CRIME! GUNS! second amendment?

[Deb Prothero]

Me too, hugs for Smashy!

[Porschebug]

GRYRE, i've wondered about this, that liberal, as in liberty and libertarian, should call for gun freedom/liberty - i have a lefty friend dye hard democrat that WAS in the NRA but he got tired of the demo bashing that the NRA does... if they were less partisan maybe even more gun freedom would be had...

UGLY,

I guess your quote of me has a kind of right/left-left/right content to it, politically speaking, i am quite a mixture

NIERS/PLAYA TOM

i reserve the right to be "paranoid" after having not been "paranoid" enough and having two bikes ripped off over the years - good advice on your part, many will not heed your warning/advice and get ripped off

and i probably wouldn't shoot someone for robbing my bike, with a BB gun?, yes, and i qualified my butt shot with a short, which is the very weak .22 round, i guess i could have added subsonic also, shooting that in someone's butt would most likely never kill anyone.

i've heard of several .22 shots to the head and people surviving. in fact 80% of people shot by guns survive... and i've shot .44 mags and there is no comparison at all, i might rather be shot 6 times by a .22 than once by a .44... alright, maybe 3 times... i'd have to think about it...

TOM, what would you do if someone was ripping off your bike and you caught them? i was too easy on that kid, should of smacked him one, a bitch slap perhaps? then maybe he would not have laughed at me?

ABSOLUTE G.

i've tried to think that myself about my two stolen bikes, it plagued me for a very long time, but then i wanted to think it was a legitimate need (but how often is this true in america, starvation and all - probably crack heads took my bike...

CAP

i've had enough violence in my life, lots of stories i won't tell, and having lived in a city ranked 5th most criminal at the time, as per the FBI UNIFORM CRIME REPORT, i've seen enough - i still live in a crappy neighborhood, in fact cops pulled me over right in front of my house a few nights ago... checking me out, looking for the bad guys

- as to worry about a specific crime - you know, just use your imagination... maybe some PULP FICTION style crimes? freddy krueger?

florida recently forced employers to allow employees to have guns in their cars at the business parking lots where they work - this is all i wanted, a glove compartment gun, what i would usually have in florida anyway, legal for us anyway... maybe a tent gun for tent invaders?

yes of course, very remote chance of being a victim, even in a bad crime rate city like reno, where only 7% of all USA cities are worse (sheesh (with a roll of the eyes)...

i think its more sensible to allow the good guys to protect themselves - antigun laws only protect the criminals as per the context of the predator/victim possibility...

had to laugh at some of your stuff... thanks for deconstructing the mass shooting possibility at burning man

[CapSmashy]

GYRE,
- that makes sense and would be why guns SHOULD be allowed

its the people's land, really our land and you'd think the price of a ticket would count as some vote on this account

If you were simply going out for a camping trip on BLM governed lands, yes, firearms are typically allowed provided there is appropriate state laws allowing for the carrying and discharge of firearms. However, as your link shows, the BLM has the authority as the governing agency to over ride such permissions in the interest of public safety.

And while yes, public land is technically owned by all of us seeing as how we are the public, the BLM has been appointed as the governing agency to maintain these public lands on our behalf. I have a deep amount of respect for the job they do and the services they provide in these areas. They operate on shoestring budgets and are typically understaffed for their required roles as the caretakers of the land.

The point that you are missing here is that Burning Man is not a random camping trip out on public lands. Its a sanctioned, permitted event and as such, the permitting process allows the BLM to add addendums and structure provisions in the interest of public safety related to the event.

In the legal sense of the agreement that BORG enters into with the BLM, the BORG effectively owns that patch of desert for the duration of the permit and the pay handsomely for that ownership right. Once the permit goes into effect, the land is no longer public and subject to rules established by the permit and the rules of the event organizers. Even if BLM did not add a no firearm stipulation, BORG would be well within their legal rights to restrict firearms from their event and have such restrictions enforced by the BLM if necessary.

You buying a ticket is not a "vote". Your purchase of a ticket is an acknowledgment of the rules and requirements that have been established for the event and your voluntary agreement to comply with all said rules. Nothing more, noting less. If you break your ticket agreement and willfully violate the agreement you made with the event to comply with their rules and regulations established for their event, the event organization has full legal right to no longer allow you to participate in their event and have you removed from it.

you might be on to something, that as per driving through indian turf we also might have to consider this part of the ban on BLM land, connected...

No connection at all. Tribal lands are governed by tribal law in accordance with the treaties made between the tribes and the US government. The BLM has about as much influence over tribal land laws as I do over the price of tea in China.

TIMEZONE, the hippie trip comes from the 60s (my smart aleck response), but generation X put the hippie thing to an almost grinding halt. I speculate, based on extrapolation and previous empirical field research of varied observational techniques, that homo sapien hippie shall evolve most highly and disproportionately on the positive side, quantitatively speaking, upon the nevada desert within the next month. A higher percent of hippie representation, compared to the general population, shall be the demographic trend ad infinitum on a seasonal basis within the BM tradition. Perhaps i shall have peer review journal publications to back this claim some day...

To shred this response properly, one would first need to know exactly how you are defining the "hippie" label. I'll adopt a wait and see mode for this one.

college mass killings would be less possible with a few armed citizens, at least they might be LESS massive

Not likely. The target of opportunity would simply shift to a different venue of lessor resistance.

knowing the very intimate details of the cho slaughter and the pathetic attempts at survival during it in virginia and the profound sense of weakness and hopelessness in being so gunless gave further claim to our second amendment,

Wow... where to begin with this one...

For openers, pathetic attempts at survival? Where the fuck did you come up with that? I find you choice of words here utterly appalling.

i carry around a blade and pepper, but like they say, DON'T BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT - so i'm as good as naked when the bad guys with guns go for me...

So why are you sticking yourself into positions where the "bad guys" with gun will be "go" for you? Maintaining an awareness of your surroundings will keep you out of and get you out of more trouble than an arsenal of firearms ever will.

a liberal with a gun? then there is hope...

I'm desperately trying not to pigeonhole you, but remarks like this make it next to impossible.

[Deb Prothero]

i think its more sensible to allow the good guys to protect themselves - antigun laws only protect the criminals as per the context of the predator/victim possibility...

had to laugh at some of your stuff... thanks for deconstructing the mass shooting possibility at burning man

In Canada, we have anti-gun laws and it seems to work for us. Our crime rates are really quite low and certainly much lower than any American city. Biggest problem we have is criminals smuggling guns in over the American border - but even that is being slowed down considerably.

I'm not against guns and have even served in the militia as a range officer. But the idea of having guns at BM at its current size of participation sends shivers down my spine. There's just too much drug and alcohol consumption for guns to be a safe option there.

And while I did watch the firing line to destroy FrogBat at the 4th of Juplaya, I chose not to participate. The destruction of a much-loved life by guns is too fresh in my mind.

[Porschebug]

DEB

MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME

thats the title to a book that might be the best at showing statistically how this is true

one of the one main claims that can't hardly enter into the stats is brandishing a gun, this is what happens most all the time, people very rarely shoot - its many more times that guns are pulled and flashed, etc... and hardly ever shot and this is a deterrent that our NRA tries to claim happens something over a million times a year or whatever... i suppose enough of this is reported to extrapolate some greater number beyond the actual reports...

[Porschebug]

CAP

a person, esp. of the late 1960s, who rejected established institutions and values and sought spontaneity, direct personal relations expressing love, and expanded consciousness, often expressed externally in the wearing of casual, folksy clothing and of beads, headbands, used garments, etc.

thats the dictionary.com definition

wow!, seems to fit BM quite well don't you think? plus 40+ years

time to dream of hippies as i lay my head down to sleep, maybe i'll think of that rancid combination of Patchouli and sweat of the feral RAINBOW GATHERING kids that would eat krishna food on campus, as i did for SO MANY YEARS... eat that is, not smell so much - krishnas should serve at BM!, that would kick ass!

maybe i'll go line by line with you later, and we can do a freudian/gestalt/dianetic/jungian analysis of each other... sleep tight fellow NRA member

[Deb Prothero]

Porschebug;

Let me just reiterate: I am a Canadian and live in a gun-free culture. Frankly your country scares the shit out of me, most of the time.

I have to screw my courage up to go to Burning Man. It's the journey that scares me because I know once I get to Burning Man, it will be just like home for me. In other words, no guns.

Any book that purports that More Guns = Less Crime is full of shit. Look at our crime stats. Per capita crimes in Canada are way less than in your country. Legal guns for target shooting or hunting are registered and stored in locked cabinets. Illegal guns are still acquired by criminals by bringing them in across the border but now that is even slowing to a trickle.

There is not a single place in Canada that I would not walk through in the middle of the night without a gun or a knife. There are a handful of urban areas that I might want to walk through with a friend but I would still go there, if it was on my journey.

[CapSmashy]

GRYRE, i've wondered about this, that liberal, as in liberty and libertarian, should call for gun freedom/liberty - i have a lefty friend dye hard democrat that WAS in the NRA but he got tired of the demo bashing that the NRA does... if they were less partisan maybe even more gun freedom would be had...

Yes, they have an amazing propaganda machine. They even posted record setting collection of membership dues over the past 2 years from the bullshit they have been spewing and he new flock of sheeple they have brought into their fold.

CAP

i've had enough violence in my life, lots of stories i won't tell,

Yes, I'm sure the stories are fascinating. Have you ever thought to analyze the source or causation of the violence and look for your role in what happened? I'm going with no, you haven't since your apparent solution is the old stand by of "Ima gonna git me a gun and solve all my problems".

[uote]and having lived in a city ranked 5th most criminal at the time, as per the FBI UNIFORM CRIME REPORT,[/quote]

Oh my, all caps even.

i've seen enough - i still live in a crappy neighborhood,

The irony is golden here... served up on a silver platter even.

- as to worry about a specific crime - you know, just use your imagination... maybe some PULP FICTION style crimes? freddy krueger?

Do you always base your real world analysis based on what you see in movies? Interesting...

florida recently forced employers to allow employees to have guns in their cars at the business parking lots where they work - this is all i wanted, a glove compartment gun, what i would usually have in florida anyway, legal for us anyway... maybe a tent gun for tent invaders?

So you are all about your rights, but do not really care about the rights of private property owners. Interesting...

yes of course, very remote chance of being a victim, even in a bad crime rate city like reno, where only 7% of all USA cities are worse (sheesh (with a roll of the eyes)...

Yes, very remote chance of being a victim. Unless of course, you go looking for the opportunity to volunteer to become one. What I find even more humorous about this line of thought coming from you is that your Reno visit will consist of the airport, a hotel and probably the Wal Mart parking lot in broad daylight.

i think its more sensible to allow the good guys to protect themselves - antigun laws only protect the criminals as per the context of the predator/victim possibility...

It can also be argued that anti-gun laws would eliminate the bulk of mass shootings since they tend to be undertaken with legally owned firearms by previously law abiding people.

had to laugh at some of your stuff...

Oh. I'm sure you did.

thanks for deconstructing the mass shooting possibility at burning man

No problem. All it takes is looking at the patterns ans applying some common sense.

[ygmir]

Porschebug;

Let me just reiterate: I am a Canadian and live in a gun-free culture. Frankly your country scares the shit out of me, most of the time.

I have to screw my courage up to go to Burning Man. It's the journey that scares me because I know once I get to Burning Man, it will be just like home for me. In other words, no guns.

Any book that purports that More Guns = Less Crime is full of shit. Look at our crime stats. Per capita crimes in Canada are way less than in your country. Legal guns for target shooting or hunting are registered and stored in locked cabinets. Illegal guns are still acquired by criminals by bringing them in across the border but now that is even slowing to a trickle.

There is not a single place in Canada that I would not walk through in the middle of the night without a gun or a knife. There are a handful of urban areas that I might want to walk through with a friend but I would still go there, if it was on my journey.

I don't know, Deb, that you can compare Canada with the U.S. for this.........

small population, probably not the 'diversity' (social, racial, economic, and religious) as exists here, and,


you Canadians are just so darn nice............

[CapSmashy]

CAP

a person, esp. of the late 1960s, who rejected established institutions and values and sought spontaneity, direct personal relations expressing love, and expanded consciousness, often expressed externally in the wearing of casual, folksy clothing and of beads, headbands, used garments, etc.

thats the dictionary.com definition

Ah, so you have no definition of our own.

wow!, seems to fit BM quite well don't you think? plus 40+ years

Not based on my years of attendance.

time to dream of hippies as i lay my head down to sleep, maybe i'll think of that rancid combination of Patchouli and sweat of the feral RAINBOW GATHERING kids that would eat krishna food on campus, as i did for SO MANY YEARS... eat that is, not smell so much - krishnas should serve at BM!, that would kick ass!

With such disdain expressed for the people you overwhelmingly expect to encounter, it certainly does give one pause to wonder what your motivation would be for attending the event.

maybe i'll go line by line with you later, and we can do a freudian/gestalt/dianetic/jungian analysis of each other...

The anticipation of such an exchange is truly mind numbing.

[Deb Prothero]

I don't know, Deb, that you can compare Canada with the U.S. for this.........

small population, probably not the 'diversity' (social, racial, economic, and religious) as exists here, and,


you Canadians are just so darn nice............

Well we do have 10% of your population - about 36 million but we are equally diverse. In fact, I think I'd say we are more diverse but would need to look at numbers.

I lived in one apartment building in Toronto that had 30 nationalities represented. Walking through there at suppertime was a real treat - every mix of smell of cooking. Yum.

You have more one dimensional diversity, I think. And by that I mean you have many Latinos and many African Americans. However we have many different nationalities represented because our immigration policy is soooo much different from yours. Besides the African Americans settled here during the Underground Railway days so we have a large population of blacks as well.

I think we're nice because we know the other person doesn't have a gun and we have to use our wits to get along with everyone!

[ygmir]

I'll take your word on the diversity, I was just guessing.......

I do think we have greater socio-economic divides, and, built in resentment, societally.........probably "edgier" all the way around..........so many people here...........

I'd have to take exception to your nice analogy, though:

I'd think, a person would be nicer knowing the "other" had a gun......especially if you didn't...........
Although, I don't think that really comes into play.

I still maintain, that, you're all so nice, just "cause" you are........maybe it's the cold...........eh?

I've also always thought, that, certain ideas and such, work differently with smaller populations..........

[CapSmashy]

DEB

MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME

thats the title to a book that might be the best at showing statistically how this is true

Well, except for the tiny problem that all of Lott's research methodology was flawed and his entire hypothesis has been soundly debunked from numerous sources.

one of the one main claims that can't hardly enter into the stats is brandishing a gun, this is what happens most all the time, people very rarely shoot - its many more times that guns are pulled and flashed, etc... and hardly ever shot and this is a deterrent that our NRA tries to claim happens something over a million times a year or whatever... i suppose enough of this is reported to extrapolate some greater number beyond the actual reports...

Comments like this make responsible and trained gun owners cringe.

[Absolut Jeenyus]

I believe the captain is due for a promotion.


ATTEN--TION!

[Deb Prothero]

Major Smashy?

ATTEN--HUT!

[gyre]

Canada is more diverse, at least in some provinces.

Crime in canada appears to be low because people commit fewer crimes there.
The very different justice system may have something to do with it.

Glad to hear the smugglers are going along with the no guns law.
They generally don't cooperate.

[CapSmashy]

Naw, I'll stay a captain.

[Deb Prothero]

Canada is more diverse, at least in some provinces.

Crime in canada appears to be low because people commit fewer crimes there.
The very different justice system may have something to do with it.

Glad to hear the smugglers are going along with the no guns law.
They generally don't cooperate.

The justice system here focuses on rehabilitation except that any crime committed with a gun now gets a certain minimum sentence which is intended to deter criminals with guns. Not sure if that's working as intended since it was only enacted a couple years ago but hopefully it's working.

Smugglers try to get over the border with guns but the x-ray machines are stopping more of them. Every vehicle now gets xrayed before crossing. The whole smuggling of guns that continues is at the unguarded border points and these are becoming fewer and fewer.

[gyre]

Miniscule odds of being a crime victim ???
When, today?
Ever?
According to who?
How many times in your lifetime is it acceptable to be a victim of a violent crime?

Anyone traveling is always at more risk than residents, for many reasons.

I've been trying to think of a sporting event I can't carry my gun to.
I can't think of any.
I don't know about casinos.

There is a big difference between a rule and a law.
BLM rules over BLM land appear to have the force of law.
As you point out, this is a case of private use, so...?
I'm not qualified to say in this case.

Does the blm treat this as public land with a temporary ban?
Or private land with a rule that will get you kicked out?

And the usual never answered question of where do you put legal weapons in this case.

Here, when restaurants post prohibiting guns, you are supposed to leave the weapons in your car, presumably to arm the criminals that break into cars.
I won't be going in these places.

Interestingly, most owners have carry permits, for the same obvious reasons.
Some post signs banning weapons that are not legal signs and do not have to observed.
This is pr for the paranoid.
And common.

Still so odd that anyone would think a prohibition would affect anyone worth fretting over.
Do you really think there are no guns anywhere you go?


As for blaming the victims of crime, do I really need to say anything?


And yes, most use of weapons for defense are not reported because nothing of interest to the police occurs.

Just having neighbors that carry affects the crime rate for people that don't.
The number of women, elderly and disabled people known to be licensed here has sharply affected certain crimes.
Criminals are distinctly more edgy now.


As for statistics?
Crime here is severely under reported.
And reported wrong.

[gyre]

Canada is more diverse, at least in some provinces.

Crime in canada appears to be low because people commit fewer crimes there.
The very different justice system may have something to do with it.

Glad to hear the smugglers are going along with the no guns law.
They generally don't cooperate.

The justice system here focuses on rehabilitation except that any crime committed with a gun now gets a certain minimum sentence which is intended to deter criminals with guns. Not sure if that's working as intended since it was only enacted a couple years ago but hopefully it's working.

Smugglers try to get over the border with guns but the x-ray machines are stopping more of them. Every vehicle now gets xrayed before crossing. The whole smuggling of guns that continues is at the unguarded border points and these are becoming fewer and fewer.

Sorry, I intended to refer to overseas smuggling.
I think canada has numerous ports and the same issues that go along with this kind of commercial traffic.
Prohibitions create smuggling markets and increase the flow.
If you don't have control over all frontiers, controls like this are illusory.

Has drug flow stopped?
There are weapons in all those countries too.
And they travel the same routes.

I think the best approach is to make it illegal to commit murder.

[Deb Prothero]

Well xrays are being done on shipping containers too. That can usually catch the guns but not necessarily the drugs.

Murder is, of course, a crime here already. We did abolish the death penalty 40 years ago which is also a good thing considering the number of innocent people that have been wrongfully convicted.

[Igneouss]

Gotta love this debate...

my 2c:

I am actually pro-gun. But I am anti NRA. The NRA engages in the dissemination of masses of mis-information. It gets old...and boring. I also think the 'I have a right to my armour piercing 50cal rounds because 1)it says so in the Constitution, 2)bad guys can so I can too, 3)if they take away the 50cal armour piercing rounds then all privately owned weapons will be next. - logic is trite and kinda 8th grade. I'm waiting for the NRA to advocate private ownership on nukes.

But we digress

My contacts in the military and police who know about BM say that no responsible gun owner would ever take a weapon to an event like BM.

[Igneouss]

Gotta love this debate...

my 2c:

I am actually pro-gun. But I am anti NRA. The NRA engages in the dissemination of masses of mis-information. It gets old...and boring. I also think the 'I have a right to my armour piercing 50cal rounds because 1)it says so in the Constitution, 2)bad guys can so I can too, 3)if they take away the 50cal armour piercing rounds then all privately owned weapons will be next. - logic is trite and kinda 8th grade. I'm waiting for the NRA to advocate private ownership on nukes.

But we digress

My contacts in the military and police who know about BM say that no responsible gun owner would ever take a weapon to an event like BM.

[CapSmashy]

Miniscule odds of being a crime victim ???
When, today?
Ever?
According to who?
How many times in your lifetime is it acceptable to be a victim of a violent crime?

A victim of violent crime, as in a crime where a gun would be a legal/lawful deterrent by the intended victim.

Yes, today and its according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics.

Anyone traveling is always at more risk than residents, for many reasons.

Well yes, unless your are raveling by air, straight to the hotel by rental or taxi and straight to your near by destination.

[quoteI've been trying to think of a sporting event I can't carry my gun to.
I can't think of any.
I don't know about casinos.[/quote]

While it varies from state to state, I would be quite surprised to see any state that does not prohibit the carry of a concealed firearm at any large public gathering space. The 10 I ran through all had prohibitions against such actions.

There is a big difference between a rule and a law.
BLM rules over BLM land appear to have the force of law.
As you point out, this is a case of private use, so...?
I'm not qualified to say in this case.

Does the blm treat this as public land with a temporary ban?
Or private land with a rule that will get you kicked out?

I would go with the latter, since under normal circumstances, carrying of firearms is permitted in Black Rock.

And the usual never answered question of where do you put legal weapons in this case.

Yes, this is always an interesting sticking point to those traveling cross country by road. Like I do. I have made arrangements in the past for secure storage outside of the event.

Here, when restaurants post prohibiting guns, you are supposed to leave the weapons in your car, presumably to arm the criminals that break into cars.
I won't be going in these places.

Interestingly, most owners have carry permits, for the same obvious reasons.
Some post signs banning weapons that are not legal signs and do not have to observed.
This is pr for the paranoid.
And common.

Still so odd that anyone would think a prohibition would affect anyone worth fretting over.

I'm the same. If a place of business has one of the legal, proper signs posted, I don't go to that establishment. Here in Texas though, the 30.06 signs are few and far between.
Do you really think there are no guns anywhere you go?

As for blaming the victims of crime, do I really need to say anything?

Most victims of property crime create the oppourtunity for the crime to occur. A lot of victims of violent crime share some level culpability to the crime occurring as well.

Easy examples, the guy that leaves his PDA, laptop and briefcase sitting in his front seat while going inside the gym for an hour. I mean sure, you should expect your possessions to be safe, but leaving high value content in plain sight on a dark parking lot is akin to lighting a sign off saying steal me. In terms of Burning Man and bikes, a $5 dollar combo chain and 30 seconds will keep your bike from wandering off. A little proactivity and common sense goes a long way in avoiding victimization.

In terms of violent crime, shared levels of intoxication and manly chest thumping often lead to tragedy. Or to really avoid a significant bulk of the violent crime in the nation, don't join a gang or engage in illegal activity.

And yes, most use of weapons for defense are not reported because nothing of interest to the police occurs.

Well, not to the media anyway. The FBI collects this data as part of their annual reports. And yes, if use a firearm to defend yourself from harm, there will be a notation made with a police report if you call and report it.

As for statistics?
Crime here is severely under reported.
And reported wrong.

Maybe, maybe not.

[Porschebug]

ok folks, you can say it, BLACK PEOPLE, you don't need to disguise the truth with indirect politically correct euphemistic language that all too carefully states blacks have higher crime rates. DIVERSITY is the cover word running through this thread. This reminds me of another racial side step, INNER CITY YOUTH (hmmm, who could they be talking about when talking about crime with this slick tricky phrase? some amorphous colorless humans that are young and inside a city i guess...

the crime rates go like this:

blacks most criminal
then hispanics
then
whites
then asians(especcially east asians
being even lower on the crime scale...

so there you go, there is your simple watered down SURVIVAL GUIDE

and CAP feel free to break up this post into more little segments begging stupid non sequitur questions and assumptions about what i mean and say - you're great at it, keep up the insulting work jerk... everyone needs a challenge, or some new engram in need of auditing?

[gyre]

Well, not to the media anyway. The FBI collects this data as part of their annual reports. And yes, if use a firearm to defend yourself from harm, there will be a notation made with a police report if you call and report it.

In any case, you have to examine the parameters and margin of error.
And the question, usually a fail point.

This would be the same fbi that has faked lab results for years.
never tested the validity of fingerprint evidence and uses state statistics.

This is the agency now assuming all crimes are domestic until proven otherwise.
I have gone through four error corrections on my personal history so far.
All the fbi does is cut and paste what the state tells them.

80% of the crimes I report here leave no trace of paperwork.
I have a meeting with a prosecutor this week about this issue.
The thieves claim I left an air conditioner outside, so they thought it was okay to steal it.
Caught the.
No arrest, no charges.
Wildly inaccurate police report.

And my last home invasion is listed as a crime of violence.
Actually self defense against a gang of habitual criminals known to the police.
They were never charged.

My experience is typical as to records.

And no, no one collects data in the government on actual self defense without shots fired.

Hard to do anyway.
Do I count the times having a weapon calmed the situation?
Or only if a weapon was pulled?
Once I caught a prowler outside my house and I moved my hand toward my pocket.
His hands went up.
I never even touched the gun.

Or should we count the times no one is bothered because of the possibility or belief they carry a weapon?

How about when my next door neighbors were chased down and shot and the killings only stopped when someone showed up with a gun?
Two dead, nearly three.
The rest of the family safe.
The gunmen walked and are still out here.
How is this treated in the statistics?

I believe having a weapon makes it less likely to have to use deadly force.

[Absolut Jeenyus]

While it varies from state to state, I would be quite surprised to see any state that does not prohibit the carry of a concealed firearm at any large public gathering space. The 10 I ran through all had prohibitions against such actions.

Vermont and Alaska currently have practically no gun laws at all and its perfectly legal to carry openly or concealed in public areas with the exception of schools and courthouses.

From the Wiki.

Vermont

Vermont has very few gun control laws. Gun dealers are required to keep a record of all handgun sales. It is illegal to carry a gun on school property or in a courthouse. State law preempts local governments from regulating the possession, ownership, transfer, carrying, registration or licensing of firearms.[216]

The term "Vermont Carry" is used by gun rights advocates to refer to allowing citizens to carry a firearm concealed or openly without any sort of permit requirement. Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry while in Vermont.

The Vermont constitution of 1793, based partly on the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, guarantees certain freedoms and rights to the citizens: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State — and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power."

Alaska

Alaska is the first state to adopt carry laws mimicking Vermont's (normally referred to as "Vermont Carry,"), in which no license is required to carry a handgun either openly or concealed. However, licenses are still issued to residents who want them for purposes of carrying in other states via reciprocity, to be in complete compliance with Federal Gun Free School Zone act. The term "Alaska Carry" has been used to describe laws which require no license to carry handgun openly or concealed but licenses are still available for those who want them. Some city ordinances do not permit concealed carry without a concealed carry license, but these have been invalidated by the recent state preemption statute.

[Absolut Jeenyus]

While it varies from state to state, I would be quite surprised to see any state that does not prohibit the carry of a concealed firearm at any large public gathering space. The 10 I ran through all had prohibitions against such actions.

Vermont and Alaska currently have practically no gun laws at all and its perfectly legal to carry openly or concealed in public areas with the exception of schools and courthouses.

From the Wiki.

Vermont

Vermont has very few gun control laws. Gun dealers are required to keep a record of all handgun sales. It is illegal to carry a gun on school property or in a courthouse. State law preempts local governments from regulating the possession, ownership, transfer, carrying, registration or licensing of firearms.[216]

The term "Vermont Carry" is used by gun rights advocates to refer to allowing citizens to carry a firearm concealed or openly without any sort of permit requirement. Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry while in Vermont.

The Vermont constitution of 1793, based partly on the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, guarantees certain freedoms and rights to the citizens: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State — and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power."

Alaska

Alaska is the first state to adopt carry laws mimicking Vermont's (normally referred to as "Vermont Carry,"), in which no license is required to carry a handgun either openly or concealed. However, licenses are still issued to residents who want them for purposes of carrying in other states via reciprocity, to be in complete compliance with Federal Gun Free School Zone act. The term "Alaska Carry" has been used to describe laws which require no license to carry handgun openly or concealed but licenses are still available for those who want them. Some city ordinances do not permit concealed carry without a concealed carry license, but these have been invalidated by the recent state preemption statute.

[gyre]

On the nra.
Even a broken clock is right sometimes.


Porschebug,
I have no idea where the hell you're going with most of this.

Race and crime...what's your point?


The right to personal defense is simple.
It is an innate right.
Governments do not have the authority to interfere.

If someone tries to hurt you, stop them.
That's all there is to it.

[Porschebug]

Igneouss

i've wondered about .50 cal barretts and how they might be considered MILITARY GRADE, but thats one of the founding meanings behind the second amendment, that the people should have at least some level of equality with the military they might some day have to overthrow...