An end to Bar Cars?

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Thu May 06, 2004 6:26 am

stuart wrote:exchange heard on speeding art car (not bar)

passenger 'slow down, you're going to get us all killed'

operators 'read your ticket'

yup, that just about sums it up for me.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:50 am

I understand your stance, but you'd rather shut down all bar cars and potentially all art cars rather than move a penny (or a piece of paper, or something else with some technical legal value, could be a piece of paper with a zen koan or some bit of wisdom you've learned in your life) from one bowl to the other?

Yes, I would.
While BM is clearly diferent for everyone, for me, BM is not about bar cars. There are three tenets that draw me to Burning man:
1. radical self-reliance
2. radical self-expression
and
3. NO COMMERCE

If you allow even something so simple as a penny sale, IMO, that defeats the entire purpose of BM, and I think you may as well change it into some other event and sell t-shirts and $6 beers.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:58 am

Ivy wrote:
I understand your stance, but you'd rather shut down all bar cars and potentially all art cars rather than move a penny (or a piece of paper, or something else with some technical legal value, could be a piece of paper with a zen koan or some bit of wisdom you've learned in your life) from one bowl to the other?
Yes, I would.
While BM is clearly diferent for everyone, for me, BM is not about bar cars. There are three tenets that draw me to Burning man:
1. radical self-reliance
2. radical self-expression
and
3. NO COMMERCE

If you allow even something so simple as a penny sale, IMO, that defeats the entire purpose of BM, and I think you may as well change it into some other event and sell t-shirts and $6 beers.

Amen, sister....

say it loud, say it often....

1. radical self-reliance
2. radical self-expression
3. NO COMMERCE

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:02 am

Ivy wrote:
I understand your stance, but you'd rather shut down all bar cars and potentially all art cars rather than move a penny (or a piece of paper, or something else with some technical legal value, could be a piece of paper with a zen koan or some bit of wisdom you've learned in your life) from one bowl to the other?

Yes, I would.
While BM is clearly diferent for everyone, for me, BM is not about bar cars. There are three tenets that draw me to Burning man:
1. radical self-reliance
2. radical self-expression
and
3. NO COMMERCEquote]

I agree with your tenets (although see definition for "commerce" below) - but for me radical self expression includes building mutant vehicles to share. I enjoy most the radical technological wonders that are created each year. True, I wish more vehicles were truly radical, and fully support the current DMV initiatives to improve this.

I think the commerce point is being over-stated. Who says evil money has to be involved? I ask everyone who boards my vehicle to write something in my vehicle log - that is the "price" of a ride on my vehicle. Many barter bars exist, and according to the below definition commerce DOES exist at burning man!

com·merce ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kmrs) n.

1. The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations. See Synonyms at business.

2. Intellectual exchange or social interaction.

3. Sexual intercourse.

regards, Jafe

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Thu May 06, 2004 6:06 pm

My mutant vehicles are custom-built and radical; they're mutants first, and "bar cars" distant second... and I'd rather shut down the blender than introduce commerce like they have at center camp.
I believe "no commerce" is possibly the most important defining element that makes Burning Man work.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:14 pm

Many barter bars exist, and according to the below definition commerce DOES exist at burning man!

Yes, it clearly does. Beisdes the examples you stated, there is obviously the cafe and ice sales.

But just becuase they exist does not mean I have to agree with them. Feel free to seach my previous posts regarding commerce at BM a la cafe and ice.

If I wanted to buy a ride on a mutant vehicle, I'd buy a ticket to Disneyland.

I am glad you build mutant vehicles to share. I don't see how commerce is ingrained or in any way necessary for that.

To each their own.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:46 pm

Yes, it clearly does. Beisdes the examples you stated, there is obviously the cafe and ice sales.

Viva La Revolucion! FREE THE CHAI!

Oh yeah, and art cars (and bar-cars) still suck.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:50 pm

And by the way, gifts are not needed or solicited for boarding the 'Cruiser. All you need is to be willing to go wherever we're going (got tired of being a taxi, it never ends!) and a nice calm demeanor, not acting like an amped-up drugged or drunk bull in a china shop, and you gotta ask, not demand entrance (it's amazing how many people feel entitled to jump on, with 14 of their friends, whether they have permission or not!). For safety and weight-capacity reasons I only allow 10 people max at a time, and take a lot of shit for it from people that feel I owe them taxi service.
I'm drifting into a rant, but it sucks to build something that's cool to see on the playa, be nice enough to take some people cruising, serve free drinks, and have a good percentage of people think I'm a jerk because I didn't do enough.
Solution: next mutant designed with much less percieved seating capacity.

<takes swig of shut-up juice, steps away from keyboard>

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:56 pm

Chai Guy wrote:
Oh yeah, and art cars (and bar-cars) still suck.

Chai Guy - Would like to try some chai, and offer you the helm of the Playa Cruiser, a real mutant, scratch built, no car under it. It's kinetic, mechanical art and doesn't suck! I have an extra Captain's hat for you.
Let's cruise!

Force · Post by **Force** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:56 pm

Kudos to Jafe who expressed what I was trying to say better than I did apparently.

My point is, we're the frickin creative geniuses- we should be able to outsmart these pod people who live in pastel cubicles. Jafe pointed out that it doesn't have to be and probably shouldn't be pennies moved from bowl to bowl to qualify as a payment that would be recognized in a court of law, it could be something else more meaningful that would enhance the event even further if we can be creative enough to figure out what.

I was kind of fishing for some legal types (or just someone with more time to do the research than I currently have) out there to inform us all what would legally be considered payment in the eyes of the law, and therefore we could have an online brainstorming session as to what would fulfill that requirement and yet still be in the spirit of BM.

Please let's don't let this degenerate into an argument, I'm trying to help solve the problem.

It works like this, I put forth an idea, then someone like Jafe expands upon it or refines it, again and again, as many times as necessary until we have a solution.

It's called community.

Or we can just give up.

Force · Post by **Force** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:33 pm

Ivy wrote:I am glad you build mutant vehicles to share. I don't see how commerce is ingrained or in any way necessary for that.

Commerce itself is not NECESSARY, what has become necessary is to meet the LEGAL definition of commerce in a way consistent with the spirit of BM so that we can continue to drink, or not, as we wish, without being dictated to by lesser minds. Or find a way to challenge that rule and have it changed, amended or struck down.

The issue, to me, is not only important if we desire to be able to freely give rides to those with alcohol or serve alcohol on a bar car- to me this is the lesser issue compared to just throwing my hands up and admitting defeat to a bunch of meddling sourpusses whose main purpose in life seems to be to stick their noses into my affairs and keep me from having fun.

To me, that's what BM is, freedom. To have any part of it changed from the outside annoys me. We're responsible, intelligent people. We don't get staggering drunk and go drive art cars at high speeds willy-nilly. We don't need daddy or mommy gummint telling us not to be stupid, thanks.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:47 pm

Unfortunately, BRC isn't a sovereign nation, and all the regular US laws apply. Booze and vehicles don't legally mix, they've just been really cool about letting us have our fun (for the most part... I got thoroughly grilled by the police in '02 for having an open container at the wheel of the 'Cruiser, but I wasn't visibly intoxicated and was let go with a warning; the cops in that particular incident weren't concerned about the passengers. I've heard of artcar drivers getting DUI's out there, and since then I've been a very good boy. I operate heavy equipment and trucks for a living, a DUI would be BAAAD.)

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:07 am

Point well-made, Capt. GD.

Our Burningman community is part of a much larger community, and as such is subject to the superceding laws of that community, namely the state and federal governments.

If someone is operating a Mutant Vehicle while drinking or drunk, I'd applaud the cops or BLM rangers for busting his ass. You simply do NOT operate a vehicle while intoxicated in a FUCKING TENT CITY, Mutant or not.

It is possible, however, to serve drinks on your MV without bringing the law on your head, as I stated before. Simply serve drinks while parked and lock bottles up when driving. Passengers would be liable for their own drinks, not the driver. Perhaps a printed copy of the appropriate statutes might be handy in case you are stopped. As always, the Rangers are there to make reasonable excuses for you if you need us.

Incidentally, Capt. GD, I've seen you cruising around in your fabulous MV, and it is an impressive piece of work. Maybe there should be a sign when you leave the pavement to drive onto the playa: "Please leave your sense of Entitlement at the gate."

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:29 am

Ranger Genius wrote:Point well-made, Capt. GD.

Our Burningman community is part of a much larger community, and as such is subject to the superceding laws of that community, namely the state and federal governments.

If someone is operating a Mutant Vehicle while drinking or drunk, I'd applaud the cops or BLM rangers for busting his ass. You simply do NOT operate a vehicle while intoxicated in a FUCKING TENT CITY, Mutant or not.

It is possible, however, to serve drinks on your MV without bringing the law on your head, as I stated before. Simply serve drinks while parked and lock bottles up when driving. Passengers would be liable for their own drinks, not the driver. Perhaps a printed copy of the appropriate statutes might be handy in case you are stopped. As always, the Rangers are there to make reasonable excuses for you if you need us.

Incidentally, Capt. GD, I've seen you cruising around in your fabulous MV, and it is an impressive piece of work. Maybe there should be a sign when you leave the pavement to drive onto the playa: "Please leave your sense of Entitlement at the gate."

As I reflect a wee bit, I think it might have been RG that retrieved my from the grasps of the BLM after the '01 DPW parade... drove me back to my campsite after I received a "No Art Car Permit" ticket... and then I jumped on a bike and went and retrieved my truck where I was told to park it.

Blowing into a breathalyzer, getting a .08, and walking away opened my eyes to my own folly.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:39 am

Wish I could say it was me, but it must have been someone else. I have had the occasion to rescue a DPW worker from the LE, before (He was drunk, had an open container, and was speeding in the residential part of the city when he PASSED a sherriff's vehicle. Smart guy.) The guy didn't get cited for any of his offences, since we promised to take care of him and the vehicle...I would have liked to see him at least busted for one of those (the cop originally wanted to take him to jail), but when he decided to was his hands of it, I wasn't going to argue.

At least you have the capacity to learn from your mistakes, Capt. Thank you for being responsible.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:50 am

My error was drawing attention to myself by completing 3 or 4 donuts during the DPW parade... which of course created HUGE dust clouds... all on good fun, don't you know.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri May 07, 2004 10:45 am

hey capt, were you parked next to la contessa last year? If so, nice vibe, I was a neighbor. Also, for future neighbors sake, please disable the repeat function on your cruisers CD player.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:25 pm

Fuck the "DPW" Parade.

Save the fuel, lock all the agro kids inside the cyclone fence at the depot w/ a couple kegs of lukewarm Sierra Puke Ale, and unlock when they're all passed out. I'm fucking sick of getting grief for the forklift or the bobcat operators running over bikes, cars, feet & ribcages, and all the rest of it.

Do it on your own budget, assholes.

I puke on all your bar cars.

I hock a large sea-greenish loogie on your Contessa.

One week of slumming in the desert, fifty-one weeks of someone else apologizing for it, and far too many assholes thinking their ticket pays for Radical Adolescence. Do it in your own time, place & manner, you little pukes.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:26 pm

Bob wrote:Fuck the "DPW" Parade.

Save the fuel, lock all the agro kids inside the cyclone fence at the depot w/ a couple kegs of lukewarm Sierra Puke Ale, and unlock when they're all passed out. I'm fucking sick of getting grief for the forklift or the bobcat operators running over bikes, cars, feet & ribcages, and all the rest of it.

Do it on your own budget, assholes.

I puke on all your bar cars.

I hock a large sea-greenish loogie on your Contessa.

One week of slumming in the desert, fifty-one weeks of someone else apologizing for it, and far too many assholes thinking their ticket pays for Radical Adolescence. Do it in your own time, place & manner, you little pukes.

This really made me smile.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:36 pm

Simply Joel wrote:My error was drawing attention to myself by completing 3 or 4 donuts during the DPW parade... which of course created HUGE dust clouds... all on good fun, don't you know.

Donuts do have a way of bringing Cops by the dozens...Jafe

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri May 07, 2004 1:38 pm

I heart/hate (but mostly heart) bob

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:26 pm

Why is it that I almost never hear "DPW" without it being followed immediately by a perjorative?

Mostly a case of a few bad apples?

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:33 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:Why is it that I almost never hear "DPW" without it being followed immediately by a perjorative?

Mostly a case of a few bad apples?

more a case of "shop class gone bad"

oh yeah... in 2001 "Dangerous People Working"

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:50 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:Why is it that I almost never hear "DPW" without it being followed immediately by a perjorative?

Mostly a case of a few bad apples?

A few bad apples I would say...

These are the folks that sit around in the desert for weeks ahead of time building the city infrastructure (so they deserve our gratitude if nothing else, BRC couldn't happen without DPW). Some DPW folks have an overdeveloped sense of importance - mainly that rules do not apply to them (maybe from too much sun and tequila). This sometimes leads to bad feelings amongst the "lesser folks" who see DPW getting away with stuff that they could not (or almost killed by errant vehicles that are not mutated).

But they are nice folks to be camped next to...

regards, Jafe

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:55 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:Why is it that I almost never hear "DPW" without it being followed immediately by a perjorative?

Mostly a case of a few bad apples?

Shucks and golly gee... most of you city folk don't know how bad an apple can get when you're holed up in a box canyon and yer grub's running out and yer llamas ran off from the saddlesores and the larva of a parasitic wasp pops out of yer pippin in mid-bite...

Anyhow, we don't generally follow DPW with a prejorative, as our reputation percedes us...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:57 pm

Bob wrote: Shucks and golly gee... most of you city folk don't know how bad an apple can get when you're holed up in a box canyon and yer grub's running out and yer llamas ran off from the saddlesores and the larva of a parasitic wasp pops out of yer pippin in mid-bite...

Nothing like a parasitic wasp to give you a permanant case of spleen.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:58 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:Why is it that I almost never hear "DPW" without it being followed immediately by a perjorative?

There's some good answers above. I also wonder if there might be some class tensions involved.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat May 08, 2004 1:39 am

We built this city!

and it wasn't with Rock and Roll but guts sweat and beer!

We could do without alot of things.

Lets start with Motorhomes and generators.

Add human powered art cars and bicycles only!

It might add up to less tourist attending.

How about parking your vehicles at the paved road and hitching your bike with a wagon to carry your water, food and tent.

Hmmm, I see about a 50% drop in idiots right there!

I like to dream.

A II Z

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat May 08, 2004 4:37 am

Quote:

I like to dream.

Yeah, but I don't see your name on any of the numerous volunteer lists where you could contribute.

Gotta gripe? Don't like something? Get your shit in gear and jump in dude.

C'mon, I fucking dare ya.

Pixel whinging on the board only goes so far.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Sat May 08, 2004 10:57 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:We built this city!

and it wasn't with Rock and Roll but guts sweat and beer!

We could do without alot of things.

Lets start with Motorhomes and generators.

Add human powered art cars and bicycles only!

It might add up to less tourist attending.

How about parking your vehicles at the paved road and hitching your bike with a wagon to carry your water, food and tent.

Hmmm, I see about a 50% drop in idiots right there!

I like to dream.

A II Z

Oh bullshit, you also built this city with MONEY from ticket sales.
Turning the entire event into walk-in camping would reduce attendance by at least 50%, and of course ALL of the people who have RVs are idiots and tourists, and all of the people who rough it are righteous proper burners... Larry Harvey stays in a tent, right? The DPW uses no generators, right?