Neanderthal slain, human sought for questioning

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:52 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/200 ... cesuggests

Newly analyzed remains suggest that a modern human killed a Neanderthal man in what is now Iraq between 50,000 and 75,000 years ago. The finding is scant but tantalizing evidence for a theory that modern humans helped to kill off the Neanderthals.

The probable weapon of choice: A thrown spear.

The evidence: A lethal wound on the remains of a Neanderthal skeleton.

The victim: A 40- to 50-year-old male, now called Shanidar 3, with signs of arthritis and a sharp, deep slice in his left ninth rib.

Hot off the cold case files.

dr.placebo · Post by **dr.placebo** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:18 am

If there were nail marks on his extremities I'd say that he died for our sins.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:36 am

How do we know that the spear was thrown by a Cro-Magnon and not a Neanderthal?

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:44 am

It's generally thought that Neanderthals didn't have that technology. You might find that mentioned in the article.

Fire_Moose · Post by **Fire_Moose** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:05 am

Hope this doesn't bring up any distaste Dougly, hopefully not a relative

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:38 pm

did they keep census records back then? he may be related to more than just dougly!

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:44 pm

Unless you fell from the sky.

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:48 pm

Neanderthals had spear points: From The Natural History Museum, London, England;

http://piclib.nhm.ac.uk/piclib/

Image reference: 31829

Title: Neanderthal spear point

Description:
A spear point once belonging to that of Neanderthal Man (Homo neanderthalensis). This specimen was discovered in Gorham's Cave, Gibraltar.

Collection: Anthropology
Category: Tools and Artifacts
Theme: Rough and Smooth
Keywords: anthropological, anthropology, artifact, cave, gorham, point, spear, stone, tool

Genus/Species :
Homo neanderthalensis

Â© The Natural History Museum, London

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:56 pm

don't worry we'll protect you Ugly dougly fromthose homos

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:59 am

i'm sure dougly can handle himself, after all, what do barbarians do best?

THEY KICK ASS, MOTHERFUCKERS.

no debating, no compromise, no kindness, or mercy, just a good old fashioned beat down on anything or anyone who stands in dougly's way.

actually the beast is in all of us, i'd rather fight a guy who is 7' tall and basically a decent human being, than fight the little schmuck with ross perot syndrome, and two daggers in his boots, for both of your eyes.

these little clowns will stop at nothing.

i usually just stick my hand, attached to my long arm, on these bozo's foreheads and let them do a reverse moonwalk double speed until the mighty mighty fist of my left hand punches them in the nuts.

but thats just me.

Tamino · Post by **Tamino** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:38 pm

So easy even a human can do it!

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:56 pm

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:22 pm

Monkeypoo wrote:and

wow, monkeypoo, think about it. you'd be moving up with a guy like this!

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:00 pm

men are like dogs, if they can't eat it or fuck it, they piss on it...

then bury it...

woof.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:11 pm

1. You can't tell if a wound was caused by a spear jabbed or a spear thrown ... you can not tell what propelled the spear by looking at a break on a rib of a 75,000 year old skeleton. That is simply asinine. But by definition 50% of the population is below the median intelligence level (yet 100% believe they are above it) so people can print pretty much whatever they want as long as it is "interesting".

2. It could just as easily been a wound from an antler of a deer. Looking at injuries to various neanderthal skeletons found to date, most appear to have died from "rodeo" injuries leading scientists to believe that in many cases neanderthal often swarmed their prey and brought them down with their bare hands. Hunger can get you to do some pretty crazy things.

3. If the article is accurate, it just shows that Iraqis have been killing each other for 75,000 years.

Neanderthal had very advanced spears, points, knives, etc. Get an anthropology text and look up Mousterian industry. Someone's research money is running low so they put out a press release in order to call attention to how "vital" and interesting their work is. Move along ... nothing to see. It is pretty much 100% speculation.

CSI technique doesn't work on a 75,000 year old skeleton. It is entertainment more than science.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:41 am

Neanderthals stole Cro-Magnon technology. I have the ancestral memories to prove it.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:43 am

You're not an archaeologist. I am not an expert, but I've studied some books on the subject.

There's a major difference between an antler wound and an incision my a worked flint projectile. An Antler would inflict a blunt splintered wound on a bone. A worked flinted projectile would leave an cleaner incision much like a saw since it is similar.

Neathethals crude flints do not compare with Cro Magnon works and one could ascertain the difference.

AIIZ

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:55 pm

"Neathethals crude flints do not compare with Cro Magnon works and one could ascertain the difference. "

Yeah, by looking at the flints, but an edge is an edge and it is the edge that does the "work".

You can't tell by looking what broke a rib that broke 75,000 years ago and had already started healing having been inflicted some weeks before the owner of said rib died. Please be careful for words such as "could", "might", "perhaps", "possibly", etc. as they are the mainstay of speculation.

If I remember from my reading of the article, it mentions another find with a bump on the head and they speculate that was also caused by a human. Maybe it was caused by a meteorite impact. Who the hell knows? They certainly don't.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:45 pm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... urder.html

CSI: Paleolithic

To test these theories, Churchill and his team used a crossbow that could be calibrated to create different kinds of injuries in pig carcasses, which have body structures similar to humans'.

The team then examined the wounds created by the equivalent of a thrusted spear and one thrown from a distance using an ancient projectile weapon.

"When we replicated the lower energies involved with projectile weapons, we tended to get the nice clean incisions that we see in Shanidar," Churchill explained.

By contrast, "injuries caused by a thrusting spear usually involved at least two ribs, and there was massive collateral damage."

Also, whatever nicked the Neanderthal's rib entered the body at a 45-degree downward angle, which is consistent with the curved "ballistic trajectory" of a thrown weapon, Churchill said.

Better Date Needed

An atalatl would predate a long bow. We will have to wait until the carbon date to know better!

AIIZ

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:26 pm

Do we know that the victim was standing? Perhaps he was stabbed in bed by a jealous husband. A sharp downward stroke from above with a smallish hand knife could do it...article is pure speculation.

But I wasn't there, I didn't do it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:38 pm

Oldguy wrote:Do we know that the victim was standing? Perhaps he was stabbed in bed by a jealous husband. A sharp downward stroke from above with a smallish hand knife could do it...article is pure speculation.

But I wasn't there, I didn't do it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

hmmmmm ... old guy ... motive ... sounds defensive ... hmmmm ...

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:23 am

"injuries caused by a thrusting spear usually involved at least two ribs, and there was massive collateral damage."

That is completely idiotic for several reasons.

1. A spear entering a body whether thrust or thrown enters at some speed and some angle. It does not break one rib or two depending on whether it was thrown or thrust. It breaks one rib or two depending on the angle, the speed and the angle of the point. Now imagine I have a spear with the blade vertical ... by that I mean the edges up and down ... and thrust it in. Yes, it will likely damage two ribs. If I have it horizontal, it wont.

Now I shoot an arrow from a crossbow. Is the angle when it hits the target horizontal or vertical?

The tests mean nothing. It's horse shit.

2. what "collateral damage"?

Are they looking at organ damage to the pig? If so, they aren't going to be able to see any organ damage on a 75Kyo skeleton because the organs are gone. They speculate that the person died of lung damage. How do they know it wasn't blood poisoning or diarrhea? They don't. Its all made up crap.

And wtf are they doing using a crossbow? Crossbows weren't invented for 74,000 years AFTER that person died.

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:29 am

Dead man is dead. Bury dead man. Village no like dead man above ground. Bring bad spirits...bad!

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:41 am

http://essayweb.net/history/ancient/prehistory_03.shtml

Their toolset was fairly large, consisting of the older crusher/scrapers/pounders, as well as projectile points, serrated blades (better to saw through wood or bone), backed knives (with one end rounded off, to better fit in the hand), as well as several kinds of awls, which were probably used to make holes in hides (with implications for clothing manufacture). Neanderthals generally used soft percussors, made from bone or antler, rather than hard hammer stones. This allowed them finer control over the shaped pieces of stone. There is some evidence that Neanderthals used wood extensively, although the evidence is patchy, since wood does not preserve well.

It is unknown if Neanderthals had projectile weapons. They certainly created spears, but it appears that the spears were primarily used for thrusting at close quarters, rather than throwing. There is one case however, of a Levallois point embedded in a vertebra that indicates that the point went in on a parabolic trajectory, which may imply that the spear was thrown. We know that projectile weapons have been used since long before the Neanderthals (400,000 year old wooden projectile spears found in SchÃ¶ningen in Germany), so this is not necessarily a criticism of their technology. Many modern humans (such as Maori tribesmen today) use spears primarily for thrusting, not throwing, which simply reflects a different style of hunting.

And there is also the Dorset people, a sort of paleoeskimo who used spears only thrusted, not thrown. And given the above that homo erectus used thrown spears some 325 thousand years earlier ... I say it is all crap. people throw things.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:39 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:You're not an archaeologist. I am not an expert, but I've studied some books on the subject.

Yay, join the rest of us amateurs!

Actually, I have done some field work.

Glittering Clitoris · Post by **Glittering Clitoris** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:00 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote:You're not an archaeologist. I am not an expert, but I've studied some books on the subject.
Yay, join the rest of us amateurs!

Actually, I have done some field work. 8)

Personal experience perferred!

You know, this argument is actually funny arguing about whether interspecies violence occured over 50,000 ago.

I'm sending an email to Larry Lahren. The paleotologist that first studied the Anzick site in Montana- the longest and oldest continuously clovis site in North America. If he responds maybe we can have an experts opinion on this manner.

AIIZ

dvd-r · Post by **dvd-r** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:18 am

Glittering Clitoris wrote:.......I'm sending an email to Larry Lahren. The paleotologist that first studied the Anzick site in Montana- the longest and oldest continuously clovis site in North America. If he responds maybe we can have an experts opinion on this manner.

AIIZ

I'm sorry, but I had this image of Mr Lahren's wife looking at his email and see a message from "glittering clitoris". what will she think?

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:31 am

dvd-r wrote:
Glittering Clitoris wrote:.......I'm sending an email to Larry Lahren. The paleotologist that first studied the Anzick site in Montana- the longest and oldest continuously clovis site in North America. If he responds maybe we can have an experts opinion on this manner.

AIIZ
I'm sorry, but I had this image of Mr Lahren's wife looking at his email and see a message from "glittering clitoris". what will she think?

I'm sure she will get a laugh. I once appeared in a show skitch with him. He was dresses in a Tootoo!

AIIZ

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:12 pm

poo poo poo

edited because of poo

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:15 pm

Glittering Clitoris wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote:You're not an archaeologist. I am not an expert, but I've studied some books on the subject.
Yay, join the rest of us amateurs!

Actually, I have done some field work.

Personal experience perferred!

You know, this argument is actually funny arguing about whether interspecies violence occured over 50,000 ago.

I'm sending an email to Larry Lahren. The paleotologist that first studied the Anzick site in Montana- the longest and oldest continuously clovis site in North America. If he responds maybe we can have an experts opinion on this manner. http://www.homotron.net/images/homotron ... howers.jpg

AIIZ

OMG. The SOCK is talking to himself and answering himself......