I've got a vague idea...

[BAS]

I was just listening to WORT, an independent radio station here in Madison, WI. Rose Aguilar, the author of "Red Highways" was being interviewed, and she mentioned that the poor could be a powerful political force in the US if they could be organized. Of course, one problem is that the poor are struggling to survive, which makes getting them organized a problem. So, since, in theory, Burning Man is supposed to be a gathering of creative folks, with every kind of view on a variety of topics, and, of course, survival is an aspect of going out into the desert-- what can folks here come up with to improve the living conditions and economic conditions of America's poor? And the solutions should be approached from a "do-acracy" direction. No waiting for, or even planing on, the government doing anything!

To get it started-- two things I was thinking about was improving people's housing and transportation. Habitat for Humanity already tries to work on housing, but I was hoping for something independent of the grid. (I like the Earthship concept, but those are, apparently, very labor intensive to build...)

For transportation I was thinking of trying to come up with a velomobile like vehicle which could be built from scrap by people. (Living in a Snowbelt state I think having something enclosed would be appealing.)

Anyone have any ideas? I'm trying to see if something practical can be developed.

[ygmir]

I'd think a huge step would be to get them to participate.........a lot of folks, for many reasons, give up, or don't try at all to better their circumstance......
Motivation would be key, IMHO.........
People will work their butts off, if, they think they'll get a return for their labor.........
and, conversely, people don't want to put out extra effort if it's for naught, or, taken away by someone else.......

To me, it's about the people themselves, not so much what someone can offer them..............
People can be very ingenious, and, find the "things" they need, if, motivated.........

IMHO.......

[SilverOrange]

Hey BAS, I've been a self taught student on off grid living and gaining knowledge to construct my own home cheaply.

One of the new technologies out there are Structural Insulated Panels(SIPs)http://www.sips.org/content/about/index.cfm?pageId=7 I think this could be a very interesting concept to integrate. They are easy to build yourself (Sheathing/vapor barrier/foam core insulation/sheathing), take the place of regular stick construction, very efficient, and if you design with standard sizes of materials available (4'x8' panels) you can end up with very little waste. (I.E. Build your house with 8' high ceilings and wall lengths of multiples of four) They can also be used for the roof as well.
As far as power goes, the utilization of passive solar building and design techniques can greatly reduce your electrical power needs. Site situation of your dwelling also plays a big role in this. South facing windows and proper size eaves that can allow lots of light in morning, evening, and winter times, yet block sun at the hottest times of the day can greatly reduce heating and cooling expenses. That along with proper choice of floor material (Concrete, ceramic tile, things that absorb heat and release it slowly) can help heat your house after the sun has gone down.
The biggest cost would be your power gereration. Even with the advances and cheaper solar and wind turbine technology out there it's still kind of expensive. If you had running water the hydroelectric is the way to go. 24/7 power generation. It seems to me that power generation off grid is really site specific. I live in Michigan so I would probably have to go with a combination of wind and solar. I don't know how it is on the other side of the lake, but we get a lot of overcast days when solar would lag, but wind would be great and vice versa.
Shit, I've gotta go. Been thinking about this for a long time and could probably write a book.

[penguin]

I think the first step is to change attitudes. What is really necessary to survive? Habitat for Humanity is a great organization and I applaud what they are doing. But, what if they changed from building a few houses in a community to building 100's of hexayurts? The costs would be the same, but who would live there? I have a feeling that either A) people would refuse to live in them (even though they now live in their cars, in boxes, under bridges) since they aren't real houses; or b) if people did live in them no "regular" folkes would stand for them living in "their" neighborhood.

A person is a person is a person, and until people realize that (and accept it) there will be poverty. It's probably all the railroads fault -- if there were never any railroads there wouldn't be any "wrong side of the tracks".

Part of the problem lies with the government (which is not run by the poor) -- probably in 99% of this country a hexayurt would not be acceptable due to zoning and building code standards -- therefore the government says that people are better off living in their cars, or under bridges, etc.

Even if a local government wants to help usually you'll have the county, or the state or the feds step in and say they can't do things like that.

It's all about attitudes -- there are already 100's of solutions but either people don't want to accept them, or people won't allow them. Humankind spent a whole lot of time living in caves/shacks/nothing, drinking unfiltered water, sleeping at night because there wasn't cable (or even light) -- we could do it IF we really wanted to.

[theCryptofishist]

I'd think a huge step would be to get them to participate.........a lot of folks, for many reasons, give up, or don't try at all to better their circumstance......

Learned helplessness is a bitch.

[theCryptofishist]

To get it started-- two things I was thinking about was improving people's housing and transportation. Habitat for Humanity already tries to work on housing, but I was hoping for something independent of the grid. (I like the Earthship concept, but those are, apparently, very labor intensive to build...)

Earthships are also best in desert environments, apparently. Rainfall goes too high and that's that. Katrina Cottage. Designed to be cheap and small--and can be the nucleus from which a larger house is built.
And lots of labor isn't necessarily a bad thing, if someone is unemployed but can do the work.
It's my understanding as well that Habitat for Humanity builds for Cchristians. Sweet, but homeless jews, muslims, agnostics, zorastrians, buddhists and atheists need roofs over their heads.
And you'll need land to build on.

[misfit]

possibly a move toward socialism or marxism. level the field. or maybe a multi-partied democratic country that has a communist economy.

[Barbie]

They built little temp. houses in my town for the homeless it was a project that lasted 4 years- They were cute a whole group maybe 100 took up this whole field in the center of town. Like a 2 block by 3 block area. One Bedrooms duplexes with porches. Next to the Community Center. People don't need that much room- just a place to call there own. The neighborhood of this area was kept up better- than most of the hoods here in Hawaii 'cause they had to be or the people couldn't stay. At the 4 year mark they took them all Out.
Kinda a Stupid Hawaii thing to do, Just when the town was getting use to them being there. A couple of them were saved and they are still used for different things- Sooooo It wasn't like they had to be torn down.
(I think someone ended up with a lot of little homes on the big island some where or something) The field still sits empty and now a lot of those homeless who got use to being on the North Shore live on the beaches out here. Its SAD. I guess Hawaii is the place to be if your gonna be homeless 'cause its warm, there is fruit on the trees and outside showers at most the beach parks.

[Sail Man]

And you'll need land to build on.

And that is the killer, as far as cost, at least in my area. Land costs drive up the cost of the whole shebang, and at least here in the suburban environment, as we are loosing our rural aspect, local govt's are trying to preserve the open spaces and mandating larger lot sizes which of course means a bigger house and more costs associated with it.
bas, I think for something like you are talking about to work, it would have to be in a rural area with lower land costs, and maybe less restrictive zoning requirements, especially if they are interested in turning vacant land into a source of tax revenue. Smaller local govts that are strapped for cash may be open to the idea.

[theCryptofishist]

And you'll need land to build on.

And that is the killer, as far as cost, at least in my area.

I guess those videos I've seen on the web of blocks and blocks of Detroit as vacant lots are...misleading? greatly edited by the racists that filmed them?
Well, something anyway.

Smaller local govts that are strapped for cash may be open to the idea.

Um. And how are we going to fund poverty services in cash-strapped areas? Look if it were easy to make millions of dollars by taking care of the basic needs of the poor, then we'd have millionaires doing just that.

[Elderberry]

We could give every poor person a $50,000.00 annual stipend. Then they wouldn't be poor anymore.

JK

[Steven bradford]

http://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/

[BAS]

I'd think a huge step would be to get them to participate.........a lot of folks, for many reasons, give up, or don't try at all to better their circumstance......
Motivation would be key, IMHO.........
<snip>
To me, it's about the people themselves, not so much what someone can offer them..............
People can be very ingenious, and, find the "things" they need, if, motivated.........

IMHO.......

One of the difficulties is that the old joke about "I'm too poor to even pay attention" seems to be literally true-- if you are kept so busy trying to survive you don't have much time to try to find ways to better yourself, and the only information source for research that is convenient is the television or radio. (And, in general, if the media keeps the nation divided, it makes for better profits, so the news and other information available isn't the best...)

Anyway, I think the best approach is more or less like AA-- have what's needed to help people available for when they decide to change, and have those folks spread the information to others.

[BAS]

Hey BAS, I've been a self taught student on off grid living and gaining knowledge to construct my own home cheaply.

One of the new technologies out there are Structural Insulated Panels(SIPs)http://www.sips.org/content/about/index.cfm?pageId=7 I think this could be a very interesting concept <snip>

The biggest cost would be your power gereration. Even with the advances and cheaper solar and wind turbine technology out there it's still kind of expensive. If you had running water the hydroelectric is the way to go.
<more>
Shit, I've gotta go. Been thinking about this for a long time and could probably write a book.

I'm going to need to look into the SIPs, thanks.

Land and power are two of the bigger hurdles I see. I have plans from an old issue of Make Magazine for a home built wind turbine from some people in the southwest who apparently design wind turbines for rural poor areas without power. That might be a place to start...

Thanks.

[betrdanevr]

Great that you brought that link here, Steve. Looks like they're wanting to (or maybe already did) build homes in Reno using leftover BM lumber.

John, I know what you're saying. I'm sure we've all known people who you could give $50K to AND a house, and they'd end up with their utilities turned off!

But something still has to be done . . . many times, there are children involved, and I think when people have self-esteem, they WANT to work.
At least that's my hope.

[BAS]

I think the first step is to change attitudes. What is really necessary to survive? Habitat for Humanity is a great organization and I applaud what they are doing. But, what if they changed from building a few houses in a community to building 100's of hexayurts? The

<snipped>

Part of the problem lies with the government (which is not run by the poor) -- probably in 99% of this country a hexayurt would not be

<snip>

It's all about attitudes -- there are already 100's of solutions but either people don't want to accept them, or people won't allow them. Humankind spent a whole lot of time living in caves/shacks/nothing, drinking unfiltered water, sleeping at night because there wasn't cable (or even light) -- we could do it IF we really wanted to.

I need to look into the hexayurts-- if they are the cardboard structures I am thinking of, they wouldn't be good for a long term solution (at least not in cold and/or wet climates). If they are something else, they may be a solution I haven't thought about.

Part of the problem may be attitude, but I think it might be more the government's than the poor themselves. The way things are currently set up makes it easier for the people with more money to participate in the government, and harder for the people with less money to even know what is going on.

There may be 100s of solutions-- but how many people know about them, have the ability to even find out about a good percentage of them (much less ones relevant to their situation)? The Internet might help, but what about people without access to it? What might really be needed is a way to get the solutions to the people, or at least accessible to them.

[BAS]

I'd think a huge step would be to get them to participate.........a lot of folks, for many reasons, give up, or don't try at all to better their circumstance......

Learned helplessness is a bitch.

...and for those who profit from "business as usual", very desirable.

[BAS]

To get it started-- two things I was thinking about was improving people's housing and transportation. Habitat for Humanity already tries to work on housing, but I was hoping for something independent of the grid. (I like the Earthship concept, but those are, apparently, very labor intensive to build...)

Earthships are also best in desert environments, apparently. Rainfall goes too high and that's that. Katrina Cottage. Designed to be cheap and small--and can be the nucleus from which a larger house is built.
And lots of labor isn't necessarily a bad thing, if someone is unemployed but can do the work.
It's my understanding as well that Habitat for Humanity builds for Cchristians. Sweet, but homeless jews, muslims, agnostics, zorastrians, buddhists and atheists need roofs over their heads.
And you'll need land to build on.

Yeah, and Earthships are also, from what I understand, fairly labor intensive, over a long period of time, to build. I've tried emaling their website, but don't know if they will respond. (I want to see if they can come up with anything more likely to get built, although at first I want to initiate contact.)

Could I get more information on a "Katrina Cottage"?

Land is a problem, although it tends to be cheaper in poorer areas (of course, part of the reason is there are less people who can afford any land, so it is kind of a circular problem!)

I might want to talk to Habitat for Humanity, and other, similar organizations to see what has been tried. (Being an agnostic, I would like to see something with less ties to religion, although I do feel at least they are doing religion correctly! [As something to help people, rather than persecute those who are different.])

[BAS]

possibly a move toward socialism or marxism. level the field. or maybe a multi-partied democratic country that has a communist economy.

Well, that is a bit beyond the scope of what I have in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of small but constant improvements (something I kept reading about back when I took some college business classes back in the 1980s. It was the common wisdom of the time that that was, in part, how the Japanese got so far ahead of us.)

[BAS]

And you'll need land to build on.

And that is the killer, as far as cost, at least in my area. Land costs drive up the cost of the whole shebang, and at least here in the suburban environment, as we are loosing our rural aspect, local govt's are trying to preserve the open spaces and mandating larger lot sizes which of course means a bigger house and more costs associated with it.
bas, I think for something like you are talking about to work, it would have to be in a rural area with lower land costs, and maybe less restrictive zoning requirements, especially if they are interested in turning vacant land into a source of tax revenue. Smaller local govts that are strapped for cash may be open to the idea.

I think that rural areas might be where a lot of the poverty is, and gets ignored because it isn't a short trip for the local television station or some such thing. (Although there is still a lot in urban areas like around Detroit... maybe a "one-size-fits-all" approach won't work?)

[BAS]

We could give every poor person a $50,000.00 annual stipend. Then they wouldn't be poor anymore.

JK

Well, that might not be enough if they have medical expenses, to be honest. It'd probably evaporate much like the checks the Bush Administration sent out (then taxed).

Plus, how likely is that to happen, anyway?

[BAS]

http://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/

I'd forgotten about them, and probably should see what they are doing.

Thanks!

[betrdanevr]

Part of the problem may be attitude, but I think it might be more the government's than the poor themselves. The way things are currently set up makes it easier for the people with more money to participate in the government, and harder for the people with less money to even know what is going on.

There may be 100s of solutions-- but how many people know about them, have the ability to even find out about a good percentage of them (much less ones relevant to their situation)? The Internet might help, but what about people without access to it? What might really be needed is a way to get the solutions to the people, or at least accessible to them.

I agree with a lot of what you say there, BAS.

I can tell you from a couple of experiences that city councils listen to the property owners only. And property owners have historically generally been interested in themselves only -- THEIR property values. We are a greedy, self-serving nation. I think we can only HOPE that this downtown in the economy brings some humility to the US of A.

It's a thin line between having a helluva good time and committing a felony. It's also a thin line between having a roof over our heads -- or NOT -- and even moreso now in this economy.

[BAS]

Great that you brought that link here, Steve. Looks like they're wanting to (or maybe already did) build homes in Reno using leftover BM lumber.

John, I know what you're saying. I'm sure we've all known people who you could give $50K to AND a house, and they'd end up with their utilities turned off!

But something still has to be done . . . many times, there are children involved, and I think when people have self-esteem, they WANT to work.
At least that's my hope.

Yes, and what I am leaning towards is more figuring out a coordinated way to help people. There are a lot of ideas and information, but everyone seems to be either talking to themselves, talking themselves out of action, or fighting each other to get what little funding is available to do anything. How can it all be brought together and taken where it is needed?

I recall one theory on why some immigrant groups got ahead when they arrived in the United States and why others fell behind. The theory went that when some of them arrived, whole extended families arrived and gave their money to one member who had an idea of how to make more (or sent a member with funding from the extended family). When that person's business finally made money, they would loan it to the next member, and so on. The groups which didn't do that stayed poor.

Can something like that be done?

(Right now I should get some sleep.)

[SilverOrange]

One possible solution to the land problem could lie within local government. Where I live there are a large number of properties that are owned by the county for nonpayment of taxes. They have a series of auctions every year to try to recoup their lost tax money. A great number of them that are located in poorer areas of the city are never purchased. A lot of them have old houses on them, but there are a fair share that are just bare land. It might be possible to work out a deal with the local GOV to take these off their hands or get them for a good price. With all of the forclosures and the state of the current economy I'm sure there will be a lot more coming down the pipe. I guess in a situation like that you would have to have some kind of proposal for the GOV. Just a thought.

[Toolmaker]

SMALL


LARGE

[SilverOrange]

[youtube][/youtube]

Trash Dome

[theCryptofishist]

Could I get more information on a "Katrina Cottage"?

Basically a very small house or cottage, supposed to be easy to put up, and build out from, to be used instead of FEMA trailors. Like the cottages they put up in Golden Gate Park after the 1906 earthquake. (Some of those were later moved to other sites.) FEMA was too stodgy to go for them, but I still think they are a better solution than cheapo trailers. YMMV.

[theCryptofishist]

To get it started-- two things I was thinking about was improving people's housing and transportation. Habitat for Humanity already tries to work on housing, but I was hoping for something independent of the grid. (I like the Earthship concept, but those are, apparently, very labor intensive to build...)

Earthships are also best in desert environments, apparently. Rainfall goes too high and that's that. Katrina Cottage. Designed to be cheap and small--and can be the nucleus from which a larger house is built.
And lots of labor isn't necessarily a bad thing, if someone is unemployed but can do the work.
It's my understanding as well that Habitat for Humanity builds for Cchristians. Sweet, but homeless jews, muslims, agnostics, zorastrians, buddhists and atheists need roofs over their heads.
And you'll need land to build on.

Yeah, and Earthships are also, from what I understand, fairly labor intensive,

I'm guessing that depending where you are, there are varied solutions that use locally available materials for building.

[theCryptofishist]

http://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/

Let's be very clear that Burners Without Borders is very small in comparison to the largeness of the problems.