Pelosi vs. the CIA--Who's really lying?

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:53 am

OK I'm perplexed. With the majority position that the Dems have in the house and senate and whitehouse; and everything seemingly going their way; Why would Nancy Pelosi Lie about the CIA misleading congress? It makes no sense to me and I can't see any upside for her.

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:07 am

jkisha wrote:OK I'm perplexed. With the majority position that the Dems have in the house and senate and whitehouse; and everything seemingly going their way; Why would Nancy Pelosi Lie about the CIA misleading congress? It makes no sense to me and I can't see any upside for her.

JK

careful JK: your "biased naivete" is showing........

You gotta know what a turd she is.......just like most others in congress......."plausible deniability" is all they're after...........
and, with a sympathetic media, she'll probably get away with it.........
I'd think the CIA are mostly life long, career, employees, not so favorable to any particular administration.......but, also, by design, covert.
I'd bet, in closed door meetings, they are quite frank.
I also bet the meetings are closed door, so, the politicians can deny everything they know and since it's a "national secret", can't be contradicted........

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:17 am

i gotta agree on the "plausible deniability"

as far as i am concerned, Pelosi is lying and shirking her intelligence committee responsibilities.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:39 am

The CIA`s original military roots and national security role have been expanded to include spying on US citizens and manipulating politics and policy for some time now.
Who cares what Pelosi heard in the briefing.
Any excuse will do as long as Pelosi is removed from power.
Her sin is she stands in the way of further "nationalization" of banks and bankers; and therefore is a hindrance to the advancement of the total economic control of citizens and a global ruling class supported by a unified military system: the "New World Order" we`ve heard so much about. The big players could care less about Democrat or Republican affiliation, other than the individual politician`s ability to broker legislative power.
When the going gets tough, absolute power rules, and the CIA is all about grabbing and quantifying power.
Expect economic crisis and terrorist attacks. They are, for the time being, the glue that holds us together.
Pelosi is over. Sooner or later. The bankers decide.

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:53 am

Unfortunately there is no way that we are likely to know the truth. Both parties are strongly motivated to prevaricate. I have some sympathy with Pelosi's position, though, since the CIA has been less than open over the years, and especially so over the torture practices.

My opinion is that this whole thing about Pelosi is just a sideshow. I'm primarily concerned about getting an understanding about how this systematic use of torture came about and putting procedures in place to keep it from happening again.

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:07 am

JK is correct Pelosi has nothing to gain by bringing this public.

A good idea or the truth; is still a good idea or the truth even if it is from the devil.

Peolsi may be controversial, but the CIA has rogue elements that account to NO ONE. Absolute power, absolutely corrupts, so shedding light on these groups is a good step.

I am glad that she brought this forward.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:10 am

This thread/topic is moot.

Post by **Elderberry** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:11 am

dr.placebo wrote:Unfortunately there is no way that we are likely to know the truth. Both parties are strongly motivated to prevaricate. I have some sympathy with Pelosi's position, though, since the CIA has been less than open over the years, and especially so over the torture practices.

My opinion is that this whole thing about Pelosi is just a sideshow. I'm primarily concerned about getting an understanding about how this systematic use of torture came about and putting procedures in place to keep it from happening again.

Sideshow perhaps to divert attention away from whether torture was ordered as a last resort effort to gain information to protect the country from eminent attack or that it was ordered to try and find some connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda and 9/11 to justify going to war?

The first might be justifiable, the second totally illegal and could lead to prosecutions.

Just wondering...

JK

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:33 am

LostinReno · Post by **LostinReno** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:56 pm

Thanks for the waterboarding lesson! Seriously, I never knew what all was involved! I love how they point out that the CIA uses cellophane instead of cloth.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri May 15, 2009 4:09 pm

interesting:
a bunch of you would be screaming and, chanting for censure, if, it were Newt Gingrich instead of Nancy Pelosi.............I'd bet on it.............

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:45 pm

OK, my understanding is that Pelosi is being accused of lying about the extent of her knowledge of torture techniques being practiced by the CIA (and others) under the direction of the Bush/Cheney administration (hereafter known simply as TFI - Those Fucking Idiots).

If true this does not exactly raise my opinion of Pelosi. But in order for this accusation to be true then we have at least dozens of people inside TFI with equal or greater knowledge of the situation. Further, we have several in TFI who were directly responsible for those policies.

So now we have Republicans who previously accused the Democrats (including Pelosi) of treasonous activity for not supporting the war turning around and blaming her for lying about the illegal and utterly immoral activities of TFI.

I don't care about absolving Pelosi of anything, but trying to make her the guilty party is rank hypocricy. I do care about the truth getting out about how we were systematically and knowingly deceived about Iraq and terrorism and especially about our own conduct. That deception was a matter of policy with TFI, and it continues to be a matter of policy for certain Republicans.

And no, if Newt Gingrich was lying about how much he knew of the Clinton administration's use of torture I would not be asking for Newt's scalp. I would still be against those most directly responsible.

I simply ask those who dislike Pelosi to face up to the greater issue: the attempt of TFI to escape responsibility.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:02 pm

dr.placebo wrote:OK, my understanding is that Pelosi is being accused of lying about the extent of her knowledge of torture techniques being practiced by the CIA (and others) under the direction of the Bush/Cheney administration (hereafter known simply as TFI - Those Fucking Idiots).

If true this does not exactly raise my opinion of Pelosi. But in order for this accusation to be true then we have at least dozens of people inside TFI with equal or greater knowledge of the situation. Further, we have several in TFI who were directly responsible for those policies.

So now we have Republicans who previously accused the Democrats (including Pelosi) of treasonous activity for not supporting the war turning around and blaming her for lying about the illegal and utterly immoral activities of TFI.

I don't care about absolving Pelosi of anything, but trying to make her the guilty party is rank hypocricy. I do care about the truth getting out about how we were systematically and knowingly deceived about Iraq and terrorism and especially about our own conduct. That deception was a matter of policy with TFI, and it continues to be a matter of policy for certain Republicans.

And no, if Newt Gingrich was lying about how much he knew of the Clinton administration's use of torture I would not be asking for Newt's scalp. I would still be against those most directly responsible.

I simply ask those who dislike Pelosi to face up to the greater issue: the attempt of TFI to escape responsibility.

so,
are you implying no one pay attention to Pelosi and her transgressions, since, she's a minor player, and, just go after the "TFI"?
Or,
are you suggesting, anyone, and everyone, transgressing get a wacking?............

Just trying to get a handle on the size of the paint brush you're using.........

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Sat May 16, 2009 10:01 pm

I'm suggesting that the Pelosi flap is intended as a way to divert attention from those who designed this mess. That Pelosi knew more than she admits to seems likely, but does not make her culpable in the acts themselves. That she was partly misinformed by the CIA (and others) also seems likely to me.

In my opinion there are two very significant crimes in this area that deserve investigation. The first is the war in Iraq, which was started through a combination of deception, avarice, and incompetence. The second is the general moral erosion that is typified by the use of torture, but includes a more widespread attack on civil liberties both inside and outside the US.

My reading of the evidence so far is that there were those who were enablers (incuding Democrats), and those who were innocent (including Republicans), but that a relatively small cadre in the Bush/Cheney administration (aka TFI) were the planners and the motive force behind these crimes.

I am not a vengeful person, and I don't really want to have a witch hunt. I especially don't want to have the lash fall on the backs of the minor characters. What I am most concerned about is repairing the damage and protecting against it happening again.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat May 16, 2009 10:13 pm

ok, Doc, thanks for the clarification.
I'm with you on part of it............I'm for holding EVERYONE accountable for things done wrong..........or no one...........

give minor players, minor spankings.............
big players get honey rubbed on their asses and bent over a bear den.........

I wish government were held accountable, in general.......they live in a different world.......above us, in their own eyes.........laws, social security, tax evasion, on and on..........

I'm for pushing them all out of Air Force One, flying low over New York, and, let the survivors have their jobs back...........

but, that's just me......

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sat May 16, 2009 10:38 pm

Anyone that feels that torture will not be a part of any war is living in a fantasy world. War is fucked.. PERIOD. There is no such thing as a nice war. There is always gonna be gruesome shit when ppl fight each other.

I mean seriously.. does anyone really believe that ANY country will ignore the STANDARD practices of warfare as they have been for centuries?

While I may think torture is evil and lame as hell I have to be intelligent enough to admit that it is real and will not leave the earth no matter what. People may think what we do now and what has been done in the past is nasty, but you need to look at what the other side does. Us refusing to play the game as its always been played just makes us out to be the losers. Tactically speaking its got to be done. People need to stop with Star Trek and get real. We live in a nasty violent world that will never change.

Everyone is lying when it comes to our government. These little media stunts are just to keep the proles entertained. ANYTHING to keep you from seeing the kids coming home missing limbs so you want to goto DC and protest.

Anyone that thinks that Obama or ANYONE else will stop torture is also delusional. Call me an asshole for sayin it but it is INTEGRAL to WARFARE. PERIOD. In the end torture saves lives with the information thats gained. The best you can hope for is that the troops will stop taking pictures while playing coed naked twister with the pows and lettiong the shit get out. Abu Gharib is NOTHING to whats goin on elsewhere. If ppl really had a clue to whats goin on they'd prolly just off themselves. Waterboarding is NOTHING compared to some of the other options in the book.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sat May 16, 2009 11:18 pm

Toolmaker wrote:Anyone that feels that torture will not be a part of any war is living in a fantasy world. War is fucked.. PERIOD. There is no such thing as a nice war. There is always gonna be gruesome shit when ppl fight each other.

I mean seriously.. does anyone really believe that ANY country will ignore the STANDARD practices of warfare as they have been for centuries?

While I may think torture is evil and lame as hell I have to be intelligent enough to admit that it is real and will not leave the earth no matter what. People may think what we do now and what has been done in the past is nasty, but you need to look at what the other side does. Us refusing to play the game as its always been played just makes us out to be the losers. Tactically speaking its got to be done. People need to stop with Star Trek and get real. We live in a nasty violent world that will never change.

Everyone is lying when it comes to our government. These little media stunts are just to keep the proles entertained. ANYTHING to keep you from seeing the kids coming home missing limbs so you want to goto DC and protest.

Anyone that thinks that Obama or ANYONE else will stop torture is also delusional. Call me an asshole for sayin it but it is INTEGRAL to WARFARE. PERIOD. In the end torture saves lives with the information thats gained. The best you can hope for is that the troops will stop taking pictures while playing coed naked twister with the pows and lettiong the shit get out. Abu Gharib is NOTHING to whats goin on elsewhere. If ppl really had a clue to whats goin on they'd prolly just off themselves. Waterboarding is NOTHING compared to some of the other options in the book.

Can you explain your experience that gives you this view. Which war did you fight in? Where you a pow anywhere?

Soldiers on the battlefield are under the most stress but we don't forgive an error in their judgement. The leaders of our govt are accountable the same as the soldiers on the battlefield.

Also, do you think people are really that depraved? the Naked twister, dog intimidation, smearing feces on prisoners are sick acts, done by sick people.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sat May 16, 2009 11:24 pm

I sort of believe in that old advertising slogan "better living through chemistry" or "better interrogations through chemistry". I can't believe that physical torture is actually the most effective method of extracting information; though I can imagine it as an outlet for sadistic individuals that defend it more for their own personal pleasure than it's effectiveness as an information gathering tool.

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun May 17, 2009 6:09 am

just as an aside:
the discussion in the last 3 posts are very informative and entertaining, thanks to all.

*note: I'm not for war, but, am also pragmatic, IMHO*

I think a lot of what is wrong with how wars are fought, is, they're to controlled.........to "sanitary", as such.
Push a button, pull a trigger, key a cell phone......people die, you're not even close.
I'd like to see it back to swords and axes.........the blood and horror.
and, the "leaders" participating, at least on the battlefield to see what happens........

not because I like the carnage, but, because the real impact is there, for all to see, and, experience.
The "romance" (perverse, but, still), is gone. The triumph and tradgedy.
It's all like a video game, except for the unfortunate ones at the receiving end.........and, the few who have to look the loser in the face as their eyes dim........(blessing on them for strength and courage).

we watch it on tv, the leaders watch it on tv, it's clean and sanitary and then we have KFC.

Fuck the rules of Geneva. Make it horrible, gruesome, shocking.
Maybe, then, fewer will be willing to engage..........Sure, some will always be willing to send their finest to die..........but, if they knew, if, they lose, their country and, even themselves, would be in ruin, they might consider other options....and, if not, they are wiped out so as not to do it again........

To believe, let alone require, that every soldier, under extreme and continuing stress, will live up to the code of honor and "hug thine enemy", IMHO, is fantasy.

War, IMHO, should be the last resort, and, for me, should be entered into as a defensive measure, IE: when attacked, or, attack is imminent.
and, if entered into, "play to win".........

But,
Armies are there to kill people and break things......not install water systems and phone lines.
Once/if the enemy is defeated, of course, help those in need.........

Sure, I agree with JK, that pentathol, etc, is IMHO, the best interrogation tool.........but, I'd also bet, it's not available at times, and/or, the issue is too pressing and time sensitive to get...........so, do what you gotta to save our people......terror and fear are part of war.

the only fair fight is the one you win.........if the other guy cheats first and wins, you're still dead............

**yikes, to much espresso, me thinks**

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:37 am

The US soldier does not need to be angry or mad at the enemy. We really don't want to fight. We have a job to do and when it's done we will be going back to the world, back to the US, back to our families.

We don't need to torture, we don't need to do the same thing the enemy does. As a matter of fact because they do those things that is what makes them our enemy.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:45 am

wedeliver wrote:The US soldier does not need to be angry or mad at the enemy. We really don't want to fight. We have a job to do and when it's done we will be going back to the world, back to the US, back to our families.

We don't need to torture, we don't need to do the same thing the enemy does. As a matter of fact because they do those things that is what makes them our enemy.

Interesting use of "We"...........

I agree, there is no "need", but, that does not preclude it's existence........
it does not take away, that, when someone is trying to kill you, you might get mad at them.
it ignores the fact, that, living day to day with the "enemy" trying to kill you, that, you may build resentment towards them, collectively and individually.......

sure, no "need" but, I think it can and does happen.......

"hug your enemy" IMHO, prolongs the suffering...........

again, for clarity:
I don't promote war. I just say, if you must fight, fight to win: make it fast, decisive, and be done..........

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sun May 17, 2009 9:09 am

wedeliver wrote:
Toolmaker wrote:Anyone that feels that torture will not be a part of any war is living in a fantasy world. War is fucked.. PERIOD. There is no such thing as a nice war. There is always gonna be gruesome shit when ppl fight each other.

I mean seriously.. does anyone really believe that ANY country will ignore the STANDARD practices of warfare as they have been for centuries?

While I may think torture is evil and lame as hell I have to be intelligent enough to admit that it is real and will not leave the earth no matter what. People may think what we do now and what has been done in the past is nasty, but you need to look at what the other side does. Us refusing to play the game as its always been played just makes us out to be the losers. Tactically speaking its got to be done. People need to stop with Star Trek and get real. We live in a nasty violent world that will never change.

Everyone is lying when it comes to our government. These little media stunts are just to keep the proles entertained. ANYTHING to keep you from seeing the kids coming home missing limbs so you want to goto DC and protest.

Anyone that thinks that Obama or ANYONE else will stop torture is also delusional. Call me an asshole for sayin it but it is INTEGRAL to WARFARE. PERIOD. In the end torture saves lives with the information thats gained. The best you can hope for is that the troops will stop taking pictures while playing coed naked twister with the pows and lettiong the shit get out. Abu Gharib is NOTHING to whats goin on elsewhere. If ppl really had a clue to whats goin on they'd prolly just off themselves. Waterboarding is NOTHING compared to some of the other options in the book.
Can you explain your experience that gives you this view.

I grew up in the USA and live in the real world not a fantasy one where war is nice and clean. I have also read alot of non-fiction books about warfare and many military manuals and such. I have also seen a fair amount of documentaries about warfare along with footage thats almost never shown on TV. In summation I have dozens of friends and family that are hired killers for the US so we get the oil that we need since Obama doesn't want to stop the madness and go with switchgrass. Previous relatives were hired killers to help out the US with their need for drugs and such to help spin up the US drug war. Previous to Vietnam my relatives were hired killers to get rid of some nasty Japs and Germans that wanted to take over the world, since this is our job we couldn't allow that now could we. Previous to that war my family was in Italy makin shit outta metal, getting drunk on wine, and getting fat on pasta.

wedeliver wrote:The US soldier does not need to be angry or mad at the enemy. We really don't want to fight. We have a job to do and when it's done we will be going back to the world, back to the US, back to our families.

We don't need to torture, we don't need to do the same thing the enemy does. As a matter of fact because they do those things that is what makes them our enemy.

No they just have to be willing to KILL the enemy. You may not want to fight but alot of scout snipers aren't joining for the bake sales. Without torture the enemy will not tell you where the rest of the enemy is hidden. As I said tactically this is just standard SOP in war. And torture is NOT why the Iraqis and Afghanis etc are our enemy. They are our enemy because they have oil we want. Anyone that doesn't realize that is also living in a fantasy world. Obama can stop these wars but he WILL NOT. Obama is a plutocrat, he will continue to enforce the globalist agenda as presidents before him have done. The body count is coming close to 5000 dead and 10s of thousands came home missing limbs. The US is so desparate to wage war and be as violent as they can be they are trying to keep amputees in service.

Check these out

http://www.americantorture.com/

http://www.voltairenet.org/article30111.html

http://ccrjustice.org/get-involved/acti ... eld-manual

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/055.html

http://www.alternet.org/rights/117807/h ... till_does/

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/kubark.htm

Also check out this fellas books..
http://www.navyseals.com/richard-marcinko

http://www.dickmarcinko.com/Bio.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Marcinko

http://worlddefensereview.com/marcinko071505.shtml

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Sun May 17, 2009 9:58 am

There are so many reasons to be against torture. It is demonstrably ineffective, it robs us of any moral standing in the world, it degrades those who do it, and destroys the pride of those who serve honorably. But the number one reason to be against torture is that it is morally wrong.

Most people who are for torture mistakenly and persistently believe that it is effective in extracting hidden information, and therefore justified. The remainder are honest sadists, at least honest to themselves. I don't know which camp Cheney is in, although I have my suspicions.

I have no quarrel with those who believe that war is ugly and vicious. Of course it is. It turns decent men into monsters. But I can't see that as an argument that we should have policies that increase its horror for no gain at all.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun May 17, 2009 1:10 pm

Toolmaker wrote:..............I grew up in the USA and live in the real world not a fantasy one where war is nice and clean. I have also read alot of non-fiction books about warfare and many military manuals and such. I have also seen a fair amount of documentaries about warfare along with footage thats almost never shown on TV. ....
.....
No they just have to be willing to KILL the enemy. You may not want to fight but alot of scout snipers aren't joining for the bake sales. Without torture the enemy will not tell you where the rest of the enemy is hidden.

So in reading your response I guess you have no experience to speak from. Just your armchair. Show me where in your "non-fictiion books about warfare.." they say that torture is effective. In your reading who was selected for torture? Or was everyone tortured? This is kinda torture... Also where did you see this "footage" that isn't shown on TV??

Below is a quote from one of your cites.

"Had anyone asked Dan Coleman, a colleague of Cloonanâ€™s who also had a long history of successfully interrogating terrorist suspects without resorting to the use of torture, it would have been clear that torturing a confession out of al-Libi was a counter-productive exercise."

Most of your cites say that torture doesn't work. Also talk to any seal or special forces person and they will tell you that there is no way they could be tortured to reveal things they wouldn't want to reveal. They would die before they would give up the info. It's part of their training. Also never does any one individual know enough info to do damage. People are kept out of the loop just so they can't give up vital info.

Your example, "Without torture the enemy will not tell you where the rest of the enemy is hidden" is so stupid. So, lets look at this under light, hey guys, joe is missing, he might have been captured by the Americans. He knows where we are hiding, do you think he might tell them? Should we move?"

It appears that the premise that we attacked Iraq, that they had wmd, was information gained through torture and it was not true.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:12 pm

wedeliver wrote:
Toolmaker wrote:..............I grew up in the USA and live in the real world not a fantasy one where war is nice and clean. I have also read alot of non-fiction books about warfare and many military manuals and such. I have also seen a fair amount of documentaries about warfare along with footage thats almost never shown on TV. ....
.....
No they just have to be willing to KILL the enemy. You may not want to fight but alot of scout snipers aren't joining for the bake sales. Without torture the enemy will not tell you where the rest of the enemy is hidden.
So in reading your response I guess you have no experience to speak from. Just your armchair. Show me where in your "non-fictiion books about warfare.." they say that torture is effective. In your reading who was selected for torture? Or was everyone tortured? This is kinda torture... Also where did you see this "footage" that isn't shown on TV??

Below is a quote from one of your cites.

"Had anyone asked Dan Coleman, a colleague of Cloonanâ€™s who also had a long history of successfully interrogating terrorist suspects without resorting to the use of torture, it would have been clear that torturing a confession out of al-Libi was a counter-productive exercise."

Most of your cites say that torture doesn't work. Also talk to any seal or special forces person and they will tell you that there is no way they could be tortured to reveal things they wouldn't want to reveal. They would die before they would give up the info. It's part of their training. Also never does any one individual know enough info to do damage. People are kept out of the loop just so they can't give up vital info.

Your example, "Without torture the enemy will not tell you where the rest of the enemy is hidden" is so stupid. So, lets look at this under light, hey guys, joe is missing, he might have been captured by the Americans. He knows where we are hiding, do you think he might tell them? Should we move?"

It appears that the premise that we attacked Iraq, that they had wmd, was information gained through torture and it was not true.

Plenty of experience.. just that the details of my personal experiences are none of your business. Neither are the experiences of anyone I know.

But keep in mind I am against torture and war. I am just pointing out facts as I see them. Consider this.. how long do you think you would last under questioning with torture? You found one cite somewhere that says its not effective. I call bullshit on the other 98 percent of effective torture cases. I will cite the Inquisition.. mostly everyone tortures admitted to what they were accused of whether true or false just to get death as an escape from the torture. Torture is SOO EFFECTIVE we train our own operators (SERE) and many non spec ops folk with certain jobs just so they can resist it some more. One site that shows questionable stuff was liveleak.com.. there are also many website hosted by mujahadeen, al-qaeda, muslim, and sympatizers that show video. You only have to look and run the risk of a flag on yourself. I recommend searching on the internet to be done using someone elses wireless access point. Torture is NOT new.. we have been using it as standrard practice in our military back to the wind up radio days. You know.. back when they would wire up a guys nuts and turn the crank for electrocution. Even with SERE training many folks eventually give up the intelligence thats requested. You claim that nobody knows anything of value is an utter crock of shit. No offense but seriously.. any small piece of information can cause damage to the other side. This is why America uses it so much. Why do you think we are toruring so many Iraqis? For fun? NO.. for information. It doesn't matter that most of the civilians don't know squat worth a damn. Its that one insurgent that knows the rest of his cell is hiding that will stop a few more IEDs from blowing our kids up. See the ticking bomb arguement many govt. people use to justify torture. Its a good one that gets alot of people to say YEAH go ahead and torture, its OK since you're just trying to save millions. Even better look at how torture is portrayed so often in our TV shows and movies with great success. Shows like 24 and some cop shows show torture as an effective means. All Jack Bauer has to do is smack someone around while their tied up and they give up the information. This is used to de-sensitize the population of the US BTW. Just in case anyone was wondering why we seem to be promoting torture in alot of TV shows these days. Its just to get you used to it so you don't think its a big deal.

Why you keep promoting this BS about WMDs is really disturbing. I thought you had to intelligence to know that we are at war with Iraq because of religion and oil. As long as people like you believe that American foreign policy in the middle east over the past number of decades is about WMDs and such the more power the corporations have over the rest of us.

Point being that torture and war suck but they are things that will not change. As long as Americans keep buying things from oil like fuel, plastics, clothing etc than you will need to wage war to make sure you get your supply. There is no way we can stop the powers that be. Look what voting for Obama got us.. yet another rubber stamp leader like bush, clinton, bush sr etc etc. Nothing changes except for the scandal of the week. Pelosi and any other politician or American with a TV for that matter know about the disgusting side of war including but not limited to torture. We have established a long track record of using torture and sadly I do not see that changing.

If anyone doubts the effectiveness of torture and just can't seem to learn from history of the world in the past couple hundred years I suggest trying it out. I saw a youtube video of a home invader that claims great success with torture to get safe combinations and ATM pin codes. He usually ties his victim up and jams a large knife in their thigh twisting it until he gets the information he wants. Something tells me it works most of the time. I think I would likely give up my pin code or safe combo, not really into jamming a rambo knife in my leg to test it out. I will bet money if someone else thinks they can handle it.

PS try reading something not on the internet sometime. Maybe you'll see that torture is real and happens. The kind of warfare you imagine us doing just isn't real brother. I really hope you aren't living in the fantasy land you would have us think by your posts. Considering your age I would think you remember Vietnam.. or even Abu Gharib which was far more recent.

You want to see some street level crime torture theres a movie called Jacking 101 by Jiggaboo Jones out of Los Angeles. He does a home invasion on camera where he gets information from someone using torture.

http://www.jiggaboojones.com/jiggaboojo ... kin101.htm

I don't need to watch the movie since I've seen enough torture first hand and been victimized myself. Lucky for me I was only ever tortured by police officers.. they aren't quite as good as the military folk.

[youtube][/youtube]

2 mins in gets interesting..

He has some interesting ideas on fixing the economy here.

[youtube][/youtube]

But I digress.. back to torture..

Try the AP youtube channel for stuff like this..

you know Associated Press right?

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

That last one is kinda funny. Some say having foreign invaders in your country for no valid reason shooting up your neighborhoods in sort of torture when its been going on for years. I know a kid in Iraq thats afraid to go outside, hes not a criminal, just someone that lives in country that the US wants to control for their oil. He like other regular folk in Iraq are on youtube and the internet sharing their stories. You only have to google or search youtube to find the videos that your news feel are not important.

Hey we even torture animals in our own country.

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

It could also be argued that putting someone on death row waiting to die for over a decade is torture. Can you imagine.. guilty or not.. waiting in a room the size of a bathroom for the rest of your life for over 10 years waiting to die.

I think the CIA is a bunch of scumbags.. I think the wars we wage are bullshit.. I think every politician knows it and just doesn't give a fuck. They are our entertainers and most of us are too programmed to stray from the entertainment and try to effect change.

At least there are some people using biodiesel. At least some poeple stop buying from China. At least some don't use plastic or other shit from oil anymore. I wish we all could. I would if I could afford it.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:19 pm

dr.placebo wrote:There are so many reasons to be against torture. It is demonstrably ineffective, it robs us of any moral standing in the world, it degrades those who do it, and destroys the pride of those who serve honorably. But the number one reason to be against torture is that it is morally wrong.

Most people who are for torture mistakenly and persistently believe that it is effective in extracting hidden information, and therefore justified. The remainder are honest sadists, at least honest to themselves. I don't know which camp Cheney is in, although I have my suspicions.

I have no quarrel with those who believe that war is ugly and vicious. Of course it is. It turns decent men into monsters. But I can't see that as an argument that we should have policies that increase its horror for no gain at all.

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the part about being able to demonstrate ineffectiveness. I thought the Spanish Inquisition showed that it was really effective. Not that I dig torture mind you.. I hate it.. but maybe I just read to friggin much. I really got to start back on the Star Wars books, especially since I have the Republic Commando books. I wonder if there is any torture in there used by Palpatine. I would guess so.. the Empire is pretty nasty.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:22 pm

Toolmaker wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:There are so many reasons to be against torture. It is demonstrably ineffective, it robs us of any moral standing in the world, it degrades those who do it, and destroys the pride of those who serve honorably. But the number one reason to be against torture is that it is morally wrong.

Most people who are for torture mistakenly and persistently believe that it is effective in extracting hidden information, and therefore justified. The remainder are honest sadists, at least honest to themselves. I don't know which camp Cheney is in, although I have my suspicions.

I have no quarrel with those who believe that war is ugly and vicious. Of course it is. It turns decent men into monsters. But I can't see that as an argument that we should have policies that increase its horror for no gain at all.
I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the part about being able to demonstrate ineffectiveness. I thought the Spanish Inquisition showed that it was really effective.

That's funny. I thought that what Torquemada and his crew taught us is that torture is most effective at making people lie to please you and make it stop, and that 500 years later your name is still stained with blood.

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:25 pm

If I was tortured, I would tell them anything they wanted to hear, I could be very creative and detailed.

Lots of information and effort above. You sound like you have some kind of personal investment in torture, you sure go to a lot of work defending it and its effectiveness.

Here was a old style method of torture, I think anyone would say anything.

a cage, the cage has two levels. the cage is strapped on the belly of the person to be tortured, they are also strapped down on a table. The lower level of the cage holds a rat, the upper level of the cage holds a fire (its a burning man kinda thing). so the way it works.. is a fire is lit, the rat tries to get away, the only way out is through the persons belly.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:28 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Toolmaker wrote:
dr.placebo wrote:There are so many reasons to be against torture. It is demonstrably ineffective, it robs us of any moral standing in the world, it degrades those who do it, and destroys the pride of those who serve honorably. But the number one reason to be against torture is that it is morally wrong.

Most people who are for torture mistakenly and persistently believe that it is effective in extracting hidden information, and therefore justified. The remainder are honest sadists, at least honest to themselves. I don't know which camp Cheney is in, although I have my suspicions.

I have no quarrel with those who believe that war is ugly and vicious. Of course it is. It turns decent men into monsters. But I can't see that as an argument that we should have policies that increase its horror for no gain at all.
I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the part about being able to demonstrate ineffectiveness. I thought the Spanish Inquisition showed that it was really effective.
That's funny. I thought that what Torquemada and his crew taught us is that torture is most effective at making people lie to please you and make it stop, and that 500 years later your name is still stained with blood.

INDEED.. but who says that wasn't his goal? Same goes with confessions with police here in the US. I don't think they care that the person is lying to stop the torture. The end result is whats achieved.. a signed confession.

If I get drunk enough at Burningman maybe I will let someone torture me in Apoks chair for real. I think I wouldn't last long though. Unless it was the "torture" they use normally.. than I might like it.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:30 pm

wedeliver wrote:If I was tortured, I would tell them anything they wanted to hear, I could be very creative and detailed.

Lots of information and effort above. You sound like you have some kind of personal investment in torture, you sure go to a lot of work defending it and its effectiveness.

I do. After seeing what its done to family member I feel the need to "correct" folks like you when they feign ignorance of the world we live in and how our standard of living is obtained.

Hey no biggie.. its just the internet. I'm sure the VA will do a bang up job with my cousin after he comes home and no longer has to torture people in other countries so Obama can try to save the economy with more war. Hopefully he won't be too fucked up, my uncle never did get his shit together after Vietnam. But hey.. its their fault right. They should have refused the orders and wound up a casaulty in an "accident" somewhere.

Pelosi vs. the CIA--Who's really lying?

Pelosi vs. the CIA--Who's really lying?

Re: Pelosi vs. the CIA--Who's really lying?