No direct experience.
Very interesting though.
Guns, Love Em or Leave Em
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Absolut Jeenyus
- Posts: 389
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SilverOrange
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:38 pm
- Location: Chelsea
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Absolut Jeenyus
- Posts: 389
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can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
We all know that the "feeling" on the street is important. I got this in mail;
Note From a Cop
The fear on the street is palpable. Ever since the election of Barack Obama
as President of these United States in November 2008, coupled with the
election of a democrat party majority in both the U.S. House and Senate,
concern for the United States and personal safety has ignited like a fire in
dry grass.
Sales of guns - black guns, rifles, shotguns and handguns (particularly 9mm)
everywhere, have gone through the roof. AR15s have literally flown off of
dealer shelves, and only now in the spring of 2009, have I seen the display
samples of ARs begin to reappear on the wall of my favorite shooting
emporium after the initial post election rush.
Manufacturers of ARs are still working to catch up and some of the major
suppliers are as much as 150,000 guns behind. Not only that, ammo is in the
shortest supply I have ever seen in the 43 years of my shooting life. Have
you recently tried to get 5.56mm, 9mm or even 380 ammo?
Supplies of 5.56mm and 9mm ammo are in short supply due to the black gun
buying craze; .380ACP because of the rise in people getting concealed carry
permits and the resurgence of interest in convenient 380 handguns like the
fine Ruger LCP. In fact, in doing a review of the Ruger LCP, my gun store
only had a small supply of ONE .380 round on hand, the Winchesters 95-grain
SXT, which they had just gotten in. Unfortunately, I had to do a 30-round
review of that pistol. There was none other to be found.
The 5.56mm was the first caliber to noticeably be in short supply. This was
first due to the war effort, the headlong adoption of 5.56mm rifles by law
enforcement agencies ever since the great LAPD bank robbery and shootout,
the general shooting public interest in and acceptance of the AR15 weapons
system along with a realization that yes, the AR does have sporting purpose,
and of course now, this new fear that is on the street. Sales of ARs also
went up following 9/11.
What is odd about this new fear is that it is not coming from the average
citizen gun owner out there, but it is coming from what to me is an almost
shocking source: street cops.
Street cops and SWAT cops that I know from various agencies - rural,
suburban and metro - in my area are scared. Cops that before Novembe
r 2008
never gave much thought (that I knew of anyway) to politics or more
importantly to gun rights. For the most part, these are the guys that didn't
generally have any interest in shooting or gun ownership beyond keeping
track of where their duty gun is, and a few of them didn't even do that so
well.
The guys I am talking about now are some of the same guys who used to not
even carry off duty on a regular basis- but not anymore. They don't scare
easily, defenders of the Constitution of this State and the United States
(as our oath of office reads), have been buying ARs, survival gear, and all
the ammo they can lay their hands on. All of them (or I should say "us")
have been discussing and have been acquiring guns to provide a layered
perimeter defense.
We want something in .308 (or in my case a superb M1 Garand in .30-06) for
covering the outer perimeters, 5.56mm weapons for mid-range use (for some
with more limited funds, the AK-47 and 7.62×39 cartridge will suffice), and
for the close up stuff shotguns and handguns (love my Benelli M4 Tactical
and Beretta 92 9mm).
What are we suddenly so afraid of? Well in our discussions it seems to boil
down to four areas.
First, fear of federal government intrusion into our lives. Every time I
look at or listen to the news, there is something new and intrusive coming
out of the Obama administration and this Congress. New tax schemes,
government-run Canadian-style
healthcare, a volunteer citizen defense force
(whatever that is, what happened to the National Guard?) equipped with
funding similar to our military, forced voluntary "service" after
retirement, a lack of a southern border with hordes of illegal and criminal
aliens pouring over our border, the swine flu scare as well as government
forced closing of thousands of privately held Chrysler and GM dealerships,
which will be the final nail in the coffin for these companies and the list
goes on and on.
But these items in the news are just the tip of the iceberg. We can't see
the full impact of these actions yet, but we don't know what was added into
the thousand of pages of stimulus package bills in the dead of night yet. I
predict however that when the plans contained in the stimulus packages go
into effect, a lot of us are going to be surprised if not shocked by what
has suddenly and sweepingly changed.
What also scares us is the second, well-founded fear that there is an
assault weapons ban looming, one that would make the Clinton Ban appear like
a look of disdain in comparison. I remember well the 1990s and the Clinton
years: the rise of militia groups, the "black helicopter" rumors and
paranoia, all of which was motivated by the Brady Law and the Assault
Weapon's ban. What if a new ban comes requiring registration or confiscation
and turn-in of banned weapons as what happened in Australia?
I watched cops and citizens alike purchase these
guns at $900 dollars and
more, with custom or tricked out guns easily running into the $2,000 range.
Then add on all the accessories, red dots, lights, slings and anything else
you can name and you may have up to $3,000 wrapped up in your rig. I saw the
looks in their eyes. These purchasers weren't spending this kind of money
just to turn in the guns for no compensation when a government tells them
to. I foresee much civil disobedience coming down the road.
Americans are citizens, and not subjects like the British, Canadians or
Australians. They just don't always obey the law blindly and not one officer
or citizen that I spoke to said anything like "I hope I get to keep this gun
for awhile before they are banned; They are fun to shoot, so I would hate to
give it up." It isn't going to happen, so the cop on the street and the
soldier on the base needs to think now what he will do if the orders come
down. I think you all get what I am saying here.
Which leads me to the third fear, that there is a revolution coming, yes, a
revolution on the scale of the original American Revolution. You can hear
this topic discussed on many of the talk radio shows by even the big name
hosts. The possibility of an armed revolution against the U.S. government is
being discussed, albeit very gingerly and fleetingly and as something to be
avoided, which it is. I never heard this mentioned in the 90s.
One of my quietest, low profil
e officer friends brought it up the other day.
He said that at some point in the near future, he felt there is going to be
an armed revolt if things keep going the way they are. Something has got to
give. I was shocked. Yes, I had heard this from some of my more radical cop
friends in the past, but to hear it from a guy like this was unprecedented.
Now, these guys are not saying this will happen to foment revolution, preach
sedition or to even participate. They just want to be ready if it happens,
to at least defend their families, because number four on the fear list is
general societal chaos.
Cops fear for their parents, wives, children or grandchildren more now than
ever before. Most cops are encouraging their spouses and loved ones to get
concealed carry permits. Not only that, but some of these same cops are
buying gun mounts for their personal cars so they can carry an AR in the
family ride at the ready all the time. They are also strapping on heavier
forms of off-duty hardware. I have other friends that are issued ARs or
subguns for tactical team use, who always have their gear with them and are
planning on just commandeering these weapons for personal use in defending
hearth and home.
Final Notes
This is pretty heady and maybe even dangerous stuff. Know fully that I am
not advocating anything here. I am reflecting to you what I see and hear
going on around me, and maybe saying things that haven't been sai
d in the
open, until now. It is something to think about.
Written By; Scott Wagner is a Police Academy Commander and Professor at
Columbus State Community College in Columbus Ohio, and Commander of the 727
Counter Terror Training Unit. A 29 year law enforcement veteran, and
current Deputy Sheriff, he is the Precision Marksman for the Union County
Sheriff's Office SRT Team.
Note From a Cop
The fear on the street is palpable. Ever since the election of Barack Obama
as President of these United States in November 2008, coupled with the
election of a democrat party majority in both the U.S. House and Senate,
concern for the United States and personal safety has ignited like a fire in
dry grass.
Sales of guns - black guns, rifles, shotguns and handguns (particularly 9mm)
everywhere, have gone through the roof. AR15s have literally flown off of
dealer shelves, and only now in the spring of 2009, have I seen the display
samples of ARs begin to reappear on the wall of my favorite shooting
emporium after the initial post election rush.
Manufacturers of ARs are still working to catch up and some of the major
suppliers are as much as 150,000 guns behind. Not only that, ammo is in the
shortest supply I have ever seen in the 43 years of my shooting life. Have
you recently tried to get 5.56mm, 9mm or even 380 ammo?
Supplies of 5.56mm and 9mm ammo are in short supply due to the black gun
buying craze; .380ACP because of the rise in people getting concealed carry
permits and the resurgence of interest in convenient 380 handguns like the
fine Ruger LCP. In fact, in doing a review of the Ruger LCP, my gun store
only had a small supply of ONE .380 round on hand, the Winchesters 95-grain
SXT, which they had just gotten in. Unfortunately, I had to do a 30-round
review of that pistol. There was none other to be found.
The 5.56mm was the first caliber to noticeably be in short supply. This was
first due to the war effort, the headlong adoption of 5.56mm rifles by law
enforcement agencies ever since the great LAPD bank robbery and shootout,
the general shooting public interest in and acceptance of the AR15 weapons
system along with a realization that yes, the AR does have sporting purpose,
and of course now, this new fear that is on the street. Sales of ARs also
went up following 9/11.
What is odd about this new fear is that it is not coming from the average
citizen gun owner out there, but it is coming from what to me is an almost
shocking source: street cops.
Street cops and SWAT cops that I know from various agencies - rural,
suburban and metro - in my area are scared. Cops that before Novembe
r 2008
never gave much thought (that I knew of anyway) to politics or more
importantly to gun rights. For the most part, these are the guys that didn't
generally have any interest in shooting or gun ownership beyond keeping
track of where their duty gun is, and a few of them didn't even do that so
well.
The guys I am talking about now are some of the same guys who used to not
even carry off duty on a regular basis- but not anymore. They don't scare
easily, defenders of the Constitution of this State and the United States
(as our oath of office reads), have been buying ARs, survival gear, and all
the ammo they can lay their hands on. All of them (or I should say "us")
have been discussing and have been acquiring guns to provide a layered
perimeter defense.
We want something in .308 (or in my case a superb M1 Garand in .30-06) for
covering the outer perimeters, 5.56mm weapons for mid-range use (for some
with more limited funds, the AK-47 and 7.62×39 cartridge will suffice), and
for the close up stuff shotguns and handguns (love my Benelli M4 Tactical
and Beretta 92 9mm).
What are we suddenly so afraid of? Well in our discussions it seems to boil
down to four areas.
First, fear of federal government intrusion into our lives. Every time I
look at or listen to the news, there is something new and intrusive coming
out of the Obama administration and this Congress. New tax schemes,
government-run Canadian-style
healthcare, a volunteer citizen defense force
(whatever that is, what happened to the National Guard?) equipped with
funding similar to our military, forced voluntary "service" after
retirement, a lack of a southern border with hordes of illegal and criminal
aliens pouring over our border, the swine flu scare as well as government
forced closing of thousands of privately held Chrysler and GM dealerships,
which will be the final nail in the coffin for these companies and the list
goes on and on.
But these items in the news are just the tip of the iceberg. We can't see
the full impact of these actions yet, but we don't know what was added into
the thousand of pages of stimulus package bills in the dead of night yet. I
predict however that when the plans contained in the stimulus packages go
into effect, a lot of us are going to be surprised if not shocked by what
has suddenly and sweepingly changed.
What also scares us is the second, well-founded fear that there is an
assault weapons ban looming, one that would make the Clinton Ban appear like
a look of disdain in comparison. I remember well the 1990s and the Clinton
years: the rise of militia groups, the "black helicopter" rumors and
paranoia, all of which was motivated by the Brady Law and the Assault
Weapon's ban. What if a new ban comes requiring registration or confiscation
and turn-in of banned weapons as what happened in Australia?
I watched cops and citizens alike purchase these
guns at $900 dollars and
more, with custom or tricked out guns easily running into the $2,000 range.
Then add on all the accessories, red dots, lights, slings and anything else
you can name and you may have up to $3,000 wrapped up in your rig. I saw the
looks in their eyes. These purchasers weren't spending this kind of money
just to turn in the guns for no compensation when a government tells them
to. I foresee much civil disobedience coming down the road.
Americans are citizens, and not subjects like the British, Canadians or
Australians. They just don't always obey the law blindly and not one officer
or citizen that I spoke to said anything like "I hope I get to keep this gun
for awhile before they are banned; They are fun to shoot, so I would hate to
give it up." It isn't going to happen, so the cop on the street and the
soldier on the base needs to think now what he will do if the orders come
down. I think you all get what I am saying here.
Which leads me to the third fear, that there is a revolution coming, yes, a
revolution on the scale of the original American Revolution. You can hear
this topic discussed on many of the talk radio shows by even the big name
hosts. The possibility of an armed revolution against the U.S. government is
being discussed, albeit very gingerly and fleetingly and as something to be
avoided, which it is. I never heard this mentioned in the 90s.
One of my quietest, low profil
e officer friends brought it up the other day.
He said that at some point in the near future, he felt there is going to be
an armed revolt if things keep going the way they are. Something has got to
give. I was shocked. Yes, I had heard this from some of my more radical cop
friends in the past, but to hear it from a guy like this was unprecedented.
Now, these guys are not saying this will happen to foment revolution, preach
sedition or to even participate. They just want to be ready if it happens,
to at least defend their families, because number four on the fear list is
general societal chaos.
Cops fear for their parents, wives, children or grandchildren more now than
ever before. Most cops are encouraging their spouses and loved ones to get
concealed carry permits. Not only that, but some of these same cops are
buying gun mounts for their personal cars so they can carry an AR in the
family ride at the ready all the time. They are also strapping on heavier
forms of off-duty hardware. I have other friends that are issued ARs or
subguns for tactical team use, who always have their gear with them and are
planning on just commandeering these weapons for personal use in defending
hearth and home.
Final Notes
This is pretty heady and maybe even dangerous stuff. Know fully that I am
not advocating anything here. I am reflecting to you what I see and hear
going on around me, and maybe saying things that haven't been sai
d in the
open, until now. It is something to think about.
Written By; Scott Wagner is a Police Academy Commander and Professor at
Columbus State Community College in Columbus Ohio, and Commander of the 727
Counter Terror Training Unit. A 29 year law enforcement veteran, and
current Deputy Sheriff, he is the Precision Marksman for the Union County
Sheriff's Office SRT Team.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
-
cowboyangel
- Posts: 6986
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 10:32 pm
Interesting. Scott espouses or simply repeats a lot of right wing hate radio notions like illegal immigration running rampant, "Canadian" style health care. Give me a fucking break. The real enemy sit in posh offices on Wall St. and corporate board offices. It is they who plot deepening schemes to control the spending and value of money. It is they who won California's dire solution to its budget crisis. The people who are buying all these guns need to fear themselves before they start fearing the black helicopter guys. As the economy crashes further and the poor and middle income poor are pushed into more desperate acts, it is they who will become feared. Not Government goon squads. Yeah, the goon squads will come in but only after civil unrest necessitates it. The people who seem bent on organizing around guns are stupidly buying the hate rhetoric of the nut case right, who are easily manipulated by the very ruling class who are bringing the economy down. It's sick.
If you own a gun or guns, for God's sake learn how to use them safely and learn tactical strategies, because without that, your guns are useless.
If you own a gun or guns, for God's sake learn how to use them safely and learn tactical strategies, because without that, your guns are useless.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981
-
Absolut Jeenyus
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:01 pm
- Location: San 4ranc15co
- Contact:
Well, I got in the .380.
Can't afford it, cant afford to not have it.
The police don't seem interested in even prosecuting my next door burglars now.
I'm still backordered, so I bought one that came in locally, by chance.
Had to get the green frame.
My appeal just cleared.
They are now checking EVERYONE in the nation for ANY possible domestic incidents, so almost everyone gets rejected now.
Expect huge delays.
My Corbon DPX arrived an hour after I got home.
Self-defense .380 ammo is out all over the country.
I ordered direct from Corbon and got lucky.
It's almost impossible to find any .380 ammo anywhere.
I'll add an armalaser to this one before the 9mm.
Stunningly easy to carry.
I hope they pass the Federal Carry Law.
Is it legal to carry on Federal Park and BLM land yet?
Can't afford it, cant afford to not have it.
The police don't seem interested in even prosecuting my next door burglars now.
I'm still backordered, so I bought one that came in locally, by chance.
Had to get the green frame.
My appeal just cleared.
They are now checking EVERYONE in the nation for ANY possible domestic incidents, so almost everyone gets rejected now.
Expect huge delays.
My Corbon DPX arrived an hour after I got home.
Self-defense .380 ammo is out all over the country.
I ordered direct from Corbon and got lucky.
It's almost impossible to find any .380 ammo anywhere.
I'll add an armalaser to this one before the 9mm.
Stunningly easy to carry.
I hope they pass the Federal Carry Law.
Is it legal to carry on Federal Park and BLM land yet?
-
cowboyangel
- Posts: 6986
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 10:32 pm
-
cowboyangel
- Posts: 6986
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 10:32 pm
Legalize this:
http://www.defensereview.com/auto-assau ... on-system/
http://www.defensereview.com/auto-assau ... on-system/
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981
-
can't sit still
- Posts: 4645
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
- Location: SoCal
-
cowboyangel
- Posts: 6986
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 10:32 pm
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
Guns are to murder as blenders are to drunk driving.
Yes, I am sure some drunk drivers used a blender in the course of their inebriation but should we all be deprived of the use of blenders as a consequence?
Personally, my feeling is that the right to bear arms is the ultimate check on the federal government. The founders made sure that right was in there to make politicians fear an armed population. I have no problem with people having any arms that the Army has. I also favor EXTREME penalties for the abuse of that responsibility and favor very harsh treatment for people who use arms in the course of criminal activity.
Yes, I am sure some drunk drivers used a blender in the course of their inebriation but should we all be deprived of the use of blenders as a consequence?
Personally, my feeling is that the right to bear arms is the ultimate check on the federal government. The founders made sure that right was in there to make politicians fear an armed population. I have no problem with people having any arms that the Army has. I also favor EXTREME penalties for the abuse of that responsibility and favor very harsh treatment for people who use arms in the course of criminal activity.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
The other thing guns did was cause a great equalization and eliminate intimidation. A scrawny pipsqueak could pack as much firepower as a giant. If a person could shoot someone from 100 yards away, how big and intimidating they were doesn't matter.
Guns ultimately give all people equal access to the same amount of power.
Guns ultimately give all people equal access to the same amount of power.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
Eyeglasses make people weak. Humanity degenerates, goes blind without glasses.
Good eyesight is genetically expensive. Eyesight gets only as good as needed. If good eyesight isn't needed, it isn't produced. Good eyesight is a recessive trait.
Only the poorest of tribes have good eyesight.
Good eyesight is genetically expensive. Eyesight gets only as good as needed. If good eyesight isn't needed, it isn't produced. Good eyesight is a recessive trait.
Only the poorest of tribes have good eyesight.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
-
geekster
- Posts: 4865
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
- Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
- Contact:
Those who would outlaw guns today are akin to those who would outlaw crossbows in the middle ages. They gave the riffraff power to kill the armed and trained aristocracy and were thought "evil". An unskilled person could aim a crossbow and kill a highly trained nobleman with as good accuracy and more killing power than a skilled archer with a conventional bow.
Same with guns. The people in power fear an armed population.
As it should.
Same with guns. The people in power fear an armed population.
As it should.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
You no see what I say. Open eyes.
Chief no afraid. Weak people afraid, need gun. Easy to kill. Burn down house, steal food, start war. No need law for gun. Steal gun.
You got chief you want kill? What he do to you? You afraid? Move and join new tribe, new chief...if you no want move, you kill chief, you be chief. I think maybe you never kill. Killing easy, living hard!
Chief no afraid. Weak people afraid, need gun. Easy to kill. Burn down house, steal food, start war. No need law for gun. Steal gun.
You got chief you want kill? What he do to you? You afraid? Move and join new tribe, new chief...if you no want move, you kill chief, you be chief. I think maybe you never kill. Killing easy, living hard!
-
cowboyangel
- Posts: 6986
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 10:32 pm
-
ygmir
- Posts: 30403
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
- Burning Since: 2007
- Camp Name: qqqq
- Location: nevada county
yeah, hahaha, bring a spear to a gun fight.........Oldguy wrote:no gun....spear!
"God may have created man, but, Samuel Colt made them all equal".........
I don't know who said it, but, it's true...........
yes, the government should fear an armed populace.
the line between freedom and tryranny and all that.......
I'm with Geekster, and, agree with C.A.........nice.........
YGMIR
Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
-
ygmir
- Posts: 30403
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
- Burning Since: 2007
- Camp Name: qqqq
- Location: nevada county
*noting the door of misinformation, stereotyping, whining, and predjudice squeaking open*......Oldguy wrote:law enforcement is one of the last harbors for racial bigots, of course they hate the black man with a gun, or a brown man for that matter...
where is Pandora when you need her?
YGMIR
Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
Unabashed Nordic
Pagan