Fascism in Action

[Bob]

Turn a hippie over and you'll find a fundie every time.

[theCryptofishist]

Kelly,, I cain't be half right can I?? Back in college I had a climbing buddy, he used to brew his own beer.. Taught me to do the same in my hippie cabin along the Feather River.. He went on and opened a homebrew shop, then got some financial backing and opened a brewery in.... Chico,, he makes a finel pale ale.

Um, I have no idea what you're asking me. And I don't really see how knowing one of the founders of Sierra Nevada Brewing is relevant to anything.

Dang, I'm confused too. My surrogate niece and nephews are in the same home schooling group as the millionaire in question. Maybe I should ask him to clarify. (The fish drifts with the fantastic currents of hearing about some of the losers she used to hang with in school trying to legitmize themselves by that former connection.) Or maybe I could check in with the break-away brewers who left and founded thier own brewery, because SN was getting too commercial. I wonder if hanging out with the Grinch in college, innures you to the later stench when you start to keep goats. I also wonder if a "final pale ale" is something you feed to someone who's missaplied the socratic meathod.

[theCryptofishist]

And since no one is ever right 100% of the time, half right would actually be a pretty good average.

[ronski]

I think all fundamentalists are dangerous and out of touch with reality, be they free-market nuts, 2nd amendment-NRA people, Christians, scientific materialists, whatever.

Wow. What a sweeping generalization. You seem very sure of your beliefs.

The use of "fundamentalist" seems a bit sloppy here. May I suggest the more generic term "true believer"? True Believers in any cause?

So Kelly, in the context of your statement here, I'm curious: how do you consider people deeply involved in, say, PETA, or the ELF or ALF? Or real diehard Young Communist League types? Do you think they are more in touch with reality, and not dangerous?

And did you by chance read Michael Crichton's address to the Commonwealth Society? I'd like to hear your reaction to his opinion about the environmental movement. This would probably be more appropriate for Ranger Genius' post though. His original speech has disappeared from their website, but I could cut & paste the text if anyone was interested. This is BRR's thread though.

I'm really not interested in arguing or flaming, but I am curious about how deep your convictions are.

[Maia]

That Nicole bounced Ric again,, Bounce #3... Kelly,, that statement meant nothing,, it was just a lie, a Troll as you computer people would say..

[DVD Burner]

[KellY]

I think all fundamentalists are dangerous and out of touch with reality, be they free-market nuts, 2nd amendment-NRA people, Christians, scientific materialists, whatever.

Wow. What a sweeping generalization. You seem very sure of your beliefs.

The use of "fundamentalist" seems a bit sloppy here. May I suggest the more generic term "true believer"? True Believers in any cause?

So Kelly, in the context of your statement here, I'm curious: how do you consider people deeply involved in, say, PETA, or the ELF or ALF? Or real diehard Young Communist League types? Do you think they are more in touch with reality, and not dangerous?
...
I'm really not interested in arguing or flaming, but I am curious about how deep your convictions are.

No, I don't think the term "true believer" and "fundamentalist" are at all interchangeable. One can easily be devoutly religious and/or have other strong beliefs without being a fundamentalist. By fundamentalist I mean someone who insists they know the whole truth to the exclusion of all others, who refuses to acknowledge any information that contradicts their beliefs or different interpretation of their "sacred texts" (like the gun nuts who believe that the only way to interpret the 2nd amendment is that they're allowed to have all the guns they want, without regard to that "well-regulated miliia" bit), that refuses to acknowledge validity of other points of view or respect others with different views, etc. For instance, the term "free-market fundamentalist" has come into usage to describe those people who think that the "market" always works out for the best and that government regulation is always negative, no mattter how many Enrons and Worldcoms explode.

As for your examples, it would depend on the individual - PETA is a very large group that encompasses many different degrees of devotion, for instance.

I suggest checking out The Battle For God by Karen Armstrong for a great detailed look at Jewish, Christian, and Islamic fundamentalism. The psychology described can apply to many non-religious beliefs as well.

[Badger]

Well made points Kelly. Cool on ya.

[Rob the Wop]

By fundamentalist I mean someone who insists they know the whole truth to the exclusion of all others, who refuses to acknowledge any information that contradicts their beliefs or different interpretation of their "sacred texts" (like the gun nuts who believe that the only way to interpret the 2nd amendment is that they're allowed to have all the guns they want, without regard to that "well-regulated miliia" bit), that refuses to acknowledge validity of other points of view or respect others with different views, etc.

Uhm... so you are a gun nut if you interpret the "well-regulated militia" bit other than as guns should only be owned by the Armed Forces?

I'm thinking that our Founding Fathers were not as stupid as most folks think they were. The religious freedom was based upon the lessons of "Bloody Mary" and Henry the 8th split from the Catholic church. Much bloodshed ensued and they didn't want to repeat that. They had first-hand experience with government censorship, so they didn't want to repeat that either.

So why is the second amendment the second, as opposed to the third, or fourth, or fifth? Let's looksee.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Our founding fathers were well aware of Machavellian politics. The original intent behind the right to bear arms was in case our own government became tyrannical.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344

They were very famaliar with how tyranny started. They had the whole of European history to study. The first thing a government did to a populus it wanted to suppress was to pass laws restricting them from owning weapons. Then oppression was a piece of cake. It had been studied and written about ad nuaseum.

At the time, the well-regulated militia meant us. The people. United, armed, and famaliar with warfare methodology. Not a seperate body to be armed and controlled solely by the government (they understood the concept of a police state).

I don't hunt and I don't carry a concealled weapon. But I have a number of firearms and I am very famaliar with thier usage. Through growing up in remote desert towns, the military, and my own enjoyment of 'plinking'. I hope never to have the need to use one of my weapons and I seriously doubt I will ever need to raise arms against our own government.

But there is absolutely no way in hell I will be deliberately unprepared for the eventuality.

[Bob]

Turn a pagan over and you might find a little bit of fundie, but they usually start squealing about being agnostic.

[DVD Burner]

Turn a pagan over and you might find a little bit of fundie, but they usually start squealing about being agnostic.

Hey,

This agnostic resents that.

[theCryptofishist]

Nicole bounced {the gRInCh} again,, Bounce #3...

Wow, and he actually seemed a little less out of control for a while. I wonder who complained and what his violation was. (I have to confess that I felt like I was skirting the edge a time or two.)
Anybody who complained feel like telling us about it? I mean, Technopatria can't violate your confidentiality, but it might (ephasis on might) be instructive as to know something more about what went on behind the curtains.
As to Bounce #1, the real, true Bounce, prepping for his 6th burn, he and I are now officially engaged.


Waiting for Grinch #5 . . .

[Ranger Genius]

Crypto: I didn't lodge a complaint, but I wonder if it might have had something to do with this post:

Jesus H. Christ, Ranger are you stupid as a fucking rock? You should have figured out from what I said that I spoke from experience and knowledge, I worked as a logger, a tree planter and a Forest Service firefighter in the Sierra for years... I know what the fuck I am talking about.. Numb nuts

He was mostly doing okay, but maybe forgot to take his meds or something, and the tenuous civility of discourse broke down...

[diode]

I find it interesting that BRR invokes the specter of fascism and repressive cult-think on burners, yet he's the one crowing about the inherent 'superiority' of his class of folks, and wishes out loud for plagues and other catastrophes to occur to 'cityfolks', his personal demon projection.

[DVD Burner]

The only Fascism in Action that exsist is what this current American government's administration is doing that BRR enjoys being patriotic to.

[theCryptofishist]

BTW, I'd like to thank everyone for being so gracious as to overlook the following grammatical goof.

My surrogate niece and nephews are in the same home schooling group as the millionaire in question.

I meant that my surrogate niece and nephews are in the same group as the millionaire's children. And i think it was actually his wife who had the goats. And last I heard, they were divorcing.

[theCryptofishist]

I find it interesting that BRR invokes the specter of fascism and repressive cult-think on burners, yet he's the one crowing about the inherent 'superiority' of his class of folks, and wishes out loud for plagues and other catastrophes to occur to 'cityfolks', his personal demon projection.

Agreed. And I wonder what would happen to the Grinch's brittle mind if he tried a cognitive therapy experiment of viewing BM not as "sheep" but as gnus or bison or waterfowl--a big temporary gathering of wild animals (and humans are wild animals--no matter what their proximate habitat) that dominate the landscape for a few days and then are gone.

[stuart]

how do you consider people deeply involved in, say, PETA, or the ELF or ALF? Or real diehard Young Communist League types? Do you think they are more in touch with reality, and not dangerous?

I'll answer that. No.

[stuart]

Rob,

the FF definately had the idea of keeping the government at bay when they penned the 2nd. Unfortunately they did not foresee things like tactical nukes and strike fighters. As I see it, the idea was to give a bunch of folks disgruntled with government the ability to stand up and fight for their rights. Can you really see a group of guys, armed with the best that gun show loopholes can provide, withstand the brute force of the 82nd airborne with adequate air support? Clearly, in our modern world, this idea is ludicrously hopeful. If it were not, it would be legal for me to own a minuteman.

where do you think that leaves us?

[DVD Burner]

Rob,

the FF definately had the idea of keeping the government at bay when they penned the 2nd. Unfortunately they did not foresee things like tactical nukes and strike fighters. As I see it, the idea was to give a bunch of folks disgruntled with government the ability to stand up and fight for their rights. Can you really see a group of guys, armed with the best that gun show loopholes can provide, withstand the brute force of the 82nd airborne with adequate air support? Clearly, in our modern world, this idea is ludicrously hopeful. If it were not, it would be legal for me to own a minuteman.

where do you think that leaves us?

Are you suggesting or insinuating that there could be a possibility of the average group defeating an American army?

[Simply Joel]

It is my belief that when social order breaks down in the USA... find a nice deep hole to crawl into and wait until it gets really quiet... before you come back out.

for context... "social order breaks down" for context... think civil conditions during the Civil War/War between the States/War of Unsuccessful Secession.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/ShermansMarch.htm

[Simply Joel]

and... what it takes to support today's Army will be difficult to maintain without the consent of civilian contractors.

[DVD Burner]

and... what it takes to support today's Army will be difficult to maintain without the consent of civilian contractors.

[dragonfly Jafe]

[quote="DVD Burnerquote]

Are you suggesting or insinuating that there could be a possibility of the average group defeating an American army? [/quote]

It seems that an average group is defeating the US army right now. Actually, I'd consider them WAY below average (although they have assets WAY above average). And no, I am not refering to the FF in iraq....same thing happend in Vietnam years ago. We are our own worst enemy. We win all the battles but lose wars.

I am actually comforted by the lack of the US army's ability to stop these attacks - it means there could be hope for America in the long-run after all.

regards, Jafe

[KellY]

I find it interesting that BRR invokes the specter of fascism and repressive cult-think on burners, yet he's the one crowing about the inherent 'superiority' of his class of folks, and wishes out loud for plagues and other catastrophes to occur to 'cityfolks', his personal demon projection.

This is almost a textbook case of what Karen Armstrong talks about in her book. Fundies of all types (usually) come from a position of fear and insecurity about their place in the world. This causes them to start looking at themselves as the Chosen Few on one hand, and to totally demonize their supposed enemies on the other.

The "supposed" enemies thing is pretty key, as paranoia is often a big element in the fundie psychological profile. For instance, I really doubt the United Nations are plotting against gun-lovers in backwoods Michigan or Southern Baptist churches in Texas.

[Simply Joel]

Your attention please.

I support a mandatory 2 year national service (military and non-military) requirement for all citizens of the U.S.A.

[Rob the Wop]

Rob,

the FF definately had the idea of keeping the government at bay when they penned the 2nd. Unfortunately they did not foresee things like tactical nukes and strike fighters. As I see it, the idea was to give a bunch of folks disgruntled with government the ability to stand up and fight for their rights. Can you really see a group of guys, armed with the best that gun show loopholes can provide, withstand the brute force of the 82nd airborne with adequate air support? Clearly, in our modern world, this idea is ludicrously hopeful. If it were not, it would be legal for me to own a minuteman.

where do you think that leaves us?

If nukes and strike fighters were the complete answer, why have a standing army at all? We are obviously incredibley successful at Iraq and previously in Vietnam, right? I wonder who is killing our troops in Iraq, and how many minuteman missles they have?

We will always need a standing army to hold a position. Plus the troops in your case will be comprised of the people, bombing thier own land. You can only use so many nukes or tactical strikes before you destroy your own ability to feed/cloth/supply your armies. Defenseless people can be told what to do by one soldier at gunpoint. An armed populus cannot. The 'modern army is pointless to resist' argument is actually pretty silly as an argument to dis-arm the populus.

And it definately falls apart from a military tactic standpoint when you add overwhelming numbers into the mix. If I used my 300 Winchester Magnum and scope to snipe a group of troops, I could probably take out at least 2-3 minimum. If the standing population outnumbered the military (assuming no desertions) by 280 to 1 (2003 estimates), then it would be a slaughter even assuming only a third of the people having a weapon and fighting.

Were our founding fathers guerrilla fighters, or did they have massive amounts of heavy artillery? If not then who did have the cannon during the revolutionary war? Oh....

What I find kind of odd is that usually those people that believe the populus are the same ones that seriously distrust our own government when it comes to the individual's welfare. This simply means that the people they trust the least, should be the ones that have all the weaponry. Might want to peruse this link- it's actually pretty interesting reading (copy of the original page- the link to the original server is broken, so I had to use these folk's copy). This guy states it much better than I.

[stuart]

I have read similar stuff Kelly. To inadequately paraphrase, the rise in fundamentalism in the U.S. has been partially attributed to the erosion of job security. In the age of layoffs, outsourcing and job hopping it has been argued that workers, although having better environments to work in, feel less and less secure about their futures.

[Rob the Wop]

Dammit! I hate not having an edit button.

I was going to delete the post and simply cut-and-paste it with corrections. The delete button wouldn't work because "The post has been replied to".

Another thing to ponder is individual choice in defense. One of my favorite Tae Kwon Do teachers of all time put it pretty bluntly. He was an awesome guy, 6th degree black belt, 20 years in the military, taught knife fighting and jungle tactics to soldiers for Vietnam. He managed to get a PhD in criminal psychology, worked in SF, and had a dojo in Santa Rosa. He taught battered women and children kick boxing and self defense for free.

Its always your choice to fight. Rapists and bullies don't go for the tough targets, they are far more likely to give up when a serious resistance is encountered. Part of their mental makeup. You are almost always better off putting up an effective defense.

This goes for governments to.

[Rob the Wop]

Quick question- not trying to piss anyone off or looking for a free 'cheap shot'.

Kelly, Stuart- do you honestly consider me a 'fundie'? If so, is it solely for my view on guns/gun control?