Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:04 pm

Imagine a foreign nation holding the Sierra Nevada and denying that water to the rest of California... There would have to be war.

Yes, Israel needs the water. One could suppose they could pay for it rather than kill and steal for it, but maybe that is just me. The Separation Wall is estimated at $3.4 Billion. How much water would that buy? What about if the IDF suspended their expensive patrol and pacification operations in the occupied territories. How much water would that buy?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:09 pm

Do you throw something away because it doesn't work the way you think it ought to?

this is overly simplistic.

to satisfy your request for my remedies...

100% public funding of elections. Get rid of quid pro-quo politics.

I think that would be a fine start.

I think it unfair to demand of me a remedy for the current Iraq debacle. My policy choices would not have us there in the first place. Either now, a decade ago, or 50 years ago.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:11 pm

Don Muerto wrote:
Imagine a foreign nation holding the Sierra Nevada and denying that water to the rest of California... There would have to be war.
Yes, Israel needs the water. One could suppose they could pay for it rather than kill and steal for it, but maybe that is just me. The Separation Wall is estimated at $3.4 Billion. How much water would that buy? What about if the IDF suspended their expensive patrol and pacification operations in the occupied territories. How much water would that buy?

Right on Don.

my my my you guys are a great read today.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:11 pm

Joel, if only your point was as strong as you believe. I think the US is reaping what it has sown in the mideast and among Muslim nations. If that translates to 'evil' in your mental lexicon then so be it.

The point you keep missing is that the good/evil analysis just doesn't fucking work regardless of who is on what side. The Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Palestinians, British, Americans, Russians, Greeks, Albanians and even the lowly French are all pursuing similar goals.

As it happens, the US is the most powerful state and by projecting this power via its foreign policy it has made enemies. This does not make our enemies 'evil', nor does it confer upon them some animalistic hatred of our alleged 'goodness.'

Like us, they are rational people who want to be free to choose their path in life and grow old bouncing their grandchildren on their knees.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:13 pm

stuart wrote:
Do you throw something away because it doesn't work the way you think it ought to?
this is overly simplistic.

to satisfy your request for my remedies...

100% public funding of elections. Get rid of quid pro-quo politics.

I think that would be a fine start.

I think it unfair to demand of me a remedy for the current Iraq debacle. My policy choices would not have us there in the first place. Either now, a decade ago, or 50 years ago.

Dr. LRB said it best:

Last Real Burner wrote:Politics Suck. And so do others opinions of it.

"I live in my own little world, but it's ok... They know me here."

policically,
mr smith

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:15 pm

Uh,

sorry guys I just woke up.

Forget what I just posted.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:15 pm

Tony, that contributes nothing to a political themed topic. Could you please stay on topic or take it somewhere else?

(obSignal to Noise)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:27 pm

Don Muerto, I understand the concept of just buy it.. But this is the Middle East after all. The difficulties between the Palestinians and Israelis... Take that into account, would the Israelis ever be willing to put the faucets in the hands of their enemies? Probably not in the next hundred years.

Now this becomes a source for great arguments, but I connect with the Arab opinion side of this argument on a frequent basis. The Arab Palestinian position is that they want the land of Israel. They want the Jews gone. This is the long term goal not just of Hamas but of pretty much all Arab Palestinians. Most Israelis know this. The only question is; can Israel hang on to what they have? If you look at the Middle East the Arabs have basically created nothing. Foreigners do it all. UAE one of the most progressive states materially and socially is 85 percent foreign. The Pakistanis, Indians, Filipinos do the work, Euros and Americans are the managers, the Arabs drive around in Range Rovers and Drink....

The Arabs want Israel because the Israelis have a viable infrastructure/economy. The Arabs want it.. Now, I know that there are folks that will take offense at this.. But trust me.. Do heavy research and you will come to the same conclusion. The Israelis (the argument as to whether they should be there is a different argument) really do have their backs to the sea. That accounts for a great deal of their intransigence.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:41 pm

Don Muerto wrote:Joel, if only your point was as strong as you believe. I think the US is reaping what it has sown in the mideast and among Muslim nations. If that translates to 'evil' in your mental lexicon then so be it.

The point you keep missing is that the good/evil analysis just doesn't fucking work regardless of who is on what side. The Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Palestinians, British, Americans, Russians, Greeks, Albanians and even the lowly French are all pursuing similar goals.

As it happens, the US is the most powerful state and by projecting this power via its foreign policy it has made enemies. This does not make our enemies 'evil', nor does it confer upon them some animalistic hatred of our alleged 'goodness.'

Like us, they are rational people who want to be free to choose their path in life and grow old bouncing their grandchildren on their knees.

DVD, Stuart and others have asked what my position is.... well, here is one position....

there are bad people (enemies, internal and external) out there, and if we (you and i) are not vigilant, they (those bad people) will take our shit (freedom, security, safety, food and water) away... and sometimes it requires sacrifice, and always requires someone taking responsiblity.

There is no good/evil analysis here... none of my words claim inherent goodness of myself and/or us... however, in context "bad" means those willing to harm me and my world, of which you also exist within...

Stuart, DVD and others wanted to know what I think... so I obliged.

f*cking sheesh, back to the old cut and paste...

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:54 pm

On a decidedly lighter note...

Alpha and I had a brief agreement and concluded...

If all political leaders were naked all the time, they would be taken a little less seriously.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:57 pm

So...is it ok that I apologize for my earlier post

And Joel for what it's worth I enjoy your opinions more than I enjoy your cut and paste.

Your opinions here are much more valuble. they help for a diffrent insight. others my disagree with me there but hey that's ok, it's Amerika.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:07 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:two points, Joel can you change your name to Cutnpaste? more to the point.
Don Muerto to change what you said just a little bit. Israel must have the water from the west bank. Those hills make the state of Israel viable, solely because they are the water resource for Israel. So whether spoken or unspoken, Israels actions whatever they are, must retain access to the water. Imagine a foreign nation holding the Sierra Nevada and denying that water to the rest of California... There would have to be war.

Sad.. but reality intrudes on the politics of left or right, Palestinian or Israeli regarding water.

As Mark Twain said (about the Great American West) "whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting over".

Regarding your suggestion....
Uh. No....

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:10 pm

i went and re-read my posts.... I don't think I ever argued a good versus evil anywhere in my posts... as attributed by Don Muerto.

just a point of clarification...

I could be wrong, but please provide proof.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:43 pm

"I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:45 pm

"When you appeal to force, there's one thing you must never do - lose."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:44 pm

Simply Joel wrote: If all political leaders were naked all the time, they would be taken a little less seriously.

We tried that once. Then the penis sheath was invented. Fewer people per capita are dying in wars than did in the hunter/gatherer days, as best as we can tell.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:15 pm

Weelll Heelll Joel I agree you never did... Cain't hardly do that when you cutnpaste others thoughts... Glad we could agree on this..

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:15 pm

Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department
CHEYENNE, WY—After attempting to contain a living-room blaze started by a cigarette, card-carrying Libertarian Trent Jacobs reluctantly called the Cheyenne Fire Department Monday. "Although the community would do better to rely on an efficient, free-market fire-fighting service, the fact is that expensive, unnecessary public fire departments do exist," Jacobs said. "Also, my house was burning down." Jacobs did not offer to pay firefighters for their service.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:50 pm

Please note... I am not trying to convince anyone of anything... yet I can assure you. Where I live, most folks are supportive of "getting those folks that are trying to destroy Western Civilization." and I find it disconcerting that I am "the voice of reason" among them yet I am perceived at almost 180 degrees from most posting here.

DVD, Stuart and others have asked what my position is.... well, here is one position....

there are bad people (enemies, internal and external) out there, and if we (you and i) are not vigilant, they (those bad people) will take our shit (freedom, security, safety, food and water) away... and sometimes it requires sacrifice, and always requires someone taking responsiblity.

chew on those thoughts for awhile... before responding...

Joel, per your instructions, I chewed on this unpalatable mental gristle, and then challenged you to explain it. Who are the 'bad people' to whom you refer? Why are *they* bad? Because they oppose us? Because we are good? Is there critical thought behind what you are posting or are you merely mouthing the slogans corporate media has bombarded you with?

If you aren't making good vs. evil distinctions then it seems to me you are doing the mental equivalent of a chicken pecking out a tune in a Chinatown novelty shop.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:54 pm

Black Rock Ric, -However rich a target you find this environment, I ask you to refrain from flaming Joel or otherwise posting off topic. This thread is for the respectful discussion of politics, not critique of the posting style or personal foibles of eplayans.

Force · Post by **Force** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:34 am

Simply Joel wrote:I have one brief concise rule to live by... "Don't let the authorities get involved in my life and/or business." apparently the protester in Miami failed to follow such a rule.

Yeah, haven't those protester morons ever heard that line from the Clash song- "You have the right to free speech, as long as you're not dumb enough to actually TRY it!"

What the fuck were they thinking? They deserved what they got.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:45 am

Force wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:I have one brief concise rule to live by... "Don't let the authorities get involved in my life and/or business." apparently the protester in Miami failed to follow such a rule.
Yeah, haven't those protester morons ever heard that line from the Clash song- "You have the right to free speech, as long as you're not dumb enough to actually TRY it!"

What the fuck were they thinking? They deserved what they got.

I believe what Force wrote was exactly the point I was trying to make.

Forgive me for being a cynical old Republican Clash fan.

In response to i

making good vs. evil distinctions

reference, I never did or never will live in a black and white world as your comment nearly demands.

Regarding protestors getting thumped.... My first First Sergeant once told me "Always have a Plan B." and I took those words to heart. If I go to a protest, a function of any sort, I ensure I have an escape route.... a Plan B if you will. "Oh sh*t Joel, you mean "radical self-reliance?" Yes, little Billie, that is exactly what I meant.

Is the above postion clear enough for all of you?

It is a fucking camping trip.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:35 am

Don Muerto you will notice that your postings have been reasoned and show that you think about and are concerned about these things. My responses to you reflect that. However, the first amendment allows me to hammer in my truely humorous and entertaining style upon those who suffer from the dreaded but all to common disease, lackathink. While some quoting from others works to buttress an arguement is worthwhile, piling cut and pasted articles upon cut and pasted articles upon cut and pasted articles does not show that the poster even understands what information they are posting. If those sorts of posters would summarize, analyze, reflect, write their own material and then post, as you do, I for one would give them a bit more credence

School children when give a report to do are likely to go to the internet and print out encyclopedia entries and hand it in as their report.. Surprisingly, their parents are often upset when a teacher won't accept it..

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:07 am

Black Rock Ric wrote:Don Muerto you will notice that your postings have been reasoned and show that you think about and are concerned about these things. My responses to you reflect that. However, the first amendment allows me to hammer in my truely humorous and entertaining style upon those who suffer from the dreaded but all to common disease, lackathink. While some quoting from others works to buttress an arguement is worthwhile, piling cut and pasted articles upon cut and pasted articles upon cut and pasted articles does not show that the poster even understands what information they are posting. If those sorts of posters would summarize, analyze, reflect, write their own material and then post, as you do, I for one would give them a bit more credence

School children when give a report to do are likely to go to the internet and print out encyclopedia entries and hand it in as their report.. Surprisingly, their parents are often upset when a teacher won't accept it..

I find this posting absolutely absurb... in a

truely humorous and entertaining style.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:49 am

I believe what Force wrote was exactly the point I was trying to make.

Your point is that free speech doesn't really exist? How does this tie into your Vigilance, Sacrifice & Responsibility statements? Is this a medication issue with you?

3rd times a charm: Who are these 'bad' guys? What makes them 'bad'? Is it because they oppose us? Is it because we are 'good'?

How can you make a statement, claim that it is being misinterpreted and consistently skirt making yourself clear?

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:55 am

...the first amendment allows me to hammer in my truely humorous and entertaining style upon those who suffer from the dreaded but all to common disease, lackathink. While some quoting from others works to buttress an arguement is worthwhile, piling cut and pasted articles upon cut and pasted articles upon cut and pasted articles does not show that the poster even understands what information they are posting.

Whether or not Joel exhibits critical thinking skills or demonstrates an understanding of the materials he pastes is not the point. This is not the 'Joel' thread.

Again, I ask everyone to keep to the topic of Politics, and direct any criticisms towards the content of other's arguments instead of their source.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:02 am

I am satisfied that I have made my point all too clear.

If you can't see the forest because of the trees, then so be it....

Have a nice day.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:20 am

I am satisfied that I have made my point all too clear.

You have not addressed one concern put to you regarding your argument. Simply restating your assertions and ignoring the massive holes in your logic is neither convincing nor productive of debate and learning.

I am satisfied that I have made it absolutely clear that you are the Supreme Commander of Janet Reno's invisible space armada. If you ask me to explain why, I will tell you that "the more things change the more they stay the same."

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:24 am

Don Muerto wrote:
I am satisfied that I have made my point all too clear.
You have not addressed one concern put to you regarding your argument. Simply restating your assertions and ignoring the massive holes in your logic is neither convincing nor productive of debate and learning.

I am satisfied that I have made it absolutely clear that you are the Supreme Commander of Janet Reno's invisible space armada. If you ask me to explain why, I will tell you that "the more things change the more they stay the same."

Sorry, but your logic looks like swiss cheese and/or a screen door to me, so i guess I must agree to disagree. I would have said "we" but I doubt I can convince you of anything you haven't already decided upon.

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:42 am

I doubt I can convince you of anything you haven't already decided upon

You could try. Start with who these 'bad' guys are, what makes them 'bad' and whether we are the 'good' guys and why.

Are you unable to back up these assertions or do you honestly believe you have explained them to the best of your ability? If you feel you have, could you point me at the explanation? I can't find it anywhere.

Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

Don Muerto

Re: d

s

Don Muerto

Re: Don Muerto