Stupid Question

[cincarus]

Waste water...how fast do you think it evaporates there? We have a "MacGyver" who has this bright idea for a shower she wanted to try.

Now what's silly they told me they are bringing the jumbo RV, which I guess has a decent shower. What, is the dust that bad? Or getting rid of the water worse?

I had this thought that maybe they just thought it might have some entertainment value? They are degenerate bastards but I love 'em anyway!

In any event, so if you built a evaporative pan would the water evaporite quickly during the day?

Cindy

[thisisthatwhichis]

Actually, it's not a stupid question, and there are long threads discussing the problem...... As all wastewater that's not evap-ed needs to be hauled out......

Start here:
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 23&start=0

[AntiM]

Even a jumbo RV will not have tanks big enough to hold all the waste water. It must be pumped or the water evapped off.

[Sail Man]

Even a jumbo RV will not have tanks big enough to hold all the waste water. It must be pumped or the water evapped off.

Damn! There goes my sprinkler system

[mdmf007]

Coffee, Ice, and Poop Water / Grey water Pumping are the three things you can buy at BM. Simply flag down the poop truck when you see it and he adds you to his list of crappy things to do that day.

[cincarus]

I see what you mean now about storing the waste water.

Now I'm curious about the volume of the waste. It would better to evaporate what you can.

Now this would be an interesting question to submit to "Ask This Old House", maybe score a free t-shirt!

Cindy

[melvi]

who needs a shower, just take a pack of baby wipes :D

[Elderberry]

who needs a shower, just take a pack of baby wipes

EWE!!! Don't know how anybody could get along without a daily shower. Nothing feels better than a nice warm shower on the playa. I use baby wipes in between daily showers.

JK

[penguin]

who needs a shower, just take a pack of baby wipes

EWE!!! Don't know how anybody could get along without a daily shower. Nothing feels better than a nice warm shower on the playa. I use baby wipes in between daily showers.

JK

Nothing JK?

And back to the topic at hand...

MAKE YOUR OWN GRAYWATER EVAPORATION SYSTEM

Did you know it's illegal to dump graywater on the playa? Yep. Do
you know what graywater IS? OK here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graywater

Now, Larry Breed writes in to tell us about his really cool graywater
evaporation system that you can make yourself, and that he will be
workshopping at the upcoming Burning Man Open House on April 4 at
BMHQ! Larry writes:

"Life on the playa uses fresh water; and life on the playa therefore
produces waste water -- potty water, yes, but also 'graywater.' What
to do with graywater? Dumping it on the ground is bad manners, and
also illegal; so Burners pack it out, pay Johnny to take it, or build
fabulous devices that make it disappear. These fabulous devices are
evapotrons, and every one of them is one of a kind.

Fabulous, but no longer one of a kind! Starting with a demonstration/
workshop led by the inventor, you can build a wind-powered "Gray-B-
Gon" evapotron that will dispose of all your camp's kitchen, shower,
and other non-potty water. (For small to medium camps, and average
wind.) You round up the 2x4's, old bike wheels, and panty hose (and a
few more items), and we will provide instructions and the harder-to-
find (or to-make) parts.

Please check out the evapotron online and see if it's your cup of --
um, tea. Search for Gray-B-Gon on http://www.instructables.com and let
us know in advance if you want to build one - email the workshop
leader at [email protected]."

[Barbie]

I totally Agree with JKisha!! It is SOoooo Wonderful to be able to take a shower on the PLAYA... And I have Never Gone Without!! I'm such a girlie Girl ( I guess thats why they call me Barbie ) I have to get some of the Dust & Sweat off at least once a Day!! I love my Big Blue Bath Tub!!!

[cincarus]

I knew one person who actually had an outdoor shower, at a campsite, that had a nice solar water heater that heated the water just fine. Cool design that supposedly worked great.

But getting rid of the water was another matter. I never thought about that.

[Sail Man]

[youtube][/youtube]

Do not run up to the truck from behind

[cincarus]

I've been told they are working on some sort of fountain thing to evaporate the waste water. Supposedly someone did this in the past. I wonder if it'll work? I guess low ambient humidity with some heat should take of the waste water.

It looked odd, but I take it they think it'll work.

[mojo]

Cin - you will see many, many different evaporation contraptions, ponds, fountains, etc that people have developed over the years. Search this site and there is LOTS of info to be had, including photos of "fountains".

The issue is that wastewater is pollution and should not be dumped on the playa. Good for your campmates that they are willing to design and build an evap device. It means you are likely in good hands.

[dragonfly Jafe]

...and with few exceptions, most evap systems work as well as most perpetual motion systems - not quite.

The problem is each system can only evaporate so many gallons per day. This will vary depending on sun, dust covering your black stuff, etc. Discipline is required to not overload your pond. Ideally your pond should be dry each morning. Otherwise you are putting more water in each day than can evaporate in a day. The required size can be staggering.

Cutting edge designs involve a vertical element (since ground space is valuable in your camp) and wicking elements of some kind (cloth or wire mesh or porous volcanic rock). Some designs are motorized and dip a wicking element into the water then rotate the wet element around a circle - by the time it gets around back into the water, it is dry and ready for more water. Some designs rely on sprinklers (be sure that your pond is big enough to capture what comes down, even in high winds, otherwise you are just dumping on the Playa in disguise). I theorized a few years ago that one could use a giant fresnel lens to vaporize the water (still untested btw).

Unless you are a tinkerer (and I am), in my experience it really is best to put the water back in the containers it came in, and bring it back home (or dump it at the first legal dumping space you get to). 100% sure and lower weight driving to BRC (no evap pond weight to add). Add some bleach to kill the smell.

Good Luck!

[bx1]

Your best bet (and least hassle, especially your first year), is to just do what mdmf007 suggested and flag down the poop dood and get him to take your grey water for you. I personally feel this is a necessity when you got an RV with no grey water dumping areas around...

[mdmf007]

Nothing replaces surface area for evaporation, No matter what system you use you want as much surface area as you can get.

With the humidity in the single digits you can evaporate a fair amount of water in a short time using the right materials.

Using some sort of fibrous element that is saturated with water, but still allows for air to pass through is one of the most efficient means to increase the surface area millions of times. The elements used in a swamp cooler are perfect examples and available at Home Depot or Lowe's et.al. for a few bucks. and you can make a frame from almost anything.

Recirculate the water and it disappears rather quickly. Problem on playa is the elements also make a perfect dust filtering machine. Collecting the dust form the air and depositing it in your once efficient evaporative machine.

Using optics to collect the sun sounds good, until you do the math and realize that if you capture 10 meters of sunlight, and focus it onto a 1 inch square, its still not as efficient as simply collecting 10 meters of sunlight onto the water to begin with. Black tarp is certainly cheaper than any type of optic device. Conservation of energy and all.

Its like using propane to run a generator to run an electric water heater, your better off burning the propane to heat the water directly.

[Elliot]

I've been brainstorming for a couple of years about a large black tube, like a chimney. Maybe the corrugated ABS pipes that are used as culverts. But metal would be more efficient -- the galvanized spiral formed culverts. Cloth draped inside it in a zig-zag pattern -- slowing and spreading the water while allowing air flow. Perhaps two feet diameter and ten or 15 feet tall. In my case, I could strap it to my bus which is 12 feet tall. My thinking is to speed evaporation by concentrating heat inside the tube. And that hot air would rise, carrying the moisture out the top of the "chimney". Flow of input water at the top would ideally be so that just a little bit drips back into the "big bucket" at the bottom.

Does this make any sense?

[Bob]

And people wonder why people get sick at bunringman.

[Elliot]

And people wonder why people get sick at bunringman.

Excellent point. I just invented a germ distribution device, didn't I. Thanks Bob! That's the kind of input we need.

I do indeed prefer carrying gray water out; and I do with my own, in the tanks I installed in my 40 foot bus.

In 2006 I spend all Tuesday-after bleaching (actually RV sewer tank chemical), filtering, and widely spreading all the leftover gray water from a plain black-plastic-and-two-by-fours pond. Dog, what a mess.

Maybe my mission is to bring a tanker truck. I have the license!

[penguin]

Ok, silly question...

Why not just build a water incinerator? Could be as simple as a propane torch in the bottom of a metal bucket and a pump with a mister nozzle on the end that sprays a mist into the flame? The energy required (propane and something to run the pump) is obviously not going to make it a green solution, but wouldn't it work??

[Elderberry]

We had the idea of making a filter using a 35 gallon drum, or maybe just a 5 gallon water jug, filling it with layers of sand, activated charcoal, and cheese cloth. Then treating the water with chlorine bleach, running it through the filter then either sprinkling it on the playa or reuse it for showers. We'll be doing some testing on building the filter and seeing what the quality of the filtered water will be before deciding whether to reuse of just sprinkle it on the playa.

There are also gravity filter systems that can be purchased for under $200 dollars that would make the water suitable for drinking, which also may be a solution should our home-made model not give the desired results.

If anyone has used any sort of filtering system for treating grey water, I'd like to hear about your solution.

JK

[phil]

Yow! I've read the whole thread. thisisthatwhichis has the best answer, but let's look back:

> In any event, so if you built a evaporative pan would the water
> evaporite quickly during the day?

The answer is no. Sunlight on an evaporative pan has not proved sufficient to evaporate water fully. People have built _large_ ponds of many square feet with black plastic under the water. It just hasn't worked. See thisisthatwhichis's link for fuller explanations.

[Ugly Dougly]

Ok, silly question...

Why not just build a water incinerator? Could be as simple as a propane torch in the bottom of a metal bucket and a pump with a mister nozzle on the end that sprays a mist into the flame? The energy required (propane and something to run the pump) is obviously not going to make it a green solution, but wouldn't it work??

It would be easier to lug back the dirty water.

But A+ for introducing fire to the equation!

[mdmf007]

or you could do it Great Escape Style, Where the entire camp was taking the dirt from the tunnel outside and spreading it around.

You could take 2 2 quart bottles with you every trip and dump them in the JOTS. that would be a gallon a trip.

completely unethical, not in standing with the LNT policy, and just plain wrong. Better then dumping your soapy shower brine on the playa though. Of course all the poop just gets "Ground Injected" at the ranch site. (per the Winnemucca B.L.M. special use permit) so its o.k. 12 miles up the road, but not on playa.

[dr.placebo]

If you want to have a really minimal shower setup for 1-4 people you might try what I did this past year. I got a 2 gallon hand-pump garden sprayer and filled it with fresh water. When I took a shower I put down a tarp, then put down two old towels. Standing on the towels I took a spray shower, using a washcloth with minimal liquid soap to scrap the dust off me, then dried off with a clean towel. The towels soaked up all the shower water. Then I hung up all 3 towels to dry on my shade structure (dry in under 1 hour).

To make this work you have to be able to handle a shower with very little water (the 2 gallons lasted the whole week with some to spare). This setup is not luxurious. It's not for the shy. But it gets you clean, it's simple, there's no greywater disposal problem, and it's cheap.

Also, by using the sprayer on the misting setting you can get quite cool in the heat of the day.

[Ugly Dougly]

Yup, keep the volume low, and increase the chances for evaporation.

[ourania]

Thanks Doc. I think we've found our shower system. I've been toying with the idea of some sort of sprayer system and hearing that it worked for you and didn't result in massive evap problems sealed the deal. This will be my first year and while I'm looking forward to the heat and dust, the stories about playa crotch/skin/feet on other threads make me think showering is something I'd really like to keep up in the desert.

[Elliot]

I recommend use of a wash cloth, with a splash of vinegar or lemon juice in the tiny amount of water needed, and lots of good thick skin cream rubbed well in. Specially the feet. Sleep with a generous fresh application and clean socks.

[Elderberry]

Since vinegar, lemon juice and misting have been mentioned--I wonder, would adding a bit of lemon juice or vinegar added to misting water be beneficial for just general cooling and keeping the play dust neutralized?

JK