Generators

[Captain Goddammit]

OK... now that we know you a little better, and what type of joking you can handle, I'll start over.
Generators are one of my specialties. I've posted web pages you can visit if you like that teach how to set up parallel junction boxes that work better and are cheaper than the commercial ones, and how to set up external fuel supply tanks, again at low cost, that solve playa-dust fuel contamination issues and extend your running time.
I've owned more generators than you want me to list. The Yamaha and Honda super-quiet units are expensive... but are one place where getting the good stuff is worth it. I would have saved money if I'd just gone that way to start with. That's why we mention it even to people who aren't wanting to hand over so much cash. I didn't wanna either!

The exhaust turns out not to be the main noise source on the less expensive but louder units, the engine itself just radiates noise. It's a characteristic of air-cooled engines. The cooling fins that dissipate heat into the air also dissipate noise into it!
The standard Burning Man generator procedure is to build a three or four sided plywood box, maybe even with some insulation, to redirect the noise up and/or away from camp. It's still gonna be loud, but it helps.

If you want to have a little fun with it, I think it'd be way cool to use a Harley Davidson engine on a generator... Harleys sound cool! Hey, if there's gonna be sound, make it good sound!

[StarShineScars]

OK... now that we know you a little better, and what type of joking you can handle, I'll start over.
Generators are one of my specialties. I've posted web pages you can visit if you like that teach how to set up parallel junction boxes that work better and are cheaper than the commercial ones, and how to set up external fuel supply tanks, again at low cost, that solve playa-dust fuel contamination issues and extend your running time.
I've owned more generators than you want me to list. The Yamaha and Honda super-quiet units are expensive... but are one place where getting the good stuff is worth it. I would have saved money if I'd just gone that way to start with. That's why we mention it even to people who aren't wanting to hand over so much cash. I didn't wanna either!

The exhaust turns out not to be the main noise source on the less expensive but louder units, the engine itself just radiates noise. It's a characteristic of air-cooled engines. The cooling fins that dissipate heat into the air also dissipate noise into it!
The standard Burning Man generator procedure is to build a three or four sided plywood box, maybe even with some insulation, to redirect the noise up and/or away from camp. It's still gonna be loud, but it helps.

If you want to have a little fun with it, I think it'd be way cool to use a Harley Davidson engine on a generator... Harleys sound cool! Hey, if there's gonna be sound, make it good sound!

Thanks for the information. It's not, not being able to handle joking, it's just my thought is that there is a time and a place for it. Kinda something I've learned over the years since my sarcasm has gotten me in trouble many a time. My hope was that someone had found something hidden away on the internet someplace that was comparable to the honda or yamaha but not as pricey. If it comes down to it then I'll dish out the money. Just curious is all. Really don't want to create any enemies or anything like that. Guess just want to actually get answers, kinda doesn't seem to happen as often as I would like on here. But when it does it's been useful.

[Captain Goddammit]

There is a Chinese knock-off, the Kipor. It's similar and supposedly pretty quiet. In my experience with different small-engine things, the Chinese cheapies tend to be lower quality, not as long lasting, and IMPOSSIBLE to get parts for. But there are people on here who have bought the Kipor and liked it. Maybe it's worth a look. It is a lot cheaper up front.

[CompositionB]

Every year people ask the same thing...

post links or I call bullshit

...that way it's gonna be fucking loud like the piece of shit you're probably going to subject the rest of us to...

It seems pretty stupid to assume that a person who asks for recommendations regarding generators is going to end up bringing something that's loud and causes problems? I would expect the opposite to be true.

My post was funny.

not really, it was just sarcastic and rude.

[StarShineScars]

There is a Chinese knock-off, the Kipor. It's similar and supposedly pretty quiet. In my experience with different small-engine things, the Chinese cheapies tend to be lower quality, not as long lasting, and IMPOSSIBLE to get parts for. But there are people on here who have bought the Kipor and liked it. Maybe it's worth a look. It is a lot cheaper up front.

I did notice that one in my searches and something called a Magna. But you're right the knock-off brands many times are well... cheaper. Most of the reviews for them were not so great.

[Elderberry]

Really don't want to create any enemies or anything like that. Guess just want to actually get answers, kinda doesn't seem to happen as often as I would like on here. But when it does it's been useful.

The best way to not fit in here is to take things too seriously, which leaves you wide open for snarky attacks that just tend to escalate with you almost always being the loser.

Regarding getting answers--when someone knows the answer they post it. If they don't, they might just post some remark or comment, which at first glance might not seem important or even seem insulting.

HOWEVER, this is a good thing, because often threads that don't get many replies just die on the vine. So, even if a post seems to not be relevant, it gives the thread a bump up and shows activity--which attracts others to view the thread.

The more people that view your thread, the better your odds are that you will get the answers you are looking for.

So just lighten up a little and go with the flow.

JK

[Captain Goddammit]

Holy crap, I just did a little checking, and those Chinese Kipors aren't so cheap anymore! They WERE a good deal... now they're wanting $800 for their 2000 watt unit. That's Honda price territory. Forget what I said about looking at a Kipor! Never buy Chinese knock-offs over well-known and reputable Japanese stuff.

[CompositionB]

Harshness and frequency is more important than decibel rating.
Cheapest thing to do is buy use of a large generator, if possible.
I slept very near a huge generator last time.
It was much more pleasant than the cheap small ones.


I like these.
You don't have to buy a honda.
http://www.fischerpanda.com/

Those Fisher Panda units appear to be pretty high quality. Unfortunately their smallest size is 4200W. It could be great for a group to share though.

As for size, you are correct that larger generators tend to be the most efficient, however, running an oversized generator will be even less efficient than a small generator that's sized correctly for the load.

I agree that there is no direct correlation between generator size and noise. In fact, the opposite is most likely true. Since a larger generator costs more, adding a higher performance muffler impacts the overall cost less percentage-wise.

[Elderberry]

If you don't need a lot of power, this is a great little inexpensive generator, and it's pretty quiet too. We've taken it to the playa for two years now. It was only $120.00 when we got ours.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 206-_-CONF

JK

[LostinReno]

[quote="StarShineScars"][quote="Captain Goddammit"]Every year people ask the same thing... I want a reliable and quiet generator but I don't want to buy one, what should I do?
Well, if you're not going to get a Yamaha or Honda that is quiet, build your own with a Harley Davidson engine... that way it's gonna be fucking loud like the piece of shit you're probably going to subject the rest of us to, but at least it'll sound COOL![/quote]

First off, I didn't say that I didn't want to buy one. All I did was ask a question that I didn't see answered in any of the searches I did. You know there's supposed to be this whole, share resources thing going on. Maybe someone out there has had some luck with other generators. There is absolutely no reason to be rude and disrespectful, which I think is something that happens way to much here on eplaya. We're all in this together. If you don't have something helpful, or if you're just going to be negative, then don't say anything at all.[/quote]

Can't we all play nice?? This is only my second post here, but I belong to several other forums. The sarcasm here, is mild compared to others I frequent. I personally thought the Harley engine idea was quite funny! Maybe towards the end it was worded a teensy bit harsh but I wouldn't take it personally.

[Captain Goddammit]

I agree that there is no direct correlation between generator size and noise. In fact, the opposite is most likely true. Since a larger generator costs more, adding a higher performance muffler impacts the overall cost less percentage-wise.

It's really not about the muffler. The noise from a small gas engine radiates directly from the block and cooling fins. Sometimes you can wedge rubber blocks between the cooling fins and get a little less noise.
RPM is a big factor. Most cheap sets run at 3600 RPM (a multiple of 60, so it's easy to mechanically arrive at a 60Hz AC sinewave) at all times. A lot of the nicer RV type units run at exactly half that, 1800, and sound much more pleasant.
The little Hondas electronically generate 60Hz AC and aren't dependent on RPM to stay synched. They run at idle and only throttle up as much as necessary to hold whatever load is on them at the time.
In fact, I find I like running two of them in parallel even when one is sufficient, just because a pair of them idling is nicer to listen to than one of them throttled up.

[StarShineScars]

If you don't need a lot of power, this is a great little inexpensive generator, and it's pretty quiet too. We've taken it to the playa for two years now. It was only $120.00 when we got ours.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 206-_-CONF

JK

Thanks for the link. It's gone up in price a bit, but not by much. Seems like it got really good reviews too. We'll have to look at our power usage and see if it will work or not.

[Captain Goddammit]

The website says that thing makes 69dB... that's LOUD!
It's a two-stroke motor. Those aren't just loud, they make that higher-pitched irritating noise like a dirt bike. I've tried those things - for the noise it makes I think you're better off checking Craigslist for a deal on a regular, four-stroke lawnmower-engine type of generator that makes 4000 - 6000 watts. The only down side is it'll be heavier.

[CompositionB]

If you don't need a lot of power, this is a great little inexpensive generator, and it's pretty quiet too. We've taken it to the playa for two years now. It was only $120.00 when we got ours.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 206-_-CONF

JK

Did you do anything to mitigate the sound (plywood hush-house, etc.)? 69dB seems kind of loud, though there are generators at home depot that are quite a bit louder than that.

Does that engine use oil mixed with the fuel or is there a separate oil tank? [edit: nevermind, the manual say mixed with fuel, 50:1]

Search google shopping for "tg1200" and there's a shop that has it listed for $109. Amazon.com has them for $125 otherwise.

[Daddy-O]

OMG - Do you need to get layed or what. Take the stick out of your butt. This is eplaya and this is how it is here.

[StarShineScars]

OMG - Do you need to get layed or what. Take the stick out of your butt. This is eplaya and this is how it is here.

Wow. Ummm... before you insult someone you might want to learn how to spell. It's laid, not layed. And I don't really think eplaya is all about being rude and disrespectful. If that's what it's about for you, then I'm really sorry for you.

[gyre]

Harshness and frequency is more important than decibel rating.
Cheapest thing to do is buy use of a large generator, if possible.
I slept very near a huge generator last time.
It was much more pleasant than the cheap small ones.


I like these.
You don't have to buy a honda.
http://www.fischerpanda.com/

Those Fisher Panda units appear to be pretty high quality. Unfortunately their smallest size is 4200W. It could be great for a group to share though.

As for size, you are correct that larger generators tend to be the most efficient, however, running an oversized generator will be even less efficient than a small generator that's sized correctly for the load.

I agree that there is no direct correlation between generator size and noise. In fact, the opposite is most likely true. Since a larger generator costs more, adding a higher performance muffler impacts the overall cost less percentage-wise.

The electric part uses power according to load.
The minimum consumption of the engine will determine best efficiency.
The quality of the unit will determine more than the size.
Too small a unit is not likely to have some features though.
Certain things cost the same regardless of size.
5000 watts is not that large.

The one I was sharing and sleeping near was 80 kilowatts.


For those having trouble with quotes, enable bbcode on your profile.
I suggest enabling email too.

[Daddy-O]

I am a sorry fuck and thanks for feeling sorry for me. Thank you also for correcting me. Laid, Laid, Laid, Laid, Laid, Laid, maybe we both need to get laid. I know sometimes I think too fast and type too slow. No worries you we will be okay.

[Elderberry]

The website says that thing makes 69dB... that's LOUD!
It's a two-stroke motor. Those aren't just loud, they make that higher-pitched irritating noise like a dirt bike. I've tried those things - for the noise it makes I think you're better off checking Craigslist for a deal on a regular, four-stroke lawnmower-engine type of generator that makes 4000 - 6000 watts. The only down side is it'll be heavier.

The Honda 'Super-quiet" models run at about 60dB, is 9dB that much louder?

We did build an insulated box from the same material we used for the Yurt. (Which we ended up having to remove one side and the top as it got too hot.) We ran it all night and it didn't seem noisy at all. Nobody complained either. (And we asked if it was bothering anyone.)

JK

[StarShineScars]

The website says that thing makes 69dB... that's LOUD!
It's a two-stroke motor. Those aren't just loud, they make that higher-pitched irritating noise like a dirt bike. I've tried those things - for the noise it makes I think you're better off checking Craigslist for a deal on a regular, four-stroke lawnmower-engine type of generator that makes 4000 - 6000 watts. The only down side is it'll be heavier.

The Honda 'Super-quiet" models run at about 60dB, is 9dB that much louder?

We did build an insulated box from the same material we used for the Yurt. (Which we ended up having to remove one side and the top as it got too hot.) We ran it all night and it didn't seem noisy at all. Nobody complained either. (And we asked if it was bothering anyone.)

JK

Thanks. We're actually building a yurt this year, good idea to use the insulation board.

[gyre]

The website says that thing makes 69dB... that's LOUD!
It's a two-stroke motor. Those aren't just loud, they make that higher-pitched irritating noise like a dirt bike. I've tried those things - for the noise it makes I think you're better off checking Craigslist for a deal on a regular, four-stroke lawnmower-engine type of generator that makes 4000 - 6000 watts. The only down side is it'll be heavier.

The Honda 'Super-quiet" models run at about 60dB, is 9dB that much louder?

JK

Yes.
But there is harshness too.

Baffles of layers will work best with some being high mass to thickness.

[Captain Goddammit]

The Honda 'Super-quiet" models run at about 60dB, is 9dB that much louder?

YES!!!
Decibels are not a linear scale. A 3dB increase is double the sound intensity.
Sound intensity goes up exponentially with each decibel.
60dB to 69dB is a lot bigger difference than it might seem just by looking at the numbers.

[justfred]

The Honda 'Super-quiet" models run at about 60dB, is 9dB that much louder?

It's almost twice as loud. Decibels are a logarithmic measurement.

~50-60 db Normal conversation
~70 db Busy street traffic
~80 db Vacuum Cleaner

[Elderberry]

Hey, now I have something to post in the "What I learned new today" thread!

Thanks for the clarification on that. Sort of like the earthquake magnitude on the richter scale then.

Gyre, can you explain this a bit more: "Baffles of layers will work best with some being high mass to thickness."

Thanks,

JK

[gyre]

Materials that are high density for their thickness make the best isolators for sound, as in a wall or window.

(To clarify, you can isolate a device, as in floating it, for certain frequencies, but I am primarily addressing isolation in the sense of a wall isolating sound on one side of it from the other. In one, you are mechanically decoupling the transmission through material. The other refers to acoustic decoupling.)

It's not so good for portability, but including as much as you can helps.
And don't connect layers with screws if possible.
Use a soft adhesive.
Some systems use a type of hook that allows sheets to float.
Different materials together tend to not transmit sound through them.
Sheetrock or masonry sheet/plywood/fiber or sound board/sheetrock repeat
This is a very efficient type of layering.
If you need ventilation, different approaches will have to be played with.
You might have each section slide inside the other separately.

Glass is an excellent acoustic isolator.
Annealed lead sheet is an old standard.
Heavy and soft, so non-resonant.
Tar with jute in it is another- especially good at damping metals.

Reflection tends to be more effective than absorption.
Most techniques use some combination.
It's much easier to absorb high frequency than low.
Thickness of material begins to matter a great deal as the physical wavlength gets longer with lower frequency.
Directing sound upward is effective when possible as open air is a fairly good sound absorber.

Isolating direct vibration through the base of the device is something else that matters.
Better units come this way.

Some of the worse sounds I've ever heard have been cheap generators out there.
I suspect vibration in thinly built ones may hasten their self destruction, just as with any engine block.

Cork is a very effective sound absorber and an excellent heat insulator.
Freezers used to be made of this.

Layered materials made for deadening noise in cars may be useful to some extent.
Soft materials between harder material may work.
Found materials might be useful.
Don't forget heat and fire hazards around generators.

They make heavy fibreglas boards inches thick for industrial insulation.
This can support a floor.
You might even get scrap.
A superb but costly and flammable material is closed cell neoprene rubber foam, also made in thick sheets.

http://paginas.fe.up.pt/~carvalho/beijiahs.htm
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/wallmat.aspx

[Elderberry]

Thanks.

So maybe lining the box I made with the insullation panels with cork panels will make it a lot more sound proof. If I understood your article.

JK

[ibdave]

Actually I've been already and I've had a blast. Met a lot of great people. It's only here on the message board that I see just a few people who repeatedly act like asses. It's to be expected in a community so large, but still always a disappointment. I've gotten a lot of good information from here and most people are always helpful and responsive. Too bad some people ruin it.

Let me help out with the eplayanese translation for you.

"Gee, it would be really nice of you to think about all of the aspects of bringing a generator out to the playa. I really hate having an extremely loud generator set up next to my camp. I can't even hear the wa wa in my head from that giant balloon of nitrous I just huffed down. Please don't just think of yourself and your needs when you pick out a generator, but of your neighbors also. Cheap generators usually are quite loud."

Better?

We have a WINNER......

[gyre]

It wouldn't hurt.
But when you don't have a water cooled unit and have to allow for ventilation, it gets more complicated.
Baffling ventilation openings may be more critical.
Absorbing materials may be more crucial when you can't seal the container.

You may have to use trial and error within your budget.

An absorber will tend to pass sound through a wall if it doesn't absorb all of it.
A hard reflecting surface isolates better.
But in the case of an open box, I think absorbing materials will be very important.
See if you can get some of that dense fibreglas.
It also comes in lighter thinner sheets too.
Maybe having separate boxes that have airspace between them is a good approach.
Remember that isolated air is a good material too.
That is how fibreglas works, for the most part.

I found an older cooler made of 4" cork inside oak.
Not common these days though.

They use interconnecting metal panels with foam inside now.
That makes a good box, but probably expensive.

Combining materials attacks different sets of frequencies.
What transmits through one is stopped by the next, and so on.

There is a lot posted on eplaya about boxes people have built and the limits they found with regard to opening sizes and heat.
Air coming in from the bottom will tend to rise with stack effect though.

Absorbing high frequencies will definitely reduce harshness though.

[poisenloaf]

Ummm.. yeah that would be one of those unhelpful posts that I was talking about.

I guess I just don't understand what drives people to be so rude to one another. Perhaps I'm wrong but isn't that against a lot of what the spirit of the event is about? If you don't have enough respect to not be an ass on a message board then I can't see how you get by in your day to day life. Or maybe you just feel secure hiding behind your computer and you think that gives you the right.

Penny Arcade described it best with Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory which states:

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad

[Elderberry]

Penny Arcade described it best with Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory which states:

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad

Considering that there is an annual meet-n-greet, there is no anonymity; so that sort of puts that equation out of balance.

JK