Greywater Vaporizer (and emergency cutting torch!) in one?

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:14 pm

I am considering bring a freznel lens setup this year to play with during the day. One of the prime reasons would be to speed up evap pond action - construct pond to concentrate greywater in little pit in middle. Pit in middle has a brick. Focus lens on brick (or really just above it), water starts to boil (at least that is the idea). Would this work? Any down-sides to it? Has anyone tried it before? regards - Jafe

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:55 pm

First off, a brick is a good idea, but what about something more heat absorbant and spreading.

Get a piece of thin sheet metal. Cut long strips of it and bend a small section of the end (lengthwise) so it looks like a long 'L'. Make enough to cover a metal square of size X (I'd say about a foot square). You're basically making a big version of a heatsink. You could also just buy some of the corner stripping used for sheetrock.

Place the 'L' shaped strips onto the square metal sheet and spot weld them. (Optional: get some thermal adhesive and spread it between first and let dry. Loctite makes some.)

Place a thinish sheet (maybe 1/4"-3/4") of a heat retardant material underneath it. Rock, brick, thermal gasketing, whatever. Glue the heat sink to the rock. This will prevent melting/torching what's underneath.

Paint all metal surfaces with black engine spray paint (hi-temp). Spray thin layers, multiple times (better for corrosion and heat). Black as you caqn make it.

The heat will absorb into the sink better and the greater surface area will spread it through the water faster.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:02 pm

I'm not an expert on Fresnel lenses but I am an arm chair mad scientist.

Instead of just converting the water to steam why not have it do something useful? You could create some kind of solar powered steam engine, or divert the steam through a whistle or other "wind" powered instrument (remember the steam whistle project called Whistle Works?- see link)

http://acre.murdoch.edu.au/refiles/hightemp/text.html

http://belizeone.com/BzLibrary/trust39.html

http://www.barkley.org/whistle/

Zephryus · Post by **Zephryus** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:26 pm

If I was gonna do that with a lens, I wouldn't use a fresnel. They're wonderfully light weight, but every fresnel that I've seen is made with a diffusion coating that would almost ruin any magnifying glass properties.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:41 pm

A mirror might be easier to set up.. you could use aluminum foil or a $3 emergency blanket.

I'd worry about concentrating the light too much. If it's off focus, it could melt/burn whatever happens to be under it. I don't think you necessarily need to boil the water, anyway. Just heat it up, spread it out, and allow some airflow.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:01 pm

I don't think you could get a tub of water to spot-boil with a lens of any practical size. The entire load of water would have to reach 212 before any of it would boil, and if you did that I would be more worried about a big, uncovered tub of boiling water than I would about speeding up my evaporation. YMMV

calsur · Post by **calsur** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:45 pm

Are you talking about using the fresnel lens in reverse? To gather light and concentrate it rather than taking a concentrated light source and casting it like a lighthouse?

Hot idea if it works. I would suggest testing it before usage.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:38 am

This topic is new to me so forgive me if I say something that shows my naivety.

How well would a parabolic mirror work?

calsur · Post by **calsur** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:17 am

http://lighthousegetaway.com/lights/fresnel.html

calsur · Post by **calsur** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:10 am

DVD Burner,

I read your post too fast.

A parabolic mirror focuses the sunlight up off the ground. Think of it like a reverse magnifying glass. A magnifying glass concentrates the energy of the sun through the glass and lets you start fires. The parabolic mirror concentrates the suns energy but reflects it back at the sun. So you have to have a energy collector above the mirror and reflect it back through a hole cut in the mirror or use the reflected energy (called the focus) at the source. The other problem is the sun moves. So unless you have a motor to track the movement, you spend all day adjusting the mirror.

So how do I know all this? My Dad is an amateur astronomer. He has been boring me unto death with all of this since 1968. The magnifying glass (straight through) telescopes are called "refractors". The parabolic mirror types are called "reflectors".

So what I think, DVD, is dragonfly Jafe, is trying to adapt a lens setup that was used in light houses to project concentrated light in reverse so he does not have to have a motor to drive his light concentrating lens. He would have an arc of lenses that as the sun moved the next lens falls in line.

dragonfly Jafe, my two concerns with this would be the same as repeated on the Eplaya often. Wind and dust. Good Luck.

And if I am wrong about your concept, please let me know.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:28 am

See calsur ?

Thanx Much !

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:51 am

<smartass>
Just drink your graywater.

That way you can dispose of it as piss, puke and shit in the JOTS.
</smartass>

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:14 am

The other problem is the sun moves. So unless you have a motor to track the movement, you spend all day adjusting the mirror.

Or you just get a lot of mirrors.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:18 pm

WOW - a wealth of good ideas. Yes, I am talking about concentrating the sun's energy in one spot. You can get a hot enough point to melt aluminum. You still have to adjust it every so often of the focus moves (but that is part of the fun - something to do with the sun). I really like the idea of doing something with the steam...make a production out of it "grey water goes in here, focus the sun, and VOILA! something cool happens". If it works well enough (and is cool enough) I may actually have to go out and FIND extra greywater to keep it going. Anyone have any ideas where I could find that?

thanks all - Jafe

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:31 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:WOW - a wealth of good ideas. Yes, I am talking about concentrating the sun's energy in one spot. You can get a hot enough point to melt aluminum. You still have to adjust it every so often of the focus moves (but that is part of the fun - something to do with the sun). I really like the idea of doing something with the steam...make a production out of it "grey water goes in here, focus the sun, and VOILA! something cool happens". If it works well enough (and is cool enough) I may actually have to go out and FIND extra greywater to keep it going. Anyone have any ideas where I could find that? thanks all - Jafe

Oooooohhhh. Ideas part 2.

Slope your grey water tank slightly to one side. At the lowest point, place a steel/copper tube opening to go out, place a one way valve to allow for water to flow into the tubing, but not allow water to escape back to the tub. Grab an old radiator for a smaller motor (smaller diameter tubing). Run a tube out the other side of the contraption to a whistle at a point a couple feet above the grey water level.

Water flows into the radiator, the lens heats the radiator, the steam's easiest escape route becomes the whistle. Once the steam is depleted, the pressure on the one way valve allows more water to come in, which cools the pipe allowing it to fill. Once filled it heats up until pressure prevents it from going out to the grey water tank (valve). Then steam out whistle til the steam is gone, then lack of pressure allows water back in. Ad nauseum.

Note: Mechanical engineering is not my field, so I'm just throwing out a theory that might work.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:58 pm

hmmmm. I know what I'm going to be doing over summer break! The only thing I can think of that would kill the idea is some government organization. greywater on the Playa is bad - anyone know what would happen if I sprayed "greysteam" into the air? I assume that 212 deg. would kill most pathogens (maybe a bad assumption?), but what about the other stuff (organics, non-organics,etc.). I assume the solids would stay put (creating possibly yet another issue with clogging) but what about the non-solids like oils? Would they create a health risk? Maybe filter first, then vaporize? Anyone know? Which agency handles such things (pools, public showers, etc) at BRC? Nevada Public Health? Regards, Jafe

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:46 am

Well I just don't get it. We're not there very long, why go to so much trouble to make greywater treatment setups when you can just put it in big containers and haul OUT the same, but dirtier, water you hauled IN? Simple and 100% effective.

Our camp is talking about an evap pond too.
This all reminds me of a cat who's "stuck" in a tree because he won't back down the same way he went up.
I use 3 or 4 33-gallon garbage cans to carry water in, and pour the greywater into the same cans when empty. After they've seen grey duty, I use 'em for garbage back home and get new ones next year. They're super-cheap at Home Depot.
I take all the hot showers I want and leave no mud puddle.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:24 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Well I just don't get it. We're not there very long, why go to so much trouble to make greywater treatment setups when you can just put it in big containers and haul OUT the same, but dirtier, water you hauled IN? Simple and 100% effective.

Logical, but it does nothing to satisfy the urge to overengineer and play with fiery toys in the desert (which is one of the big reasons I go each year). If I could, I would convert the grey water atomically into tequila, or something else equally tasty. Stuffing it back into the same container you brought it in is so.....practical.

Obviously you don't have the proper "BurningManSpirit(tm)"!

regards, Jafe

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:12 am

O.K., you're right... except about that not having the proper BM spirit thing. Trust me, I build enough other crazy shit to qualify as being sufficiently disturbed to be a burner.
And dude, if you figure out how to turn greywater into tequila, we need to party. Hell, I'm impressed that you even THOUGHT about that!

Atar · Post by **Atar** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:23 am

I know this is an incedibly old topic but I just felt the need to kick it. Found this while searching for windpowered art. I thought about this a bit and I think taking a piece of metal like described in the second post and heating up the water in it to boiling point would not be ideal. What I think would be more ideal is to drip or spray the water onto the boiling hot surface of this metal 'bucket'.
Taking solid bodies of water from its usual temperature to evaperation point takes more energy compared to smaller bodies of water (aka: Drips, 'mist', small downpour, shower-like pour).
You would have to either lift the water above the metal bucket or use a small pump. Gravity would work best since you can invize a more simple valve to just open a bit more or a bit less. When using a pump you would have pressurised water and thats a bit harder to regulate.

Would this one work?

The image is clickable. Its a 2.1 by 2.75 feet freznel for 30 bucks on eBay. The description says it will melt metal

What do you think?

Kriten · Post by **Kriten** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:16 am

Perhaps focusing the rays of 112 suns would boil that gray water almost instantly. The focus you would have to adjust but it looks to me like this setup only needs a few minuets to destroy anything.

http://www.solardeathray.com/

Atar · Post by **Atar** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:33 pm

Hehehehe, sweet! That thing is cool. Maybe we should ask the guy to aim it at some water and see if it will boil. I'll see if I can find is email addy

Okay, its safe to assume he can boil water. Found this on his website:

As a check, paper will ignite at around 230
degrees Celsius (450 degrees Fahrenheit). Because I can routinely ignite
paper with the Solar Death Ray, I know it can heat things to at least this
temperature.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:47 pm

Hate to bust some bubbles, but unless you're going to hook un some kind of sun tracking system to keep the lens pointing at the sun, most of your daylight is going to be wasted...

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:18 pm

Use the grey water to spray on people - free shower and stuff.

All fun and games until someone contracts diptheria.

Greywater Vaporizer (and emergency cutting torch!) in one?

Greywater Vaporizer (and emergency cutting torch!) in one?

Ideas for ya.

Grey-Steam, a 2nd hand risk?