israel, judaism, jews and zionism

[DVD Burner]

Actually, I dont know why I ask the question.

I dont really expect to get an answer.

I only expect to get friction when those that have anything negative to say about what I post have not their facts straight.


so


Never mind.

[DVD Burner]

[can't sit still]

Peace,,,, or else !!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 262080.ece
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -says.html

[DVD Burner]

Israel does not want peace.

Just the way it is.

[Marscrumbs]

this whole problem of Israel could have been avoided if after WWII we'd had given them New Jersy instead.

[can't sit still]

I don't think that the MOB would have been happy with that.
As DVD says, Israel doesn't want peace. They like the idea of peace but, they have made so many enemies over the last couple thousand years that, they can't relax.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, a jewish professor said that israel's nukes could reach Rome. It's hard to imagine any other target in Rome besides the Pope. If the jews continue to throw around veiled threats like that, nobody will trust them.
The jews claim to be so smart,,, and they are. Why don't they learn from the Chinese? The Chinese consider themselves to be the master race. They're planning on taking over the world by absorption.

[DVD Burner]

Obama, Netanyahu to tackle Mideast issues




By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writer – 13 mins ago

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090518/ap_ ... _us_israel

WASHINGTON – Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is signaling he may resist President Barack Obama's pressure to support Palestinian statehood as the two leaders try to tackle an array of Mideast issues Monday on which they disagree.

A senior aide to Netanyahu, national security adviser Uzi Arad, suggested the Israeli leader might not yield to pressure from Obama for a two-state solution to the Middle East conflict. He also seemed to hint that Israel might consider military action against Iran when he said there was a "sense of urgency" in Israel over the Iranian nuclear threat.

Such rhetoric suggests diplomatic high stakes as the two men hold their first White House meeting against a backdrop of disagreement over several key issues: U.S. overtures to once-shunned Iran and Syria and pressure on Israel to support a Palestinian state.

The Obama administration is trying to promote dialogue with Iran and Syria, Israel's arch foes. Israel fears such efforts could lead to greater tolerance for Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Prior to Netanyahu's trip, confidant Zalman Shoval, a former ambassador to the United States, said the Israeli leader would ask the Americans to give Iran a deadline of "a very few months" to comply with international demands to halt its enrichment of uranium — a process that can be used to build nuclear bombs.

"If by then we have not reached an agreement with you, all other options are still on the table," Shoval added in a clear allusion to a military strike.

Before his Feb. 10 election, Netanyahu derided the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, which stalled late last year, as a waste of time.

Jewish settlement activity is another source of potential conflict with the United States.

In Israel on Monday, settlers announced that government officials have begun taking bids to build infrastructure for a fledgling Jewish community deep in the West Bank. The timing of the announcement could cause friction at the Obama-Netanyahu meeting.

Palestinians want Obama to tell the Israelis that they have obligations under an existing U.S.-backed peace plan to accept the two-state solution and stop settlement construction, said Saeb Erekat, a top aide to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and longtime negotiator.

While not opposing the Obama administration's efforts to promote dialogue with Iran and Syria, Israel is skeptical. Like Washington, it dismisses Tehran's claims that its nuclear program is peaceful and fears the U.S. outreach could lead to greater tolerance for Iran's nuclear ambitions. The Israelis are also worried by the recent diplomatic shuttles to Syria for fear they reward Damascus even as it maintains close ties to Tehran and harbors Iranian proxies that have warred with Israel, Lebanon's Hezbollah and Gaza's Hamas.

Still, there have been mixed signals from the Israelis on the Mideast peace process ahead of the Obama-Netanyahu meeting.

Israel's president, Shimon Peres, said Sunday in Jordan that Netanyahu would abide by agreements signed by his predecessors, including the U.S.-backed Mideast peace plan calling for a two-state solution to the conflict with Palestinians. Peres said progress depended on an end to attacks by Hamas militants and greater Palestinian efforts to ensure Israel's security.

Netanyahu has tried to persuade the Americans that Iran, with its nuclear ambitions and anti-Israel proxies in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon, must be reined in before peacemaking with the Palestinians can progress. Israel's security services see the Netanyahu-Obama meeting as crucial in this regard, and the military chief of staff, the head of military intelligence and the Mossad chief all held lengthy meetings with the prime minister ahead of the trip, defense officials said.

The meetings focused on what Israel sees as Iran's attempt to develop nuclear weapons and on the effect that would have in strengthening Iran's allies in Hamas and Hezbollah and undermining the stability of Western-allied Arab countries.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the meetings were not made public.

[can't sit still]

"Netanyahu would abide by agreements signed by his predecessors" They've never aboded by shit! Why start now? Even if the leaders were to abide by agreements, the settlers would ignore all proscriptions against stealing land. In the end, I doubt that netanyahu will take up arms against the settlers. It ain't going to be easy.

israel continues to scream about nukes in iran. All they need to do is agree to have the IAEC monitor the uranium production. Either the iranians are producing 98% weapns grade U-238 or they are producine 3 % enrichment grade for reactor rods. If they audit the "yellowcake" entering the country, the IAEC will know exactly how much yield there should be. It's not at all difficult to be completely sure what they are producing.
They're demanding sanctions just to starve out Iran and cause a revolution. Wouldn't that be great. Then, the mullahs would have control of the huge stocks of biological weapons that Iran produced with the help of Russia. Too many morons in the area.

[Marscrumbs]

I don't think that the MOB would have been happy with that.
As DVD says, Israel doesn't want peace. They like the idea of peace but, they have made so many enemies over the last couple thousand years that, they can't relax.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, a jewish professor said that israel's nukes could reach Rome. It's hard to imagine any other target in Rome besides the Pope. If the jews continue to throw around veiled threats like that, nobody will trust them.
The jews claim to be so smart,,, and they are. Why don't they learn from the Chinese? The Chinese consider themselves to be the master race. They're planning on taking over the world by absorption.

Not much difference between a Scillian mother and a Jewish mother. Both are matriarcal culture.

Chinese and Israel 4000 years or so of history. 1.3billion verses 6million. That tells you something about evolution here.

[DVD Burner]

Never Forget!

[DVD Burner]

Netanyahu backs out on planned visit to French capital next week

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull


By JPOST.COM STAFF

May 26, 2009 22:16 | Updated May 26, 2009 22:42

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu cancelled a meeting with French President Nicholas Sarkozy scheduled for next week, reportedly amid anger at France for its position on the final status of Jerusalem.
Additionally, sources in the Prime Minister's Office said that Netanyahu wanted to distance his recent - and highly publicized - meeting with US President Barack Obama from his relations with European countries.

A PMO official confirmed that Netanyahu postponed his European trip because he believed preparations for the visit were incomplete.

But statements released by the French Foreign Ministry provided an alternative reason for the cancellation. Ministry spokesman Frederic Desagneaux said "The declaration which the Israeli prime minister issued yesterday derives from prejudice regarding the final status agreement," referring to Netanyahu's pledge on Jerusalem Day, last week, that Jerusalem would "never again be divided or partitioned."

"In the eyes of France," Desagneaux said, "Jerusalem needs to turn into a capital for two states," emphasizing that French President Sarkozy made the same point last year.

"Activities like destroying Palestinian houses and expulsion of Arab citizens encourage violence," the spokesperson said. "They are unacceptable, and against international law."

During an official state ceremony marking Jerusalem Day on Thursday, Netanyahu had vowed that the capital would never again be divided. "Jerusalem was always ours and will always be ours. It will never again be partitioned and divided," he said while marking the reunification of the city during the Six-Day War 42 years ago.

"Only under Israeli sovereignty will united Jerusalem ensure the freedom of religion and freedom of access for the three religions to the holy places," Netanyahu added.

In an earlier address, President Shimon Peres said that Jerusalem, while sacred to others, is the only capital Israel and the Jewish people have ever known.

"Jerusalem is held sacred by half of mankind [but] it has been and always will be Israel's capital. We never had another and it has never been the capital of any other people."

[DVD Burner]

Israel scrambles to avoid showdown with Obama

By KARIN LAUB – 2 hours ago

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD98E2H9G0

MAALEH ADUMIM, West Bank (AP) — Israel scrambled Tuesday to sidestep President Barack Obama's demand for a West Bank settlement freeze with a diluted counteroffer to Washington.

But Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's compromise — to take down some squatter camps in exchange for permission to keep building in established settlements — was quickly rejected by hard-liners in his own coalition.

The dispute underscored Netanyahu's difficult juggling act. He's trying to avert a crisis with the U.S. over settlements, while keeping his pro-settlement governing coalition intact and forging ahead with construction, such as the rows of apartment blocks going up in this rapidly expanding Israeli city in the West Bank.

However, Obama and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton have spoken in recent days about halting all settlement activity without exception, suggesting Netanyahu may have little room to bargain.

Also, the 2003 "roadmap" for peace negotiations, which Israel accepted, bans all construction in settlements and orders the removal of the outposts.

Cutting a deal with Israel on settlements could also hurt Obama's credibility and key policy goals, including improving U.S. relations with the Arab world and moving toward the creation of a Palestinian state in a Mideast peace deal. There was no immediate reaction from Washington.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is putting settlements at the center of his talks with Obama at the White House on Thursday, and has said he won't resume peace talks without a freeze.

Without a moratorium on settlements, Obama could also have a tough time persuading Arab countries to take his suggestion and begin moving toward normalizing relations with Israel.

Continued construction could also close the door to a two-state solution, defined by Obama as a key U.S. interest. Nearly half a million Israelis have moved into homes built during the last four decades on land the Palestinians want for their state.

However, some supporters of a two-state solution argue that Obama is wasting political capital on the interim step of a freeze, and should focus on getting quickly to a peace deal that would determine the fate of the settlements by drawing Israel's permanent borders.

The U.S. has long criticized settlements as obstacles to peace but never succeeded in getting Israel to halt construction, which continued even during periods of peace negotiations. More than 3,200 apartments were being built in the West Bank in 2008, and the Israeli settlement monitor Peace Now says 6,000 more units are in various stages of planning.

Currently, nearly 300,000 Israelis live in the West Bank, in addition to some 180,000 in east Jerusalem, the Palestinians' would-be capital.

Maaleh Adumim, near Jerusalem, has grown from a hilltop outpost in 1975 into a city of 35,000, complete with shopping mall and industrial zone.

At a sprawling construction site on the settlement's eastern edge, laborers erected scaffolding on a recent morning, with the pounding of hammers echoing across the Judean Desert.

Apartment sales are brisk, said an employee in an on-site sales office, adding that five contractors have projects in Maaleh Adumim with hundreds of units going up.

One contractor, Electra Construction, is building 52 apartments. Israela Peer, a customer service representative, said nearly all have been sold, at 1.1 million shekels — about $275,000 — for a five-room apartment. That is $50,000 less than a comparable property in central Israel.

Successive Israeli governments have said they need to keep building to accommodate "natural growth" for families to have children or for the adult offspring of settlers to buy homes near their parents.

"If in a certain community there are another 14 kids next year of kindergarten age and we have to open them a new kindergarten — what's the big deal?" Defense Minister Ehud Barak said this week.

Such arguments may not go over well with the Americans. In a TV interview, Clinton specifically said the U.S. opposes construction for "natural growth."

Netanyahu and Barak came up with their counter proposal in recent days, according to Israeli officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to brief reporters.

Their plan is to promise to dismantle 22 wildcat settler outposts over the next few weeks, in exchange for the U.S. dropping its demand for a freeze, the officials said. Barak is to present the idea in Washington next week.

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman dismissed Netanyahu's proposal Tuesday, saying Israel should not take any action until it has devised a comprehensive plan for tackling its problems with its neighbors.

"I promise you, no outposts will be dismantled tomorrow, and not two weeks from now," he told Army Radio.

Settler leader Dani Dayan said he believes Netanyahu can be deterred from dismantling most outposts and warned that a freeze would bring down the government.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[DVD Burner]

[youtube][/youtube]

[DVD Burner]

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

[DVD Burner]

Israel Hopes for U.S. Settlement Shift

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/world ... t.html?hpw

Article Tools Sponsored By
By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: May 27, 2009

JERUSALEM — The Israeli government wants to reach understandings with the Obama administration that would allow some new construction in West Bank settlements, an Israeli official said Wednesday, despite vocal American and Palestinian opposition.

The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, was expected to focus on the issue of settlement expansion in his meeting with President Obama in their meeting scheduled for Thursday in Washington. Mr. Abbas and other Palestinian leaders have stated repeatedly that they see no point in resuming stalled peace negotiations without an absolute settlement freeze.

President Barack Obama and other senior American officials have called on the government of Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the right-wing Likud Party who came into office almost two months ago, to halt all settlement activity.

Dan Meridor, the Israeli minister of intelligence, and other senior Netanyahu aides returned on Wednesday from meetings in Europe with President Obama’s Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, and other American officials. The purpose was to continue discussing issues raised in last week’s Netanyahu-Obama meeting, including that Mr. Obama’s objections to settlement expansion.

Almost 300,000 Israelis now live in settlements in the West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, among a Palestinian population of some 2.5 million. Much of the world considers the 120 or so settlements a violation of international law.

Mr. Netanyahu says that his government will not build any new settlements and will take down a number of outposts erected in recent years by settlers without proper government authorization. But he insists that his government will allow building within existing settlements to accommodate what he termed “natural growth,â€

[can't sit still]

It's a sad situation all around in Palestine. It's a political football that's being kicked around by everyone. Other Arab countries send money,,, the people have kids,,, the football gets bigger.

Medicine and food production have lowered the infant mortality rate. Some cultures have responded by lowering their birth rate and some have not. There isn't a happy ending in sight.

[ourania]

I don't even know where to begin with this thread. I've come across it a few times, but resisted the temptation to read, as I was pretty sure I knew what I'd find here. Wow, was I right. A lot of very impassioned opinions about complex history, politics, religion and human stupidity: some more informed than others. Isn't all of this part of the default reality many of us are trying to move away from? What is the point of arguing ad nauseum where fault/blame lie and how retribution should best be meted out? There isn't a single nation on the planet that doesn't have blood on it's collective hands. At some point in their histories, all peoples have been in turn tortured and torturers both. It is the height of human hypocrisy to perpetuate these conflicts in a futile game of who's more guilty. ALL of us play a continuing role in the subjugation of others. Only by recognizing our own culpability and collectively deciding not to participate in an inherently inequitable world economic/political system, can we begin to move out of our current clusterfuck. And if we continue to squabble over the finer points of who did what first, to whom and how bad was it, we are doomed.....and it ain't gonna be pretty folks. Either we will change the way we think about/relate to/treat each other and the planet or we, as a species, will die. Period.

[joel the ornery]

take responsibility for our own actions?

What an absurd notion.

[can't sit still]

Ourania, You're quite correct. "/treat each other and the planet " It all begins with reproduction.
There's nothing wrong with assigning blame if it results in better future decisions.

[DVD Burner]

Israeli police shut Palestinian literature festival in East Jerusalem

By Reuters

Last update - 04:51 29/05/2009

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1088955.html

Israeli police shut down a Palestinian theatre in East Jerusalem on Thursday, forcing foreign writers taking part in an international literature festival to move elsewhere for the second time in a week.

The police action was the latest in recent weeks against what Israel sees as attempts by the Palestinian Authority to host political activities in the city, where both sides in the conflict have staked claims to have their national capital.

Organizers and guests voiced disappointment at the treatment of what they said was a cultural, not a political, event.
Advertisement
"All cultural events which take place in areas of contention have political undertones," British writer Jeremy Harding said at the theatre after police moved in. "Talking about what literature is and what it means in a fraught political situation is the most honest thing we can do. They didn't like that."

Police ordered the assembled authors and the audience for the closing event of the 6-day Palestine Festival of Literature to leave before a reading at the Palestinian National Theatre.

Saturday's opening event at the theatre was also shut down.

A police notice declared a closure on the orders of Israel's internal security minister on the grounds of a breach of interim peace accords from the 1990s. These laid the framework for talks on establishing a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but left
the status of Jerusalem to be determined by further negotiation.


Israel says the entire city is and always will be its capital, a point stressed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last week on the 42nd anniversary of Israel's capture of Arab East Jerusalem.

For their part, Palestinians want their capital to be in the city.

Since a February election that brought the right-wing Likud leader to power, Israeli authorities have also banned events marking Jerusalem becoming the Arab League's Capital of Arab Culture for 2009 and closed down a media centre set up in East Jerusalem for this month's visit to the city by Pope Benedict.

Palestinians, who make up about a third of the population of Israel's municipality of Jerusalem, complain of a campaign to drive them out.

Israeli officials deny any discrimination in policies that range from the demolition of homes built without permits to the provision of municipal services in Arab areas.
Amal Nashashibi, attending the literature festival, said: "Because of the drive to make the city purely Jewish, they're trying to black out anything that is related to Arab culture."

Dozens of people moved quietly from the theatre to the nearby British Council, one of the sponsors of the festival.

In its second edition, it lists among its patrons the late Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish and British playwright Harold Pinter. Both Pinter, who was Jewish, and Darwish were known as critics of Israeli policy. Both died in the past year.

[DVD Burner]

yeah well, I still say fuck Israel.

[can't sit still]

This is an Aussie paper;
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... %2C00.html
Jewish mobs rampage West Bank
,,,,,, " Three army patrol vehicles at a nearby junction stood by and did not intervene to stop the violence, but they prevented a Palestinian firetruck from reaching the field. "
That pretty much sums it up.

[DVD Burner]

Israel troops admit Gaza abuses


An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.

The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.

The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.

"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.

"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.

One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.

Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

'Moral army'

The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.

The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.

[DVD Burner]

Fuck Israel and those that defend it!

There is no "wrong on both sides".

The people of Israel are fucked in the head.

Period!

[Elderberry]

I don't even know where to begin with this thread. I've come across it a few times, but resisted the temptation to read, as I was pretty sure I knew what I'd find here. Wow, was I right. A lot of very impassioned opinions about complex history, politics, religion and human stupidity: some more informed than others. Isn't all of this part of the default reality many of us are trying to move away from? What is the point of arguing ad nauseum where fault/blame lie and how retribution should best be meted out? There isn't a single nation on the planet that doesn't have blood on it's collective hands. At some point in their histories, all peoples have been in turn tortured and torturers both. It is the height of human hypocrisy to perpetuate these conflicts in a futile game of who's more guilty. ALL of us play a continuing role in the subjugation of others. Only by recognizing our own culpability and collectively deciding not to participate in an inherently inequitable world economic/political system, can we begin to move out of our current clusterfuck. And if we continue to squabble over the finer points of who did what first, to whom and how bad was it, we are doomed.....and it ain't gonna be pretty folks. Either we will change the way we think about/relate to/treat each other and the planet or we, as a species, will die. Period.

You are exhibiting way too much common sense and reasoned logic for this thread. Now go away.

JK

[can't sit still]

Ourania wrote; " . Isn't all of this part of the default reality many of us are trying to move away from? "
jkisha wrote; " too much common sense and reasoned logic"

If you'all think that moving away from the sad reality of the default world is logical,,,, you're lost. Recall the movie Fidler on the Roof. When Topol asks the rabbi if they should worry about the pogroms against the jews, the rabbi replies that Anatevka is so far from the problem that they don't have to worry.
You might put the default world in abeyance at burning man but, it does control our lives.
You might not care that Netanyahu is a rabid dog but, if he attacks Iran, you will definitely start to pay attention. With the closure of the Straights of Hormuz and the release of thousands of biological weapons, the default world will come straight to your door.
Dan

[DVD Burner]

[youtube][/youtube]

[DVD Burner]

Ourania wrote; " . Isn't all of this part of the default reality many of us are trying to move away from? "
jkisha wrote; " too much common sense and reasoned logic"

If you'all think that moving away from the sad reality of the default world is logical,,,, you're lost. Recall the movie Fidler on the Roof. When Topol asks the rabbi if they should worry about the pogroms against the jews, the rabbi replies that Anatevka is so far from the problem that they don't have to worry.
You might put the default world in abeyance at burning man but, it does control our lives.
You might not care that Netanyahu is a rabid dog but, if he attacks Iran, you will definitely start to pay attention. With the closure of the Straights of Hormuz and the release of thousands of biological weapons, the default world will come straight to your door.
Dan

BINGO!

Eventually and inevitably the default world invades when ignored.

[EvilDustBooger]

"Peace" in the Middle-East is a numbers game.
It`s success depends on what percentage of the population at any given time wants to play along.
Living in peace is a personal and collective choice.
There will always be those that want war for various reasons.
The human diversity that renews and sustains mankind also has the potential for great destruction.
I for one, am thankful that most of the collective choose to live in peace.
The problem lies in rounding up or convincing the stragglers with extreme positions to play nice.(like DVD)

[Simon of the Playa]