Radical Inclusion: Should we include harmful people?

Xhile · Post by **Xhile** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:57 am

"Radical Inclusion:
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community. "

Are we required to include known criminals?

Are we required to include people who have personally hurt us?

Are we required to include people who we believe are likely to hurt others?

Are we required to include people we just plain don't like?

These are very relevant questions for me at the moment. If anyone is able to share some thoughts around this, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:02 am

paul swears that he wont do it again.....

where's the Love?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:13 am

"you" don't have to do anything.
Who do you mean by "we"?

Just for clarity.........

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:20 am

yeah, and i'm DEFINITELY a known criminal, WTF?

maybe you should not come, because, you know, BM jumped the shark back in 2007...

Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Aotearoa

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:19 am

as a noob, who's heavily involved in one of the regionals, i hope to get to the Nevada burn before it jumps the shark.

People were saying that years ago, but i do think things have a natural life before they go bad.
_________________

ummmmmm, yeeeeeeeaaaahhhhhhhhhhh. riiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggght.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:05 am

now you did it......you scared him away............

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:44 am

Xhile wrote:"Radical Inclusion:
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community. "

Are we required to include known criminals?

Are we required to include people who have personally hurt us?

Are we required to include people who we believe are likely to hurt others?

Are we required to include people we just plain don't like?

These are very relevant questions for me at the moment. If anyone is able to share some thoughts around this, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Known criminals? Are they free?
Have you been hurt alot?
you believe someone is going to hurt people?
and your final statement,...

is there anyone who doesn't like YOU?

(I hope my example explains that I think Burning Man is not all about ME.. or YOU.. it's US... embrace it, be one with it... what the world needs now is.... just think how fucked up it would be if you went to burning man and there was nobody there....!)

While at Black Rock City, if someone hurts you, there are lots of resources for you to get help. Black Rock Rangers, Medical People and LEO's are all there to maintain the peace. Black Rock City can be a place of healing and letting go of old grudges and greviences. Burn the bad away, sacrafice your negative feelings to the man.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:24 pm

ygmir wrote:now you did it......you scared him away............

He was giving you the finger.

Mmmm... finger sandwiches... tasty....

Xhile · Post by **Xhile** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:28 pm

By the way, this has nothing to do with Paul Addis.

I am talking about someone who has given me physical violence off the playa.

Sure, BM is not about "me". But am I required to include this person, even if I am scared of them and don't like them?

Do "we" the group, include and welcome people who... have been hurtful?

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:49 pm

Xhile wrote:By the way, this has nothing to do with Paul Addis.

I am talking about someone who has given me physical violence off the playa.

Sure, BM is not about "me". But am I required to include this person, even if I am scared of them and don't like them?

Do "we" the group, include and welcome people who... have been hurtful?

as stated, there are no "requirements".........especially for you, personally...........

if you're implying that this person be "banned" from attendance, well, I doubt that can happen, although, I'm sure there are more learned/experienced people here that can answer with more accuracy.

I am sure, "we", (whomever that is) welcome all sorts of people......
I'd bet there are very violent people that attend, and, super pacifists.........and, dozens of each, not just one.........

I'd say, if, this person is/has hurt you, and/or threatened more of same, perhaps, you could contact Rangers and give them a "heads up" of their intentions?

But, you, as an individual, are not obligated to "include" this person in anything you do.............but, if they insinuate or intrude, you'll have to decide whether to include them, bar them, or leave............

I'm not sure as a "we" much can or will be done...........

Just sayin' that, perhaps, radical self reliance will dictate your actions better than a group dynamic.....

wedeliver · Post by **wedeliver** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:00 pm

Xhile wrote:By the way, this has nothing to do with Paul Addis.

I am talking about someone who has given me physical violence off the playa.

Sure, BM is not about "me". But am I required to include this person, even if I am scared of them and don't like them?

Do "we" the group, include and welcome people who... have been hurtful?

Let me guess. your ex...??

Do you have a restraining order?

Are you being stalked?

You are not required to include anyone, especially if they scare you!

I think of burning man like a gulliver's travels type of thing, where anyone can join as we travel but we expect a story!

gaminwench · Post by **gaminwench** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:22 pm

One year I had a problem with an ex stalking me on the playa, I went next door, found the Ranger/Sanctuary person living there and explained...she talked to him and voila!...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:27 pm

I hope you're not camping with *him.*

Just go. Are you camping with supportive people, who will protect you in case *he* shows up? Make whatever preparations seem reasonable--but remember not to bring a gun. It may help to discuss this with the rangers once you are on playa. It may even help to talk it over with them before, but I'd rather not be the person to hand out that invitation. If something creepy but not criminal happens there are people with real mental health experience who will talk to you. If something criminal happens and you are willing to press charges, the rangers can do more for you. There's a fair bit of domestic violence on the playa, so they are familier with those sorts of situations.

I think you need to do some hard thinking, about if you want to go in these circumstances (yes, it isn't fair, but you can only decide if you are going to be on the playa--not if he is.) About what your contingency plans are. Who's going to know where you are. I don't know what else. Remember most participants will help you, if push comes to shove and that if you choose to confide in your neighbors that it's likely they will look out for you. I'm not going to guarentee anything. I can't. I'm also wondering if attending a Bureau of Erotic Discourse seminar is going to be at all useful to you. We formed after an on-playa rape, and we do allow certain camps to proclaim afiliation with our principles, but again we cannot guarentee that those camps will be absolutely safe.

Spend some time with yourself thinking about what you want and don't want. Ask some more specific questions, if you feel okay about airing them on-line. otherwise we're going to give rather fuzzy advise, because we can only talk in generatlities. Or talk it over with a trusted friend. even a councilor.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:32 pm

"Radical Inclusion:
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community. "

Are we required to include known criminals?

Are we required to include people who have personally hurt us?

Are we required to include people who we believe are likely to hurt others?

Are we required to include people we just plain don't like?

These are very relevant questions for me at the moment. If anyone is able to share some thoughts around this, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
_________________

So long as any individual comports themselves appropriately there's no barring, no black balling, no exclusion of groups or individuals.

Precedent has been set.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:35 pm

Oh, and a good rule of thumb is to take the necessary steps so's to not be a victim so long as you 1) don't break the law doing it 2) don't infringe on the basic tenants of the event.

Most folks know what that means.

If folks can't figure that one out then I'd argue that the conventional wisdom is to stay the fuck home.

Hope that helps.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:33 pm

Thanks, Iso, I knew you'd cut to the heart of the matter.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:28 am

To paraphrase Groucho: I wouldn't want to go to some stupid art festival that would have someone like me as a participant.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:46 am

but remember not to bring a gun

where were you seven years ago when i was sawing off my shotgun to fit in my saddlebags?

fuck.

might i suggest going to your local Feed and Tack store and purchasing an electric cattle prod

http://www.bicwarehouse.com/livestock-prod-ss36.html

they're fun and effective at keeping livestock going in the right direction.

but in all seriousness, if this person commits a crime, have them arrested.

if you are afraid they may commit a crime, then prove it to the locals and get a restraining order, otherwise, you are shit outta luck and had either better just deal with it or this person, or not go.

fight back, you'll feel better, unless you like the whole sub thing.

Post by **Sham** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:28 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:To paraphrase Groucho: I wouldn't want to go to some stupid art festival that would have someone like me as a participant.

Can I use that quote?

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:52 am

"No, you may not."
-Groucho Marx

Radical self-reliance requires the use of a truncheon. It's the desert, it's dark, nobody's watching, that thing in your hand is art and you are putting on a performance if anyone asks.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:14 am

hey, the whole 'performance art' thing worked for two hours at Comfort & Joy.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:28 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:
ygmir wrote:now you did it......you scared him away............
He was giving you the finger.

Mmmm... finger sandwiches... tasty....

Xhile, you're still giving us the bird. What's up with that?

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:00 am

Two words of advice: Restraining Order.

If the threat is real, and not imagined, you probably can convince a judge to issue a restraining order. Here's one time where it's real good to have a ton of LEO's patrolling our event in the desert.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:11 pm

If there *is* a restraining order in place then yeah, its a good idea to 1) contact BLM/Washoe/Pershing at the event site and let them know 2) make the same notifications to the Black Rock Rangers and include the person(s) name, where you are camping and other pertinent information.

LEO will probably require proof of the order so if there is one it might help to bring a copy along.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:51 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:hey, the whole 'performance art' thing worked for two hours at Comfort & Joy.

Okay. Um. Look what was reported in the media is not how it happened, and no one actually thought it was an art piece. Just because Moist Pup hasn't stuck his nose in here lately doesn't mean that he or other camp members wouldn't think is was a low blow if they were to read it.

Laughing Forest · Post by **Laughing Forest** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:12 pm

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:03 pm

was not meant as one....my apologies for the crude sense of humor which i can only blame western new york for.

we still think fart jokes are hilarious.

i agree that the media did not portray the situation in a positive light, or even correctly, and was a tragedy, but so is 9-11 and i make fun of that too, so all of you super patriots can start hating on me if you feel so obliged, but it's not meant to offend, it is humor, and if it does, well, quick....look away and scroll down, or call me out as you have done here.

but like a moth to a flame, i cannot resist a bad joke.

**burn** · Post by **burn** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:58 pm

Should we include harmful people?

How would they be un-included?
Inspected notarized papers at the Gate?
Verifed bloody fingered dna prints?

Define harmful.
Someone pissing on your tent? Darkwads? Simon's jokes?

brcprincess · Post by **brcprincess** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:56 pm

Friends of mine has the misfortune of camping near Camp Annoyance, whose sole purpose is to act like total assholes towards everyone camped nearby. This might sound funny in theory, but it was a nightmare for them.

Camp Annoyance picked nasty fights with people, calling women "sluts" and "whores", verbally abusing and threatening them. They got a lawnmower and would turn it on in the deep dust, causing massive dust storms in the area, and deliberately filling peoples tents with dust. There were already issues trying to keep the dust down due to complaints from local towns, and our friends tried to explain it, but they didn't care, they just saw it as an opportunity to try and push physical fights.

Camp Annoyance ignored cautions and pleas from the rangers and were at the point of being thrown out one day by half a dozen rangers who completely fed up with them.

I get the whole point of "no rules" at BM and it seems great in theory, until you camp near people like Camp Annoyance whose sole purpose of attending BM is to ruin it for as many participants as possible.

cutmeoffandcallmeshorty · Post by **cutmeoffandcallmeshorty** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:00 pm

Oh for Fuck's sake, I can't believe this thread has so much attention, Just take the "Person" out in the forest / desert and clip em behind the ear for Gods's sake and enjoy yourself with 40,000+ other likewise idiots for 7 days in the desert.

There is more important shit to talk about like prepareing for the event.
Give me your ideas for a shower, How to evap gray water, food ideas,
Shit, I'll even listen the bitchin about the porta potties.

God damn motherfuckers!

This whole thread smells like shit trolling wankers. I smell a "Deliver" by us and the other dickhead that bar-b-qued his ticket that was promised to some Canuk .

Be nice to each other,
Shorty....
PS, Thank God for the second amendmant.

brcprincess · Post by **brcprincess** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:47 pm

cutmeoffandcallmeshorty wrote:Oh for Fuck's sake, I can't believe this thread has so much attention, Just take the "Person" out in the forest / desert and clip em behind the ear for Gods's sake and enjoy yourself with 40,000+ other likewise idiots for 7 days in the desert.

There is more important shit to talk about like prepareing for the event.
Give me your ideas for a shower, How to evap gray water, food ideas,
Shit, I'll even listen the bitchin about the porta potties.

God damn motherfuckers!

Umm.. this is the "Politics & Philosophy" forum.

Perhaps you should visit the "Q & A, Tips and Tricks" forum instead?

Radical Inclusion: Should we include harmful people?

Radical Inclusion: Should we include harmful people?

Re: Radical Inclusion: Should we include harmful people?