Survival

[unjonharley]

I'm glad you poked it, too.
Yes, it is good to teach the young to be self sufficient, I agree.

I'd wonder:
if the air is so bad it will screw up the vegetables you might eat, how the hell will you be able to breathe?.....just sayin'.......or drink the water?
the thing about the NW, is, although there is lots of water, since most sources there are surface water, depending on the contaminants, it can get screwed up pretty fast.......even shallow water source wells and tables can get "dirty"..........It seems I remember the Achilles heal of the NW is water storage.....that, with all the water, there isn't a ton of storage available. Is that true?
A deep well might be in order........

outside of water, wind, solar power, to me, the key is propane.
It doesn't get old or go bad. pumps it'self. With new heaters, it's 99.9% (IIRC) efficient, no CO off gassing.
It can run engines, cook food, heat water, emergency freeze something, etc, etc.

this discounts any fuel you can produce (methane, producer gas), or harvest, like firewood or grass or whatever......

Skills and knowledge are at least as important as "stuff"..........if you can work basic metals, you can make any tool you might need.....

Same with healthcare. Knowing the basics can be better than a cabinet full of valium...........and, with some chemistry.....well.......

the Foxfire books are great. no CD's, books, that can be read by candle if necessary.

mostly, staying put is best. you know the area, know your neighbors, can cooperate much better for the benefit of all. If you must "bug out", degrees of travel and equipment, like layers, is good.
a backpack with basics and firearms for a quick escape, up to a 10wheel drive, multi fuel cargo truck and trailer, if you have time to pack........
Diesel engines run on more things than gasoline engines...improvised fuels are easier........

just some thoughts........

For breathing I use a Cpap 12/110v at night now. It could be used in the day time.. But that takes watts.. So this is something to look at..

I have a cabinet full of growing vegg. It produces the air I need. Could I tent off the cabinet room inside the house? No, just retro fit the panic room..

Water?? With square foot indoors gardening you need only small amounts of water. Some of this can be recaptured in a closed area as with gray waters.

Drawing on a 1940's army servival book simple evap system. Tub of water sealed with oilcloth (now plastice sheet) Float a cantainer in center of tub of water. apply sheet, place stone in center of sheet (so droplets will run down) and warm the the tub/water. Vapor to the inside of the sheet, become heavy and runs down to lowest point and drops into foating catch container.

That big trunk needs air too.. Lots people walked across the country..

The Rocket Stove mentioned in an earlyer post.. It works like a blow torch and only uses trigs for small fast hot. It could run a Green Steam steam engine.

[ygmir]

I'm sure there's a formula somewhere, but, I think it'd take a lot of indoor plants to produce the air you need..............

yes, I agree with the evap/condense to clean water.
what, with a closed system as you describe, you have to be careful of is the bacteria, etc, in the tub of water, if, you're going to drink it.
I'd still sterilize it after collection from the oilskin...........but, it will clarify it well.

yup, big trucks need air...........dirty air is ok for them, fuel is the weak spot.
ergo, my choice of "muti-fuel engine. It'll run on anything flammable and liquid, with few exceptions. Better on some than others, but, still run. even propane can run a diesel if bled into the intake airstream.

There is a line between "great idea" and "practical" that, I at least, am always straddling......... lots of things can't be both.

[unjonharley]

I'm sure there's a formula somewhere, but, I think it'd take a lot of indoor plants to produce the air you need..............

yes, I agree with the evap/condense to clean water.
what, with a closed system as you describe, you have to be careful of is the bacteria, etc, in the tub of water, if, you're going to drink it.
I'd still sterilize it after collection from the oilskin...........but, it will clarify it well.

yup, big trucks need air...........dirty air is ok for them, fuel is the weak spot.
ergo, my choice of "muti-fuel engine. It'll run on anything flammable and liquid, with few exceptions. Better on some than others, but, still run. even propane can run a diesel if bled into the intake airstream.

There is a line between "great idea" and "practical" that, I at least, am always straddling......... lots of things can't be both.

I kept the trucks and digers running for a potato havest one year. WE used oil bath air filters.. Each night I would "dig" the oil/dirt out with a stick..

I was walking when the ash storm from St Helen hit. Then a little rain. Makes playacret look like play dough. Some good people gave me a ride home.

I do have 5gal of bleach on hand for water and other treatments. Natrual light removes bleach from water. Also UV rays can make clear/evaped water safe.

Keep the "but's" coming. I need to fuel me brain. Rework the panic room.

[ygmir]

you might also consider iodine for water disinfection: it provides a necessary nutrient, and, helps, if necessary, avoid radioactive thyroid problems.
There are lots of great, cheap preparations available at farm supply places.....I buy the 7-10% iodine (normal is, IIRC, 2%). great disinfectant, and, can be diluted for other use. It's super strong that way, will literally burn sensitive skin and membranes, but, a lot of "bang for the buck" in that strength.

UV from the sun can take quite a while to disinfect water......and, then, the algae love it......unless you're talking a hand held type UV light source.

of course, the lowest tech is boil and seal.

I'm not trying to be contrary, just, adding my thoughts to yours.......

[SilverOrange]

So you guys have reactivated the survivalist portion of my brain and gotter me thinking. I've lived in the country for the last ten years and now find myself living in a city of about 250 thousand. My question for you is, if there was a sudden event like total grid collapse , natural disaster, or unnatural disaster, do you, and when do you, get the fuck out of dodge? My natural reaction would be to get out of the city immediately just because I've been a country boy a lot more of my life than I haven't. It's a setting that I'm really comfortable with and feel that I could provide for myself fairly easily. I've had a BOB for years and could be gone really quickly. Do you think it would be better to get out immediately before peoples cupboards started getting empty or just hole up and try to wait out the initial mayhem?

[Ugly Dougly]

Also a worm farm to make more plant food.

Seems like that extra step is unnecessary.

[unjonharley]

you might also consider iodine for water disinfection: it provides a necessary nutrient, and, helps, if necessary, avoid radioactive thyroid problems.
There are lots of great, cheap preparations available at farm supply places.....I buy the 7-10% iodine (normal is, IIRC, 2%). great disinfectant, and, can be diluted for other use. It's super strong that way, will literally burn sensitive skin and membranes, but, a lot of "bang for the buck" in that strength.

UV from the sun can take quite a while to disinfect water......and, then, the algae love it......unless you're talking a hand held type UV light source.

of course, the lowest tech is boil and seal.

I'm not trying to be contrary, just, adding my thoughts to yours.......

As stated. keep the thoughts coming.. We learn from one another.

Iodine is not med cabinet standby anymore. It burn and scares. But I would use it in a flash if needed.

I can produce UV w/12v after evap and bleach treatment. IOdine could be another step in water treatment.

Bringing it up a notch.. I'm working in the 12 volt area. At the same time trying to keep that low tec. So it is simple and repiarable.

[unjonharley]

Also a worm farm to make more plant food.

Seems like that extra step is unnecessary.

Everything here is fed worm casting. 25 different rose. two apple, cherry, berries, some nut and trees & shrub. The lawn is over run with night crowlers. Eveything that is cut or pulled is composted. It's how to get rid of your unwanted and reuse it in another form.

[Ugly Dougly]

I planted a veggie garden most dutifully. But then I realized I don't eat veggies much. I'll be getting a fine crop of jalapenos and shiso for sushi. I should raise bunnies, huh?

[unjonharley]

So you guys have reactivated the survivalist portion of my brain and gotter me thinking. I've lived in the country for the last ten years and now find myself living in a city of about 250 thousand. My question for you is, if there was a sudden event like total grid collapse , natural disaster, or unnatural disaster, do you, and when do you, get the fuck out of dodge? My natural reaction would be to get out of the city immediately just because I've been a country boy a lot more of my life than I haven't. It's a setting that I'm really comfortable with and feel that I could provide for myself fairly easily. I've had a BOB for years and could be gone really quickly. Do you think it would be better to get out immediately before peoples cupboards started getting empty or just hole up and try to wait out the initial mayhem?

How much effort can you put into relocateing? Do you have plan on where to go. Some folk may not want new comers horning in after a disaster.. Myself figure on staying put until the dust settels. Then work out a move if I must. A move is in the standby plan..

[ygmir]

So you guys have reactivated the survivalist portion of my brain and gotter me thinking. I've lived in the country for the last ten years and now find myself living in a city of about 250 thousand. My question for you is, if there was a sudden event like total grid collapse , natural disaster, or unnatural disaster, do you, and when do you, get the fuck out of dodge? My natural reaction would be to get out of the city immediately just because I've been a country boy a lot more of my life than I haven't. It's a setting that I'm really comfortable with and feel that I could provide for myself fairly easily. I've had a BOB for years and could be gone really quickly. Do you think it would be better to get out immediately before peoples cupboards started getting empty or just hole up and try to wait out the initial mayhem?

I'd get out, fast, but, efficient. get what you can take with you.
Also, have alternate routes.........many disaster drills involving government and troops rely on keeping people "centralized", ostensibly for feeding and shelter.....hhhhmmmmm, maybe "showers".......
and, to do that, blocking major exit points.

Have a friend or a place to go in mind, maybe more depending on what direction you have to go.........

my friends and I have also agreed on a time/channel of c.b. radio searching, to find eachother, so as not to have to just sit by the radio.
certain times of the day, for certain periods.

be armed. be willing.

some thoughts anyway.

[unjonharley]

I planted a veggie garden most dutifully. But then I realized I don't eat veggies much. I'll be getting a fine crop of jalapenos and shiso for sushi. I should raise bunnies, huh?

That is why I grow in containers. Just grow what I will eat. Grow year around in the house. Beats the hell out of crawling around in the dirt with the bugs chewing on ya.

[SilverOrange]

I don't know how much effort would really be involved in relocating. I could have everything I need loaded in my car and be out the door in fifteen minutes. I'm lucky to have been raised by a Montana survivalist family. (Winters were fun, getting dropped off with a knife, rope, and a match.) I guess my initial thoughts would be to just get to the biggest stretch of forest nearby. There's always water, food, and shelter to be had there. Cities just seem like they would denigrate into anarchy. That whole survival instinct, you know. I guess the thing I wonder about is roads. If you waited to leave, how fucked would that get, if you had to get out? I would much rather get out in a car than have to do it on foot. Backroads would be my friend. I guess how far I would go would depend on the situation. If it was some kind of pandemic or biological attack I would try to get to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. That's probably the closest place to me with the least population density. Other than that I would probably hole up somewhere closer. I don't know, I haven't lived here long enough to form a solid plan. Lame excuse.

[unjonharley]

Way out on the end of my"kit" is small motor bike. NOt fast but a good little mule. It can stream jump in the woods and carry pack load. That would get me far enough away from the nut jobs and around traffic jams slow but sure. I have done some extrem trecking with rope work. KNow how to find things to eat in the woods. ANd can put tegeather a camp not much larger than my body. Leave no trace is a good practice.

[can't sit still]

silver orange, it would depend on the situation and season. From what I've seen, people tend to hunker down in their homes when a disaster hits. Most situations would give you a warning. Any kind of warning would be plenty for someone who was listening. The exception is a CME,, sortof a sun fart. We get about 24 hours warning with a small one but, almost no warning with a big one.... they travel faster. They have the potential to take down the grid,,, semi-permanently.
The 2 things that are simmering on the horizon are; bio-weapons from an attack on Iran and a complete disintegration of the dollar.
In the case of bio-weapons, you would want to grab all the sheet plastic that you could, plus your food,,, and run.
This September, the financials are going to get a huge thrashing. Also, China and Russia will have disvested themselves of a lot of financial instruments. Fall may be the time when everybody decides to stop supporting the dollar. We can't realistically continue to make our debt payments.
"The official US debt is exploding. Bill Gross says it will be 100% of US GDP within 5 years."
If / when we default, oil imports will slow to a trickle.

"Washington is on track to issue more than $5 trillion in new debt over the next 18 months," begins Ian Mathias in today's issue of The 5 Min. Forecast."
The simple fact is that nobody in the world has that much money. They would be stupid to loan it to a deadbeat country anyway.
The super caldera in Yellowstone might not blow up for 20,000 years. The debt bubble WILL blow up . I'm guessing, close to the end of this year. Since 50 % of the people depend directly or indirectly on GOV for a check, there are going to be a lot of unhappy, desperate people.
You'll leave town when the un-prepared people learn that you're prepared.
Dan

[SilverOrange]

Way out on the end of my"kit" is small motor bike. NOt fast but a good little mule. It can stream jump in the woods and carry pack load. That would get me far enough away from the nut jobs and around traffic jams slow but sure. I have done some extrem trecking with rope work. KNow how to find things to eat in the woods. ANd can put tegeather a camp not much larger than my body. Leave no trace is a good practice.

You know, this is a great idea. I sold the dirt bikes when I moved out of the country, but a little Trail 90 would probably be great to have. I used to borrow my neighbors from time to time when we were short on rides and those little bikes are great. Small enough to lift over or slide under things, great mileage, quiet, easily concealable, and we probably had way more weight on that bike than there should have been a few times. I'm going to have to keep my eye open for one of those!

[ygmir]

some ideas.........

[can't sit still]

I know that some of my posts seem only tenuously connected to the topic of survival. IF we knew the exact date that a calamity was going to hit, we would be very focused on preparing. I'm trying to pass on info that would make it easier to project when / if a collapse is coming our way.
Is the dollar and / or the US GOV going to collapse?
Some years ago, George Soros figured out that the GB pound was overvalued. He made bets against it and gained about 1,000,000,000 in profit. He's now betting against the dollar. So is Bill Gross,, another wealthy investor;
http://www.gata.org/node/7471
The gold bugs are calling for a collapse in as little as 6--8 weeks. Dunno. Some have pointed out that nothing is working;
http://news.goldseek.com/LewRockwell/1244122369.php
Bernanke seems to be the point man. HE has the plan.
" Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke thought he could push down interest rates on Treasuries by purchasing $300 billion of them. However, the result was to cause a sharp drop in Treasury prices and a rise in interest rates.
http://www.counterpunch.com/roberts06032009.html
OK, so the high mucky mucks have completely screwed the pooch as far as the non-financial part of the economy is concerned.
What does that have to do with life on the streets?
GOV needs trillions. They promised China that they wouldn't just print it. I think that Geithner had his fingers crossed behind his back. GOV can't possibly borrow that much so, print they will.
China may insist that we sell them assets instead;
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread ... post102436
China may also insist that we radically downsize our military. The US will naturally resist. just as california marched to the edge of the cliff before they [hopefully] did something, the US will let things get really bad before they act. Chances are, THE MARKET will make moves before the US does. The dollar could crash in as little as 3 days. Since we don't do much manufacturing, we could run out of manufactured stuff pretty fast.
The FOREX trades $ 3 trillion a day. If an exodus appears, nobody will want to be left holding the bag. The dollar market would probably give you your first notice that things were out of control.

[can't sit still]

Well, GOV reports that 33.2 million people are getting food stamps. GOV is spending $ 2 trillion this year for benefits. But, the numbers from tax day,, April 15 show $ 178 billion in corporate taxes and $ 787 billion in personal taxes. Interest paid to the FED for the use of their dollar is about $ 450 billion. Rolling over the debt and paying for the military costs a bit. 50% of the people in the country depend directly or indirectly on GOV for their paycheck. Market Oracle said that GOV needs $ 23.95 billion a day to operate.

The job loss numbers only hit 350,000 last month. It wasn't widely mentioned that unemployment is climbing just the same. Nobody is hiring so that even though job losses are halved, total unemployed is on a straight line up.
GOV plans to borrow $ 3 trillion in the next 18 months. Nobody has the cash.
I'll leave it up to your imagination to project where these trends are going to take the country.

[ygmir]

I could see posting the above type info in the "long cold winter" thread, or like that, and, having this thread for more specific ideas and techniques.

just a thought, since, I read both, and, probably, so do the other participants on this thread......

[can't sit still]

Henry, I started the "long cold winter" thread to warn people that a cyclic economic problem was on it's way. It was more or less an academic approach. I started the "survival" thread to be more timely and specific.
The biggest part of survival is preparedness. Job-loss numbers aren't as 'sexy" as pics of a deuce-and-a-half but, they are valuable for planning for most people. You're in the enviable position of having all you need to get by fine for a couple of years.
Most people have to scrimp and save to buy essentials. I'm hoping that accurate, timely advice will prevent them from both panicking AND complacency.
Many people tend to do a 'time compression" and see all the problems coming soon and at the same time.
There are currently over 9 million unemployed. For them, the problems ARE coming all at once. It all depends on one's situation.
The dollar is NOW dropping like a stone. Gas has gone up 67 % this year. It will go much higher. For many people that have a long commute, this is a huge survival problem.
House prices in the bedroom communities are crashing badly. For some people this is disaster. For others, it's not important.
I can only guess just what info is important to individual readers.
As a practical matter, I would stock up on manufactured goods. The crashing dollar will raise prices way up on imports.
Just so I won't be accused of failing to post anything PRACTICAL, here's a backup generator that can be easily built an run for "peanuts"
http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html

[unjonharley]

CSS, I did not mean to put you down..

I was running a drill to see where people were at.

9 mill out of work huh?

28 mill illegal working.

You do the math.


Learn to conserve now. So you wont suffer later.. Learn square foot gardening and garden in movable containers.. Cost less than supermarket food and taste better.
Time cost to you is about the same as a trip to the store a week.

Oh and don't lay that crap on me about illegals are only doing dirty jobs. "G W Bush (out of contex)"

Guy was deported after 15 years. He was crying about the 45K bank job he had.

Illegals storming our state cap. I in passing by, was told " Your old. Why don't you die and make room for us"

[can't sit still]

No offense taken at all Harley. We all know that a good joke can circle the world in minutes. GS made money by being fractions of a second faster in trades. We all know that all kinds of draconian rules are already in place. The command-and-control part of the police state is on the books. In the information age,,,,, how fast could it be implemented?
http://www.grandpappy.info/honehour.htm

As far as foreign workers, I've seen it all. Right now, obama is down in mexico for talks. Mexico is currently losing about 60 % of it's income. I suspect that the mexican pres wants the US to absorb all it's extra people.
I spent 10 years driving around Mexico and I can tell you that there is nothing that we need from Mexico,,, now that they've run out of oil. The chilies and tropical fruits are good but, that's about all. I can easily do without the drugs.
I've worked with lots of latinos for years. Most of the ones that I've worked with have a good work ethic. This is something that is missing in a LOT of native born Americans.

Bill Bonner;
"Guess how many jobs the US private sector has added over the last 10 years? Almost none. Private sector employment is back to levels of 1999. There are more jobs in restaurants and health care...but many fewer in manufacturing. Net gain: zero.

The only job gains have been in the parasite sector - government. On the evidence, this trend is going to continue. Now, the feds have a new post called "pay czar." As near as we can tell this is a busybody who undertakes to control salaries in the industries that the feds have bailed out. There will be a lot more jobs running the regulatory/bailout apparatus. Then, too, there are all the make-work jobs of the shovel ready boondoggles the feds began in an effort to replace private spending. "

Bonner;
"If the private sector undertook to reduce debt back to 2000 levels, it would mean eliminating all the debt accumulated during the bubble years - or about $19 trillion. How long will it take to pay down, write off, inflate away and otherwise shuck $19 trillion? Well, inflation is running below zero - so that is not now a source of debt reduction. Between write-offs and pay-downs, about $2 trillion has already been cut - over, very roughly, the last 2 years. At least the math is easy. At that rate, it will take 19 years.

Now, let's go back and look at the Japanese. How long have they been deleveraging? Gosh all mighty...19 years. From 1990 to 2009. "

In the future, the ONLY important question will be; do you have a job?

[can't sit still]

We'll lose about another 2.5 million jobs between now and August, and by the end of 3Q09 we'll see employment starting to recover.
."

Predictions are hard to make,,, accurately.

[Ugly Dougly]

We are all about to become refugees.

[can't sit still]

Things are pretty quiet now. It's a reprieve. The International Forecaster has a good track record for accuracy. "We wrote six years ago that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were broke. Everyone in finance and in Washington knew that but no one was listening"
http://www.theinternationalforecaster.c ... y_Going_On
Here are a few quotes;
"Until the next election the economy should go sideways to slightly better. Next summer through November should be best, but that will be the end of somewhat better times. The parallel movement you are seeing is the result of a massive injection of money and credit over the past year. Next year you will see the results of 80% of the stimulus program"
"Today some 16 million homeowners have negative equity, which for them is a nightmare. Most of those who speculated in real estate have been wiped out and commercial speculators are next. By the end of 2012, 70% of Americans with home loans will have negative equity"
"Congress would be asked late this year or early next year for an additional $2 trillion"
". The opportunity to save the system is long past as we predicted in June 2003"
"In October, the corporations will have to deal with Basel III and the new FASB rulings, which demand full accounting of balance sheets. That should be a telling event if it ever comes to pass. We will know in two weeks."

OK burners, I posted this in the survival thread because it shows a timeline. You have just so many months left to get yourself situated in some kind of sustainable arrangement. This timeline is somewhat optimistic compared to other prognosticators who also have been accurate in their predictions.
The majority of predictions from people like Martin Armstrong, LEAP 2000, and Gerald Celente are calling for about 12 to 23 years of depression.
Good luck to all.

[can't sit still]

One of the biggest factors in survival is mental toughness. You can find innumerable books on physical survival. Here's a good essay on mental surviving. It meshes with Burner ideals.


In Search of Morale

Are Americans Too Broken for the Truth to Set Us Free?

By Bruce E. Levine

December 05, 2009 "Counterpunch" -- Can people become so broken that truths of how they are being screwed do not “set them freeâ€

[Sail Man]

Unfortunately the majority have become sheeple.

[ygmir]

that's a bbaaaaaaaddddddd attitude, mister...........

*looks at Bo Peep for approval*

[theCryptofishist]

I hate the term "sheeple." Especially in the self-congratulating way burners use it.