i've been to california 2 times and i really hated it (i didn't come to the USA to be in another mexico, really) . South california thats it, i haven't really been to north california other than on the way to burning man.

And well, i do understand all the hate towards latinos, i kinda do the same too, i was born and given a good education in a private school until i turned 18 and moved here, but it really blows me away the fact that people refuse to learn english. Or mingle with the society itself.
I can't really imagine the reasons behind this, even if its racism or hate towards americans, its really stupid. It's not like its a waste of time since there are lots of other countries that also speak english.

Anyways, on the "illegals use all our tax dollars bandwagon":
-No, Far as i know you got to be a citizen or have a green card to have anything such as welfare or food stamps of any kind
-Immigrants, illegal or not, pay taxes no matter what.
-On taxes, its mostly them who are paying for the war that's been going on for years or the social security that older people are getting when they retire:
Why?, because they can never claim any taxes that are taken from them.
-IMPORTANT: You can not immigrate to the USA legally unless you have quite a lot of money and/or a really good school degree, which is the reason why its mostly people are here illegally. So there's no way for all those people that come here starving for jobs to become legal unless they marry a citizen.
-Hmm, im not sure what else to say, but, if you guys have questions i might be able to elaborate.


Also, i'm not defending illegal immigration, i'm just giving in my own opinion about it, what i've seen happen to people i've known, and trying to clear up a little on the "durrr they tak our jorbss" thing.

Also, my own experiences are biased, and i cant really give out a complete opinion about what hispanics feel because of my physical appearance.
i don't look hispanic and people almost always think i'm european because of my accent, or american because of the way i dress, act and look. Also all my friends and my boyfriend are white gay liberal hippies lol.
But this is also something that lets me see beyond common perception, people treat hispanics like crap pretty often ( or non white for that matters), portland's cops have a pretty known aspect of racial profiling and quite a bit of people itself. i've have experienced quite a bit of times when people talk shit about hispanics around me but they never realize because i don't look like one until i tell them that what they said makes me really sick to my stomach.

But you know, the worst is to see people treat other races like shit and when i talk to the same person, they act all nice and make the typical conversation ( how's it going, great weather isn't it? blah blah blah), it really sucks thinking about the fact that people would just not talk to me or treat me like shit just because of my skin color.

Also it really made me pretty sad when the only other hispanic person i saw at burning man this last year( my first year, my bf's 5th year) was the people cleaning the porta potties .

Anyways, this is a really long post already so... peace.

PS. On the original post, yeah, there's a reason why latinos are the only people that can get jobs in rural oregon, my boyfriend is from praerie city somewhere in the middle of oregon, and i've been to central and eastern oregon quite a bit when we go hiking and camping.
yup, latinos get the jobs as you said because most people there can't pass a drug test because they are too busy doing meth.
I don't want to stereotype or anything, but that's what i've seen and its pretty gross.

[RedheadBarbie]

Racism is everywhere. In Texas there are a few cities I frequent that are over 80% Mexican immigrants. I went the other day to Church's and the lady was all chatty with 6 other sets of customers, only one she knew, and treated me like I was poo on the bottom of her shoe. It happens constantly. And after how am I supposed to hire them to work in my business so they selectively piss off customers?

I would like to see something done though a frickin' fence isn't going to do anything. Mostly because I'm sick of getting stuck behind them doing 20 under the speed limit because they don't want to get busted. OOOOhh, then my car insurance wouldn't be DOUBLE what it is in a northern state since I get to pay for all the uninsured motorists.

Seriously, both our governments are at fault, Mexico for running it's people out, to cross a desert and die, and ours because it's so convenient to have that $3/hour labor.

[can't sit still]

There is plenty of fault to go around. The catholic church tells the Latinos to have all the children that god gives them. GOV doesn't try to do much about the birth rate. Short-sighted idiots don't think about resource problems down the road. Mexico has been cursed with a 1 party system for many years. PRI's hold has finally been broken but, it hasn't been much of an improvement. Now, Mexico is losing half of it's income and there isn't any possibility of feeding all it's people.

The Latinos are naturally racist. It's not a big deal,, they just prefer to be around other latinos. I can't fault them for it. The problem comes in , in the work place. They always want you to hire their brothers or cousins, etc. We've got about 40 Latinos working here. Naturally, the Guatemalans don't like the Salvadorians and the Mexicans don't like either.

There is an oriental girl in the office and she wants the boss to give her 20 y. o. son a job. He had to tell her that the latinos would tear him up. Once they get a majority, they'll make life miserable for whites, blacks and orientals. They're not sneaky about it. They just do it honestly.

Racism is much over rated. It's usually more of a culture bias rather than a race bias. When I was in panama, the American blacks wouldn't have anything to do with the Spanish speaking Panamanian blacks.

As far as the cost factor, much of it isn't obvoius. When immigrants send money out of the country, that is money that isn't circulated in the local economy. Also, many of the latinos work under the table and don't pay taxes. They also get a lot of services paid for by the taxpayer without being legal. 78 hospital;s have gone out of business in Arizona and California. Prison costs are huge. There are other areas with high costs. Got no time. Dan

[RodanCX]

The Latinos are naturally racist..

Excuse you, but what the fuck are you talking about?
According to your logic i'm racist just because i happened to be born in a country in latin america. Even tho mexico happens to be part of north america as well even tho im not going there. And even so you are justifying that?

Anyways, if you say that according to your logic, i'm using this as an example, then i can say you are fat racist lazy slob because you were born in the USA, right?
After all, there's a reason why the rest of the world hates americans, and chances are its because of this kind of ideology.
(REMINDER: This is an example and i'm not saying that i hate americans or the USA, however i do hate ignorant and racist people)

I kinda thought that you weren't so biased about race but then i noticed, you say that the chick at your place wants his son to work there, sounds fine right?, till you specify the fact that she's "oriental" while that is not part of the subject or something that matters in this thread-debate.
Then again later on you go around saying that latinos makes life miserable for whites, blacks and orientals because they are so racist.
This is something you could also apply to other races just because they managed to be the majority at your work place.

I'd be pretty pissed off if i was treated like shit every day just because i happened to be hispanic.

Anyways, what makes you think just because they are latino they are the only people that get paid under the table to avoid taxes?, that's incredibly racist and makes me sick so you know. But i've known people that work under the table so they can collect unemployment and they are white. That doesn't mean that i'm talking shit about white people but what i mean its that there are other people that work under the table other than latinos.

Also, 40 hispanics at your work place?, in Bend, OR??? you must be really taking this numbers out of your ass, last time i've been to bend all the people i saw was white and i didnt see any other ethnicity even when i went to some of the divy bars all the people working there were white. And i've been there quite a couple of times since most of my camp mates are from bend.

And if its true, then why don't you turn your employer over to ICE for employing and paying people under the table? you know thats a really big federal offense. But even so, what kind of place do you work at that employs so many people and engages in such kind of shady activities?

Anyways i'm also running out of time, but i would like to point out the fact that 2/3 of the hispanic population in california are legal citizens. Just because they are brown they are not illegal. FYI.

And also, by some reason i always thought that i would never see something like this from people that go to burning man, but apparently i was wrong, burning man is no exception to the ignorance that plagues the real world. ( BTW, im not talking shit about all the people that go to bman, damn im tired of having to specify so much so i don't get a shitstorm all over me lol.)

PS. Are you a native american?,if not you don't really have any right to talk about it. As people in this thread before have mentioned before.

[Boijoy]

Does someone need a hug? Huuuu??

[ygmir]

I'd think anyone born here is native american............

or, do you refer to the earlier immigrants?........

[can't sit still]

" then i can say you are fat racist lazy slob" Bullshit,,, I'm not fat., Something that you fail to remember is that there are degrees of racism. Should we say that all the people in Chinatown or Little Tokyo or Koreatown are racist because they prefer to live with their own ethnic group? I'm actually in Los angeles now. Southern California has 80 separate ethnic minorities. Just like NYC, many prefer to live in ethnic areas. So what !
We don't call the Quebequois racist because they want to secede.

If you want to see real racism in Mexico, you won't find it in the upper class schools. Ask Commandante Marcos about racism. I spent years traveling around the whole of Mexico. Ask the zapotec, mixtec, mayans, Tarahumara,etc

The message that I,, and the indians of Mexico get from D.F. is that GOV prefers that they all die;
http://www.indigenouspeople.net/racism.htm
I spent months in Chiapas and Oaxaca. They won't even let them in the IMSS clinics. Ask the Guatemalans how they are treated if they try to sneak around Tapachula. After spending half of 10 years with indians and campesinos, there isn't anything that you can teach me about racism south of the Rio Bravo. I drove as far south as Lima, Peru. In so many areas, one is judged just on the shade of skin / mestizo.

Mexico is presently losing <50> % of it's income. The campesinos are going to survive with a milpas far better than "los Europeos" Who knows? Maybe the Maya will rise again.

[RodanCX]

If the hug is for me, sure, i love hugs *hugs back*

Well yeah, im aware there's varoius degrees of racism, but then what else do you expect of an answer when you call a whole race itselft like if your own wasn't. As in: there's americans that are incredibly racist but not all of them are. You know what im talking about.

I do see your point of view however. I'm mexican after all and i do know quite a bit of what you are talking about.

Yeah, i agree there's real racism in mexico, which is exactly the kind that you are talking about.
Man, its funny the looks when i tell people that they should see the government ads on tv to see that almost all the people that appear usually look like europeans as you said, (blond, blue eyes, green eyes, etc)
But then what can i say, i was born and raised in a medium-big city and i'll tell you i never got to meet any real hispanic person(ie mayans and all the other native mexican american branches which i don't remember well cause i hated mexico history in high school lol) until i moved to the USA.
And yeah, there's racism there as well is here where you are judged just on the shade of your skin. IE me and my best friend being a giant proof of that.

However, knowing what my parents have told me, i don't think the mayan are gonna be rising anytime soon. Even if mexico loses 50% of its income, there's plenty of drug cartels that own most of mexico that have some damn good weapons. Specially with people being killed and beheaded back and forth all the time.

Anyways, there's one thing on your posts that still kinda confused me.
Are you one of those people that bait and switches?. Because that's kinda what this thread is turning into from "damn illegal immigrants" to "i've been half a decade in latin america". Soooo, i think i'm done and going to let this thread die

PS. Generalizing is a bad bad thing unless you are being specific obviously lol.

[can't sit still]

". Generalizing is a bad bad thing unless you are being specific"
The choices are to generalize,,, name every case,,, say nothing.
It's not bait and switch. I'm trying to make the point that racism isn't the giant bugaboo that most people make it out to be. So much of what is called racism is cultural bias. If the Russian orthodox don't like the Russian jews, it's cultural.
If people want to line in little Tokyo it's most likely cultural.
To me, racism is like bad drivers / driving. It's everywhere and you get used to it. I had 6 eskimos with knives stand in a circle around my table in a tiny restaurant in Barrow, Ak. They were making pig noises and trying to start a fight. I was later warned not to go out of the hotel after 6:00 pm. My sister in Ak says that there aren't any sober people on the road in Juneau after 4:30.
I've had crashes where people pulled out in front of my motorcycle or car. In both cases, [racism, bad driving], it's generally stupid people doing stupid things.

Since I've become a fat, racist, lazy slob, I can also tell you that any talk about race usually ends up in acrimony,,, even on E-playa;
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=9522
As long as we consider humans to be the crown of creation, we won't ever talk about defects.

[mdmf007]

Thats funny, Even with 5 of them, bringing a knife to a gun fight is always a bad idea.

Eskimos are some of th emost racist people walking the planet. The farther North you get, the worse it gets.

Never heard the 6pm thing.

later

[can't sit still]

I had a swiss Army knife,,, they had belt knives. I had flown in [no road] and my 44 Ruger was back in Fairbanks. My GF was pretty freaked out. The white man has made almost their entire culture useless and redundant. I just happened to be the local representative of the white race.
There is a lot to be said for poverty. If we hadn't conjured up the "Native Lands Settlement Act" , we wouldn't have paid them off from oil revenues. Then, they would have had to continue hunting. I find that many of the Amerinds have an unquenchable thirst for firewater.
The tribal elders had voted Barrow dry. But, the drunks just used their oil money and called up the liquor store in Fairbanks. It came in every day.
I also went to a 5 nation Indian festival in Santa Fe. It was pretty pathetic. A hunting and farming culture is pretty boring compared to the bright city lights.
The march of civilization and society is just SO destructive to anything natural. There is one of the shorts in "Allegro non Troppo" that is animated to Bolero. It's about the march of civilization. It's great. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074121/

[ygmir]

damn humans.........

wanting to hang with folks that look like them, judging others that don't, and, judging others for judging others..........

how imperfect.

now, my judgments, are ok, because, they're PC.........and, I can hate you, because, you're not PC, or, "in"...........

but, you can't hate me, because, I'm repressed or, disadvantaged, or something like that........
someone that looks like me got shafted by someone else, maybe they even looked like you, long ago, and, it's your fault...........I may not have any relation to the shafter, or, shaftee, but, we can certainly argue who is better and has the higher pedestal to look down from.......

but, lets deny human nature, and rise above instinct and all, and, hold hands......because, we know, if we just smile and hug, everyone will like us and no one will mean us any harm.........



now, every one march to your respective corners and think about what you've said, and, what your ancestors may or may not have done.....
or, had done to them.......

[can't sit still]

"deny human nature" How much denial? ALL emotions and impulses?????
The "ant nest" society is great from a corporate point of view but, downright shitty from a humanist view. We have to take the bad with the good. You can't erase hate and keep love. How can you have pride without prejudice?
We are born with a familial affection. We more or less extended this to include the clan when we talk about "us and the others" Later, leaders tried to get us to extend familial affection to include the whole "country"
This is un-natural to our inborn ideas of us and them. GOV tries to force us into a mold that doesn't fit very well. A world GOV would be even worse.
It's only the corporate/ banking mindset that would see any advantage to destroying the unique identities of the various European countries.
There's nothing wrong with national pride and prejudice as long as it doesn't punish other groups. Personal feelings of emotion are OK as long as they don't get carried away. Prejudice is like bad driving; we're all guilty at one time or another.
Dan

[littleflower]

very interesting post, CSS ...

i agree with you ... and yet, i also think that government has to try to be fair, keep us all from fighting. what else can they do?

i also think it's crazy to try to homogenize europe, and probably futile as well ... most europeans have great pride in their cultures, and rightly so. but, as in the U.S., they have people who want better lives, and immigrants from poorer countries willing do jobs that pay less. those workers deserve rights ... and a fair chance at prosperity....

what is the solution?

[ygmir]

good post, CSS.........

I agree, that, our strength, as a species, is diversity...........if we were all the same height, color (probably gray), etc, etc..........what fun would that be.

there's nothing wrong with liking yourself, and, those you choose, more that "others", it's just, being nice to the others is important..........and they are valuable, and, then, realizing that and acting, as such.

[can't sit still]

Littleflower, the whole game changed in the Western world and Japan when populations stopped growing. Previous to that, constant war was needed to keep population from outstripping food production. "War was the game of kings" Britain avoided this somewhat by having her excess population strewn around to colonies.
Now, we have let population runaway in many countries;
"The biggest slum in all of Asia, Dharavi, lies right in the heart of India’s Manhattan, Bombay. Over some 520 acres live 600,000 people, with one public toilet per 800 people. It is a place of unbelievable filth."
Do you think that they grow enough food on 520 acres? Bangladesh is almost as crowded. It's something like 81 million in an area the size of Iowa. The average Ugandan woman has 8.2 children. There is no solution for these problems that doesn't include a lot of death. All populations eventually grow to the limits of their resources. The West is artificially held back.
Ship them food,,,, they have more kids. How do we hold on to our innate idea of the value of human life and , at the same time, let these people starve? The day is coming.

If you let high-birth-rate populations move into low-birth-rate countries, they displace the original population in a few generations. Reportedly 1 in 3 babies born in France is muslim. Are the French racist if they don't want to lose the national character of their country? Since most of the muslims reject education, they can be expected to trash France eventually. Are the French unreasonable to try to keep out cultures that refuse to assimilate into French culture?

The Moors were finally kicked out of Spain after 600 years. Was that right or wrong?
The decision is easy for mother nature; reproduce or die. Kill or die. If a population is stable and respects the land, should they kill invaders whose fecundity will eventually destroy their country? Most populations eventually collapse. Is it better to kill those who won't limit reproduction?
No easy answers.

[ygmir]

that is so tough, and, so true...........

at some point, the question may become:

Who ya gonna feed?........

I vote us.........

[can't sit still]

"Who you gonna feed?" Well, it's good to keep in mind that a huge part of our food comes from California,,, Especially winter vegetables. It might be a problem;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/fe ... ia-drought

Russia is having a record wheat crop but, China is in trouble; http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/fe ... wheat-crop
Australia is in about the 8th year of a severe drought but, Queensland is flooded. It's not necessarily global warming,,,, It's climate change. CO2 reduction won't make any difference. The sun is causing the problem.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=26584 Some of the links are old but, there is plenty of info if you look.
I vote me !!

[ygmir]

I guess that's one reason I'm lucky to live in CA.........

a friend and I have started a company, building raised bed planters and such, so people can grow their own food......all sizes from apartment balconies to community scale........

they seem to be becoming more and more popular....also, a folding hydroponic garden....

I think some folks are thinking along those lines.....and, the addition of food contamination and such drives folks out of supermarkets, too.

maybe, we'll start making a profit soon........hahahaa

one of our mottos: "feed yourself"........

[can't sit still]

"a friend and I have started a company, building raised bed planters and such, so people can grow their own food......all sizes from apartment balconies to community scale...."
Any free samples?

[ygmir]

well, we have lots of redwood blocks from end cuts........and sawdust.......
hahaha

we will, though, be doing reduced price stuff for some individuals and low income groups, when we get up to speed.

[can't sit still]

Even with the recession, GOV hasn't yet cut back on visae. The job picture for the young doesn't look good at all. Since so many pension funds have gone broke, nobody can afford to retire. That is shutting out so many of the young.
http://www.rense.com/general85/dfd.htm
The riots in France and Greece were mostly about no jobs for the young. In 1954, the US deported lots of illegals to make job openings for returning GI s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
The H-1B visae were cut back but, India wants more.
It's projected to get far worse for minority young. It won't be a surprise if the blacks and latinos start fighting over jobs.
The blacks especially resent being denied a job because they don't speak spanish.

[can't sit still]

Well, it looks like the Muslims are going to inherit the earth.

[Toolmaker]

Well, it looks like the Muslims are going to inherit the earth.

we are so fookin doomed

[ygmir]

Well, it looks like the Muslims are going to inherit the earth.

we are so fookin doomed

you guys aren't thinking "outside the box"............

we become pro-active............."scorched earth" policy on north America:

instead of chem/vapor trails from planes, REAL bacon bits.........if the entire continent is covered in bacon bits, they'll not dare, let alone be able, to even set foot here.........