The Health Care Bill

[ygmir]

Hint, hint.?? I posted info straight from the GOV info page. You aren't implying that GOV would lie,,,, are you? But, it's true; you read something in 1 minute and the spend 4 hours looking for corroboration. One of the sources that tries to be accurate is shadow stats.
http://www.shadowstats.com/
GOV flat out quit posting M-3 money 16 months ago. The methods for reporting inflation and unemployment are beyond bizarre. The numbers are interesting but, the most important thing is one's personal situation. I never did trust GOV to treat me fairly, so, I'm not surprised or disappointed. I saw this coming 4 years ago, so, I got ready. I feel bad for all those who have no future. I've prepared a place so I can help friends and family. I would prefer to go back to world travel, but, I can't abandon the kids to be hedonistic.
The bankers ruined my playtime

*shy and demure man in the back row, tentatively raises hand and nods in agreement*

[can't sit still]

ygmir, when was the last time t hat somebody accused you of being shy and demure?
"The congressional probe found that just three firms had rescinded more than 20,000 policyholders between 2003 and 2007, saving hundreds of millions. "That's a lot of money that will now go towards their profits," Potter said."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... ack-change

[ygmir]

I guess the last time I posted a pic........

[littleflower]

Hint, hint.?? I posted info straight from the GOV info page. You aren't implying that GOV would lie,,,, are you? But, it's true; you read something in 1 minute and the spend 4 hours looking for corroboration. One of the sources that tries to be accurate is shadow stats.
http://www.shadowstats.com/
GOV flat out quit posting M-3 money 16 months ago. The methods for reporting inflation and unemployment are beyond bizarre. The numbers are interesting but, the most important thing is one's personal situation. I never did trust GOV to treat me fairly, so, I'm not surprised or disappointed. I saw this coming 4 years ago, so, I got ready. I feel bad for all those who have no future. I've prepared a place so I can help friends and family. I would prefer to go back to world travel, but, I can't abandon the kids to be hedonistic.
The bankers ruined my playtime

who reads something in 1 minute and spends 4 hours looking for corroboration? where did that come from? i agreed with you about the interest looking too low, and a definite mistrust in government reporting! my favorite thing about those graphs were the absurdly large amounts of "other discretionary programs" and "other mandatory programs", which total 34.5% of the budget. wtf?

where we differ is that you seem to believe every contrary source, while i don't believe anyone. there are a great many numbers, and far too many ways of emphasizing some while ignoring others. there are hundreds of experts, and many different conclusions. there is truth, but i don't see how anyone can point to any one source and say "these guys are the most accurate." how do you know?

the real joke is how many people would actually trust the government with a huge new bureaucracy like that which would be required with health care. i find it just sad....

[Apollonaris Zeus]

So far the plan will give FREE health care to those under $14,000. That's great. We will see a major change in the health and life expectancy of minorities which has always been skewered because of poor health care.

Now when they get poisoned at a restaurant with hate gang members serving tainted food, they can get a blood test.

Bout' time!

AIIZ

[ygmir]

So far the plan will give FREE health care to those under $14,000. That's great. We will see a major change in the health and life expectancy of minorities which has always been skewered because of poor health care.

Now when they get poisoned at a restaurant with hate gang members serving tainted food, they can get a blood test.

Bout' time!

AIIZ

you mean like when Jesse Jackson spit in peoples soup when he was a busboy?

(or the scene from Driving miss Daisy?)

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Don't know about that, but I do know about the KKK poisoning water supplies in black communities and Nazi's poisoning people in bars and restaurants!

AIIZ

[ygmir]

so are you saying only "white" or "right" groups do this?
I'm just wondering how wide a brush you paint with?

or,
are you saying they "do it more or worse"?
And, if so, is it ok as long as a group doesn't do it as much?

It's a horrid, cowardly thing to do.......but, I'd not be so quick to exclusively attach such acts to a certain group or race........

[geekster]

I have two suggestions that I believe would greatly reduce medical insurance for everyone:

1. Require healthy people who have insurance available to them and can afford it to have it. Healthy people who require less services paying into the system reduces the costs to everyone. In fact, that is the crux of the government's plan but we don't need government control of the insurance in order to make that requirement.

2. Instead of having government own the health insurance industry, have them own the malpractice insurance industry instead. Government would soon put regulations in place that would cut down on the number of idiotic and often fraudulent suits and again reduce costs for everyone.

That should be it right there. Health insurance would be more affordable for everyone and a huge chunk of the "uninsured" would then be covered.

[DoriumLux]

Now when they get poisoned at a restaurant with hate gang members serving tainted food, they can get a blood test.

Bout' time!

AIIZ

What the hell does that even mean? What are you getting at here?

[Apollonaris Zeus]

so are you saying only "white" or "right" groups do this?
I'm just wondering how wide a brush you paint with?

or,
are you saying they "do it more or worse"?
And, if so, is it ok as long as a group doesn't do it as much?

It's a horrid, cowardly thing to do.......but, I'd not be so quick to exclusively attach such acts to a certain group or race........

ygmir if you wish to infer your own thoughts then do so but don't put words in my mouth or my posts.

I said what I said. Live with it or post what you will.

AIIZ

[ygmir]

so are you saying only "white" or "right" groups do this?
I'm just wondering how wide a brush you paint with?

or,
are you saying they "do it more or worse"?
And, if so, is it ok as long as a group doesn't do it as much?

It's a horrid, cowardly thing to do.......but, I'd not be so quick to exclusively attach such acts to a certain group or race........

ygmir if you wish to infer your own thoughts then do so but don't put words in my mouth or my posts.

I said what I said. Live with it or post what you will.

AIIZ

I had no intent to put words in your mouth, etc......and, if I so did, certainly would appologize.

In fact, I thought I took care to make it a jeopardy worthy sentence/answer.......

I was asking for parameters, if there were any, to your accusations and, implications of a dastardly act.

you tend(ed) to use only the groups I mention as perpetrators of these heinous acts, and, IMHO, therefore imply they alone use this tactic.

I suppose I was also opening the door to see if you would allow that many such groups, of all racial, economic, social, political, etc., backgrounds commit random acts against others, purely for idealogical/predjudicial reasons.

As far as inferring my own thoughts, well, I'd say that's why I responded as I did.
To see if we could agree, as I beleive, that hate and cowardly random acts against others is a "human" problem, not limited to any one group.

to me, acknowledging so much of this as "across the board", and, wrong, allows it to be addresses more universally.
I'm good with "evereyone" losing the "hate"......but, I think "everyone" has to, or, it'll not go away........

*yikes, steps down of soapbox and trundles away*

[Apollonaris Zeus]

You know of an organized minority hate gang that is poisoning white people?

If so then take this to the "Lets Make Burning Man a Hate Free Zone" for this would constitute topic drift and is out of suject matter of this topic's

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Well it seems the real fascist are disrupting the town meetings. Those that oppose Nationalized Health Care. They are the puppets of the Republicans- you know the Tea Baggers!

All they are going to do is make the president have the Democratically control congress to pass a Partisan Bill.

71% of Americans want Health Reform!

Only the Fascist Tea Baggers don't not want a dialog.

They only want it their way or no way and it's no nationalized health insurance for America's Labor Slaves to Big Business!

A very good friend of mine that was recently laid off with health problems filed for bankruptcy has no health insurance.

He's fucked, but he'll be there when Obama comes into town to pressure Bachus into action along with the labor Movement next week.

Tea Baggers you're outnumbered in the polls and will be shouted down in the town halls and dragged out of the building and into the Paddy Wagon.

Fucking anti-constitutional Fascists trying to stop Free Speech and the Right to Peaceful Assembly!

Fuck YOU!

AIIZ

[stargeezer]

I look at this issue from a different direction.

Why is it that employers are currently expected to cover the cost of our health care? The reason health care costs are so high is that it is transparent to a significant portion of the population who burden the system every time they have a minor problem and pay practically nothing for the service. If employers quit providing health insurance, everyone would be hit with the cost, and all would be screaming for universal health care, problem solved.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Some employers just can't afford insurance. I know because I've been there and at times I had to drop my own insurance when times were tough as they are now. So...

Get everyone on the plan

pay according to income

only the poorest pay nothing

the rest of us pay something (deductable) at the time of the visit

No one goes uncovered, no bankruptcies due to health and families stay together!

AIIZ

[Apollonaris Zeus]

the republican tea baggers are fucking lying:

For Representative Steve Kagen, Democrat of Wisconsin, Mr. Gibbs’s criticism rang true.

After he faced heckling during a heated discussion about health care at a forum on Thursday, Mr. Kagen was confronted by a vocal opponent named Heather Blish, who identified herself as “just a mom from a few blocks awayâ€

[lurker]

Fucking anti-constitutional Fascists trying to stop Free Speech and the Right to Peaceful Assembly!

You are kidding, right?

One can find thousands of examples of violent leftist protest on the web, thousands of examples of the left shouting down speakers that they don't agree with--and thousands of examples of people justifying that shouting down.

The left routinely 'dissents' to the point of rioting--why shouldn't the right join in? After all, for the last eight years you've been telling them that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

You should be happy that they're listening.

If Bush had tried to ram through the exact same bill(s), you all would have been out there in the streets screaming about all the invasive power that this gives the government--invasive power that you support now because your duys are in power and you cannot concieve of the idea that they would act against you.

71% of the people want some kind of reform in the healthcare industry--but how many want this exact type of reform?

I want reform that gets rid of the high cost of healthcare by removing the legions of bureacrats who have to be paid every time I walk into my doctor's office.

I want NO insurance. In fields where doctors have to compete prices respond to market forces and are continually getting cheaper and better.

A day will come when I can get an operation that'll give me 20/20 vision or better for a reasonable cost--because THAT specialty has to compete.

The govedrnment cannot control the market--but it can kill it. And once that is done, civilization will soon follow.

[ygmir]

yeah, funny how one side forgets how protest is advocated, when, they disagree..........

I like dissent from both sides........after all, we're all getting screwed.....it's just who protests depends on what sort of sex they like.......

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Fucking anti-constitutional Fascists trying to stop Free Speech and the Right to Peaceful Assembly!

You are kidding, right?

One can find thousands of examples of violent leftist protest on the web, thousands of examples of the left shouting down speakers that they don't agree with--and thousands of examples of people justifying that shouting down.

The left routinely 'dissents' to the point of rioting--why shouldn't the right join in? After all, for the last eight years you've been telling them that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.



You're the one thats Kidding, Right! So you are now grouping yourself with extremists and saying that all people on the left agree with disrupting a dialog is the best form of dessent? I think the left is much intelligent then the right (education level is a fact) and don't riot after the ink has dried on the final document!

You should be happy that they're listening.

Who's listening? Have you watch the videos? If the officials could hear a question how could they respond with a response- a response that would debunk their coached questions? A shoutdown is not a dialog!

If Bush had tried to ram through the exact same bill(s),

What? Are you saying that bush would propose the "same bill(s)".
I don't think so!

71% of the people want some kind of reform in the healthcare industry--but how many want this exact type of reform?

I don't what you mean exactly "this exact type of reform?" I do know what all people do agree on and that is control the cost and the profit motivated inflation of those costs which is the tripled rise in cost of healthcare in just the last 15 years


I want reform that gets rid of the high cost of healthcare by removing the legions of bureacrats who have to be paid every time I walk into my doctor's office.

Can you elaborate on that statement. I'm innorant on which bureacrats get paid when you walk into the doctor's office unless you're thinking about the receptionist, nurse, labotomist, radiologist, Specialist overview and all the associated tests?

I want NO insurance. In fields where doctors have to compete prices respond to market forces and are continually getting cheaper and better.

You're dreaming of course? Nice to have no insurance until you a catastrophic illness then say goodbye to your home and savings.

More doctors can lower prices but who shops around when most doctors ask you to pay an initial first visit charge of up to several hundred dollars.

Besides with argument is about health insurance of which is that the private health insurance is about making a profit more so then about approving your eventual claim, of which, they will everything in their power to prevent.

Only a competing public insurance plans will motivate insurance companies into lowering your rate costs. Tort reform will help and I think that should be exacted, but nothing else will lower healthcare costs.

A day will come when I can get an operation that'll give me 20/20 vision or better for a reasonable cost--because THAT specialty has to compete.

Personally, again, I think you are dreaming unless we get more doctors to compete and doctors don't compete especially when you graduate with a half million student loan to pay off! We could estamblish a techician level degrees for some specialized treatments. Other than that, I see no way to quarantee lower costs.

The govedrnment cannot control the market--but it can kill it. And once that is done, civilization will soon follow.

Rise of the Barbarians!

www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck

[lurker]

You're the one thats Kidding, Right! So you are now grouping yourself with extremists and saying that all people on the left agree with disrupting a dialog is the best form of dessent? I think the left is much intelligent then the right (education level is a fact) and don't riot after the ink has dried on the final document!

Does "one can find thousands of examples" mean the same thing as 'all'? Oh.

Perhaps you should look into that education statistic you put forth. I did. The left has more PhDs than the right. It also has more high school dropouts than the right. The right tends to occupy the middle of the educational spectrum--while the left holds the ends. However, further research showed that the right held more high degrees in the hard sciences, while the left held more in the social sciences, education, and fluff subjects--like 'black' and 'women's' studies. Hardly intellectually rigorous disciplines.

And the left routinely protests after 'the ink has dried' on the final document Look at Prop 8.

Who's listening? Have you watch the videos? If the officials could hear a question how could they respond with a response- a response that would debunk their coached questions? A shoutdown is not a dialog!

You are correct. A shoutdown is not a dialogue. The right has been saying that for years--as their speakers have been shouted down. To which the left replied that if this was not allowed then 'dissent' was being quashed.

And, as we have been told over and over ad nauseum, Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Besides, we've also been told that some opinions don't deserve to be heard. David Horowitz heard that. As did Daniel Pipes, and Ann Coulter.

Shouting them down--even attacking them was a validid form of protest before January 20th....and now it's not.

'Coached' questions. How funny. As if the chants used to silence so many speakers from the right happened spontaneously. You are a wit, AIIZ.

What? Are you saying that bush would propose the "same bill(s)".
I don't think so!

Nooo....I don't believe I suggested anything like that. I'm beginning to see that you're not on the PhD side of the left's intellectual spectrum.

I offered an obvious 'what if' situation that referred to the invasive and cooercive powers that this bill will confer on the federal government. I know full well that had those powers come from the Republicans--however well dressed in health care reform--the left would have been up in arms over it.

A fact I believe you know as well--seeing how you cut that part from my post and failed to respond to it.

I don't what you mean exactly "this exact type of reform?" I do know what all people do agree on and that is control the cost and the profit motivated inflation of those costs which is the tripled rise in cost of healthcare in just the last 15 years

What people want is for their doctor visits and hospitalizations to not cost so much. That's all. That 'profit motivated inflation blather is one of those 'coached' points you don't like. People don't expect doctors to work for free.

And 'all' people clearly do NOT agree. So, next time you want to chide me for percieved sweeping generalizations, remember that you like them too.

Can you elaborate on that statement. I'm innorant on which bureacrats get paid when you walk into the doctor's office unless you're thinking about the receptionist, nurse, labotomist, radiologist, Specialist overview and all the associated tests?

Sure. Besides the people you mention in the doctors office, there's also the records clerk, the phone staff, and the cleaners, as well as the landlord, the doctor's malpractice lawyers, his malpractice insurance and his student loans.

But that's just his office. At the insurance company there's the mailroom, the clerks, the claims workers, the lawyers, the supervisors, the productivity team, the loss team, the fraud team....and the cleaners and the landlord.

And I've really simplified that.

And if you've got medicare as primary insurance there's a whole other bureacracy feeding on your simple office visit.

I've worked in healthcare. I've seen the endless layers--most of which have absolutely nothing to do with anything medical at all. I once was paid quite well to moniter a chart on claims worker's productivity--for 20 people. And there was someone like me for every 20 people. A full-time, 40+ hour a week job that needed about ten actual minutes of real work a day and a few hour once a month to assemble the data into a nice spreadsheet--when the entire job could have been done by having the workers put their numbers into that very same spreadsheet every night before they went home.

Bureacracy eating your healthcare dollars.

And the saddest part is that a lot of this bureacracy is mandated by the federal government.

Only a competing public insurance plans will motivate insurance companies into lowering your rate costs.

This is an oxymoron. A public insurance plan is a monopoly--and the two we have now run like they know it. In order for your doctor to get paid through medicaid/medicare he has to jump through a whole lot of hoops--missing any one of which will leave him eating the cost with no recourse--because the US government has some really deep pockets when it comes to paying it's lawyers. Even when he does hit all the hoops just right he will get a routine denial--and have to jump those hoops again. This happens at least once, in every case(the denial allows the government to not pay and keep the money in it's own coffers--and it also increases the possibility that the doctors office will screw up somehow thereby allowing them to not pay at all). This happens so often to doctors who take medicare/medicaid that they have to factor that into their prices--which means you(or your insurance provider) must pay more.

Worse, since so much of what private insurance companies do is also federally mandated, private companies can play a similar game

Which adds more to your cost.

See?

Doctors get paid well, when they get paid, because they keep us alive. What is that worth? What price another breath?

But with all the crap between them and patient's money, they have to charge to pay all those people who get that money FIRST. When you pay your $20 co-pay on an $80 office visit the doctor might not see his percentage of that other $60 for six months(and yes, percentage, he doesn't get it all--in a lot of cases he gets about $10 of it--which is what he pays HIS people with) That's why you might still pay a $20 co-pay and be shocked if you lose your insurance to discover that your doctor was charging your insurance company $200 an office visit--that way he gets the $80 he needs to keep his office running and himself alive.

Tort reform will help and I think that should be exacted, but nothing else will lower healthcare costs.

Loser pays! That's what we need. That'll kill a whole lot of 'malpractice' suits and settlements.

And getting rid of those bureacracies will absolutely lower costs.

As will competition.

Personally, again, I think you are dreaming unless we get more doctors to compete and doctors don't compete especially when you graduate with a half million student loan to pay off! We could estamblish a techician level degrees for some specialized treatments. Other than that, I see no way to quarantee lower costs.

Doctors compete in the plastic surgery, vision surgery, and various other 'uncovered' fields. The prices for those types of surgeries are going down, while the quality goes up.

I pay close attention here--I have a condition that keeps glasses from doing much for me--I just recently managed to get my vision to a point where I could qualify for a license. Visually corrective eye surgery has come along in leaps and bounds. I expect a 'cure' for me is coming.

Hell, if those fields remain uncovered, I expect that one day we'll all look however we want and have the perfect vision to enjoy how interesting everyone looks.

The answer to our health care 'crisis' is less--much less--government control, not more.

[lurker]

Wow, AIIZ, you had me going there for a minute, but I knew you guys still thought shouting down your opponents was a valid tactic--

http://www.seiu2001.org/Healthcare_Town ... Himes.aspx

Here's the text in case that goes down the memory-hole, from the SEIU--

Healthcare Town Hall Forum with Congressman Jim Himes
August 06, 2009, 5:30 PM - 7:00 PM
Stamford Senior Center, 888 Washington Blvd., Stamford, CT
Legislative Forum

Purpose: Congressional representatives are coordinating forums on the health insurance crisis around the state for constituents to come share their personal stories and hear proposed solutions being debated in Washington, DC.

Agenda: Congressman Jim Himes (D-4), who has already been hard at work organizing his peers in Washington DC for health insurance reform, will speak and listen to our concerns.

Action: Opponents of reform are organizing counter-demonstrators to speak at this and several congressional town halls on the issue to defend the status quo. It is critical that our members with real, personal stories about the need for access to quality, affordable care come out in strong numbers to drown out their voices.

"Healthcare 'Pooling' Works!"

US Representative Jim Himes (D-4)

Directions
Contact:

Communications Director Matt O'Connor
[email protected]
(800) 894-9479 ext. 129

Always good to lay a little astroturf, no? Helps one avoid all those pesky grass roots.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Call me a Wit!

Thanks for bringing down a discussion to name calling which is one of your tactics when you are losing.

So i'm not going to answer your simplistic answers that you don't back up with facts!

So, I'm plonking your ass, asshole!

Other's that wish to learn the facts from a non-radical nut-wing talk show host source, please go to this site:

www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck

of course it won't change the people that are against it of which I don't think are the majority of the right [71% means the marjority of the Right (and we know their numbers have dropped) want Change], just the Bot Republicans and dumb fucks like lurker!

AIIZ

[ygmir]

so, the link from the white house is not biased?........

this is an interesting exchange you're having.
quite informative, IMHO.........

to me, neither one of you is convincing, but, are sounding like the same song, from, different sides of the fence.........

not that that's bad, I don't mean it derogatory, I just mean your arguments are quite similar, in their opposing viewpoints........

I still think the whole thing boils down to socialism vs capitalism.....really........

reform is needed, the question, is, mostly, the mechanics.........IMHO.....

[geekster]

In the UK they just give you a pain pill and send you home.

This bill is a HUGE expense to capture a small number of people. It messes up the care of a large number of people to put a relatively small number of people into the system. The government generally screws up anything it touches. There has to be a better way. I don't mind reform but reform doesn't mean government management of health care. There are other things that can be done such as standardizing regulations across the states, allowing firms to operate nationally to gain larger groups which reduce cost, etc.

What this is really all about is that Medicare is going broke so they want to snare a huge group of people who aren't old and basically put them on Medicare while changing the medicare rules to justify withholding services for people who no longer pay into the system. The want more cash coming in per insured person, less cash going out per insured person.

It will play out like this:

Say you have cerebral palsy or downs syndrome. You slip a disk or develop an arthritic hip. They can put you on Oxycontin for the rest of your life for less money than a hip replacement or back surgery and that is what they will do, I have no doubt. That is consistent with the words of the people who are pushing this stuff.

Big pharma is 100% behind this because they stand to make a windfall in a system where they just give out pills. The number of Americans on anti-depressants has already doubled in the past 10 years and will likely double again on a system like this. Government oversight commissions will have a set of "canned" procedures for various ailments. They will instruct the doctor on what is allowed. You might get an exception and they will blow money on you IF you are young enough and not having the procedure will cost the government more money than giving it to you. Unless, that is, their quota for your age/race/occupation group is filled for this month.

The end result will probably be people getting "supplemental" coverage for what the government doesn't cover and now people will need to pay two premiums for what they used to get for one. But you will first need to go through the government system, be denied, and then go to your supplemental. And from what I have read so far, both the House and Senate bills STILL leave millions of people not covered.

It is about money, not health care. Politicians have been warning that Medicare needs to be overhauled the past 10 years. Here we are.

You also need to parse very carefully words such as "if you already have a health care plan that you like, then you can keep it". That is only partially true. 50% of Americans will change employers within 5 years. According to the way I read the current bill, you will not be allowed to get on one of your new employer's grandfathered private plans. But most importantly new workers entering the workforce don't have that option at all. It is very obviously a push to wean people off private plans onto the government managed plans even if they don't want it.

There should *always* be a private option and people should have a choice *always*.

[Oldguy]

I'm only in it for the double bacon cheeseburgers with a rootbeer float. Throw in some onion rings or steak fries and I'm golden. I"ll be dead in 20 yeaars probably. So you guys contact your representatives, and have them do whatever the fuck you want...or not.

[can't sit still]

There is a huge amount that could be done to reduce medical costs. GOV and the AMA won't allow them.
A few years ago, I got sick in Cali, Colombia. On return, I went to my homeopathic doctor. He recommended me to another doctor, iIiona Abraham. I went to her office and she explained that she was from eastern Europe. She had me hold 2 electrodes while a computer went through menus and sub-menus. She did a couple of cues or something.
I watched the screen pass through several highlights and then stop on salmonella. I opted for Keflexin rather than trying to subdue the bugs naturopathic. Fixed me right up. She isn't allowed to practice anymore even though she's licensed here.

In 1944, a lot of people were dying in the defense industry from heavy metal poisoning. GOV doctors invented a process called "chelation" The most common form is intravenous.
It leaches out all the bad stuff in the body, heavy metals and all. It somehow leaches out the right amount of other metals and compounds,,, never taking too much. It will clean out the arteries clean as a whistle... even behind the endothelium. It was used for decades with a perfect record of success.
So, of course, it's illegal in many states.
The deadly neurotoxin , aspartamine is approved . The FDA burned books on the safe sweetener , stevia. It has a centuries-long record of safety.
As long as the money-powers control GOV, do you expect health care to go down in cost?

[can't sit still]

I'm absolutely positive that I didn't double click !

[lurker]

to me, neither one of you is convincing, but, are sounding like the same song, from, different sides of the fence.........

I have to take exception to this, ygmir. I did not post a series of ill-thought out profanity laced posts whose basic point is that most people agree and want this healthcare bill to pass--whose only corroboration is the whitehouse site.

not that that's bad, I don't mean it derogatory, I just mean your arguments are quite similar, in their opposing viewpoints........

And my base argument is that everything that the protesters are doing are things that people like AIIZ supported, even lauded, when they came from the left.

Even the 'most people' point was derided when the left was in the minority.

Thanks for bringing down a discussion to name calling which is one of your tactics when you are losing.

This line is most telling after the random scattershot insulting and profanity that characterised AIIZs posts. He plonked me after the rather mild sarcastic use of 'wit'---while having rolled through the thread with insults and profanity directed at those who did not accept his premise.

It actually suggests that it is he who yells and insults when he's losing--because he clearly is.

That SEIU cite proves my point handily

Likewise, I did not dispute the 71% line--because it's true. But, alone, it's deceptive. I want healthcare reform--but I've shown that the reform I want--as PART of that 71%--is radically different from what he says 'most' people want. In polls, 'most' people do not want socialized healthcare when the question is put to them--even as they say they want reform. Again, my point is simple fact. And it is fact that allows for those who want socialized medicine to stand equally with all the rest who want healthcare reform.

Then there is the sad fact that these protests are largely moot. The Democrats can do what they want. The best we can hope for is that the passage of this thing, in the manner that it will be passed, will cause a rout in the 2010 elections that will allow this abomination to be repealed before too much damage is done.

Finally, please don't equate me with AIIZ. I can, and have produced cites for what I say(though they are largely ignored or derided) on my arguments. I don't refuse to answer and I try to speak to each point in the posts I respond to.

[Box Burner]

Oh yes massa, I 'll work real hard for you. All de live long day. thank you for taking such good care of me. I be the best worker you ever seen, 24 hours a day. yess siree. But pelase don't crack that whip so much.


























Can you say slave?