I want to hear more about THIS!

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:25 pm

you shouldn't bend over and take it on this one, just because that is the easy way out.

that is exactly what they want you to do, THUS the ticket.
this can easily be dropped down to a contributing/delinquincy charge, and possibly dismissed altogether if your lawyer and DA can agree on something else.

Get legal help with this, just accepting the charge reflects badly on yourself and to the community ever so slightly(dependant on whether you give a shit about "community" or not).

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:33 pm

I had a very cleancut "hip" appearing guy walk up to me in our Lounge one evening asking if I knew where he could get any mushrooms. I just chuckled and said no and he then proceeded to ask several other people in the lounge the same question. He had LEO written all over him.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:50 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:you shouldn't bend over and take it on this one, just because that is the easy way out.

that is exactly what they want you to do, THUS the ticket.
this can easily be dropped down to a contributing/delinquincy charge, and possibly dismissed altogether if your lawyer and DA can agree on something else.

Get legal help with this, just accepting the charge reflects badly on yourself and to the community ever so slightly(dependant on whether you give a shit about "community" or not).

You know this is real easy for you to say.Fortunately you do not have to deal with it except to type a few absurd words of on how my"taking the easy way out"reflects badly on myself and"the community".

Fact is we have sought legal help every day from the day we arrived home from The Playa until now.All our efforts have led to nothing but unreturned emails,letters and phone calls.

Unless something changes I can look forward driving to Lovelock and appearing before a judge(not likely to be "Burner Friendly") to protest my innocence or skipping that ordeal and writing a check from home.I am sure you probably mean well in your advice but for me the choice is pretty simple.

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:09 pm

That is the point of the process - it gives you a choice.
It usually comes down to time or money, each of which has value according to our own personal views.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:21 pm

We both live in the same area, if you were living in Seattle , I would understand.
Lovelock is right down the road, with or without representation I would go before the judge and plea my case, so it is just a matter of choice, and these words are not absurd, they come from someone who was stood up to multiple charges across many years without a lawyer , and won almost every time.
You just need to take the NRS, as it is, and use it to defend yourself, and of course this is easier if there is a lawyer doing it for you, but to not attempt it is what they hope you will do, in order to fill thier coffers.

Keep trying for lawyers, the phone book is full of them, someone will call you back eventually, they work for a living too.

Try the ones in Winnemucca also, just beware of any in Lovelock.

I know you are frustrated, but you don't have to bend over for this.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:27 pm

OK Again we appreciate the advice.Howver when it comes to driving up to Lovelock(only in Nevada would that be considered" down the road")and representing myself I am reminded of the old adage of"someone representing themselves has a fool for a client".

Here are the facts as I see them.The one lawyer who did quote a price for his services wanted $750.I would guess any other lawyer would want a similar fee.Let's assume through some legal machination he gets me off Scott free.I am still out $750 plus per diem.Possible savings $300-400.A more realistic assumption would be a lesser charge at possibly 1/2 the fine.Guess what?I am in worse financial shape than I would have if I merely paid the original fine.Beleive me I would love to fight this if I thought it would be beneficial to me and my family but I am not into Pyrrhic victories.If something changes in the next 10 days I will post.

SageV · Post by **SageV** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:42 pm

zorro sings wrote: You know this is real easy for you to say.Fortunately you do not have to deal with it except to type a few absurd words of on how my"taking the easy way out"reflects badly on myself and"the community".

Fact is we have sought legal help every day from the day we arrived home from The Playa until now.All our efforts have led to nothing but unreturned emails,letters and phone calls.

Can't speak for the other poster, but most of us understand (especially with the additional details) that you got screwed. It happens. We know BLM over the years has done a lot of sloppy police work at Burning Man, and its obvious than when they've been challenged in court and nothing sticks (i.e. dozens of posession charges plead down to littering charges).

Not legal advice: I think if you could afford an attorney, he or she could make this go away. Nobody wants to go to a court trial over something trivial like this, which is why you can't get your calls returned. Nobody returning your calls is a sure sign its a bullshit, petty ass crime that's hardly worth anybody's time to deal with. Additionally, a jury of your peers is going to be hard pressed to see why giving an underage person a beer should cost you $1200, and is not going to be too happy knowing that their hard earned tax dollars are spending thousands of dollars to prosecute this.

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:47 pm

CapSmashy wrote:
jkisha wrote:It is illegal to provide alcohol to your own kids in your own home if they are under-age.

JK
No it isn't.

I stand corrected. It is a per state thing.

JK

SageV · Post by **SageV** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:57 pm

zorro sings wrote:OK Again we appreciate the advice.Howver when it comes to driving up to Lovelock(only in Nevada would that be considered" down the road")and representing myself I am reminded of the old adage of"someone representing themselves has a fool for a client".

Good luck, but I'm curious, is it an infraction or a misdemeanor? If it's a misdemeanor or above you do get a public defender and the right to a jury trial. If you get a public defender, however, you aren't going to see them until you get there.

Another thing to remember too, they will probably lower the fine just for you showing up and pleading guilty.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:18 pm

Well Thanks very much Sage.Some good has come from this discussion.It is a misdemeanor.I looked it up as your post made me curious.More importantly what I found was that the max fine is $500.The rest of the $1,152 is bail(which they assume I will forfeit) and administration costs.So yes now it will make some sense to go to Lovelock.Thanks again.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:22 pm

I ran the bar at roller disco for a few years, and this is always a problem. since most burners dont walk around with ID. I ask their birthdate, and if it's not an immediate answer, or the answer is underage, its a NO. Not sure if that approach stands up to legal goons, but I figure its the best way.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:33 pm

Also, if you are still trying to find a lawyer for this, I would suspect that those attourneys that handle DUI/DWI wouldn't have a problem with such a case.
If you have ever dealt with or know a bail bondsmen, ask him/her for a reference, they know all the scumbag cheap lawyers personally.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:49 pm

Actually Dick if I had taken your original advice and looked at the NRS I would have found a lawyer to be superflous.I am a fool and will now represent myself.Actually I think I WILL look into a public defender and a jury trial!Might be more fun.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:24 pm

There you go

That's the spirit !!

Stick it to the Man !!

..and good luck !!

CapSmashy · Post by **CapSmashy** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:41 pm

And please Zorro, don't let this not bring back Verboten.

I was not able to make it over this year but I have fond memories of dancing the night away in previous years.

SageV · Post by **SageV** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:38 pm

zorro sings wrote:Actually Dick if I had taken your original advice and looked at the NRS I would have found a lawyer to be superflous.I am a fool and will now represent myself.Actually I think I WILL look into a public defender and a jury trial!Might be more fun.

Cool, you still might want to call a few attorneys. Again, I'm not offering legal advice, and a public defender might be ten shades of useless. It's really a crap shoot. Depending on how good your case would be, an attorney might be able to make your misdemeanor disappear completely for around $600 flat. Every town seems to have one attorney who takes on the misdemeanor, minor infraction cases, its kind of a specialization onto itself.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:01 pm

And when it comes to those court appointed "lawyers", sometimes you might do better by yourself, as they are often working with the court to make things easier for the court(filling coffers again).
This is especially true in smaller towns, as a general rule of thumb.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:59 pm

Magpie Sparkles wrote: I'm British so I'm not 100% clear on the American law regarding serving alcohol to minors whether it's for money or for free but I was part of a largish bar camp and someone in my camp (UNnatural History Museum in the 3 o'clock Plaza)

That place was awesome. Lovely decor. (No, I didn't have a drink there.)

Magpie Sparkles wrote:I spoke to a few other bars during the course of the week and had heard of about 5 or 6 other incidences where this had happened - it seemed like they were systematically sending in plants to bars to test out if they were asking for ID or not.

This happens every year. OUr first year on playa we were lucky enough to have a very savvy guy who did the research.

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:53 am

Here's a question, Zorro?

Was alcohol the only thing in that ice chest? Or was there choices...water/soda etc....

Seems this might be able to be thrown out of court very easily.

Your camp member was probably just trying to be nice to someone who was helping break down equipment, and never meant for this person to pick a alcoholic beverage.

Yes, I feel for ya...total entrapment!

Hince why we HAVE to run such a tight ship!

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:19 am

Another thing to check into, Zorro..... The first court date is to enter a plea. Then they set another court date to hear the case. It might take two trips, unless you can enter a plea from here.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:20 am

Actually there was more Dr.Pepper(diet) and water in the cooler than beer!!!!Think there were maybe two beers total.

We contacted the court today and to enter a not guilty plea one must request via fax a"release"on "own recognition".Trial will then begin in 45-60 days.

decoverite · Post by **decoverite** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:53 pm

So sorry you guys got busted. Club Verboten is the only bar to ever card me at Burning Man so I know you guys are usually on top of it.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:58 am

TomServo wrote:I ran the bar at roller disco for a few years, and this is always a problem. since most burners dont walk around with ID. I ask their birthdate, and if it's not an immediate answer, or the answer is underage, its a NO. Not sure if that approach stands up to legal goons, but I figure its the best way.

I personally think the Booby Bar approach is best;

"Are you legally allowed to drink in the state of Nevada?" (they also ask if you are 21 or over)

It is illegal in Nevada to lie about this...

makes for some fun introductory conversation too!

Magpie Sparkles · Post by **Magpie Sparkles** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:36 pm

[quote="theCryptofishist"]
That place was awesome. Lovely decor. (No, I didn't have a drink there.)
[/quote]

Oh cool, nice of you to say so! It was my first burn and only now after working my ass off to get the camp looking fly do I truly understand what everyone meant when they say the more you put into Burning Man, the more you get out of it.

Next year come and find us and have a drink... we are already plotting how we are going to top it x

Rat Bastard · Post by **Rat Bastard** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:27 pm

Zorro,
Good job for pleading Not Guilty. You are innocent until they can "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" that You the Charged have committed a crime. Since it's the cop's word against yours and there is no evidence they don't have a case. They will have to get the undercover person to testify, the cops supervising the bust to testify etc. And they will have to prove the age of the undercover person AND their identity. All of these people have to be at court when you are as well. If they can't make it, the case should get thrown out.

Since they are ticketing someone not directly involved in the crime they don't seem to have a case. Do they have the name of the person that said "hey, grab a drink out of that cooler". Doing that (with a cooler with beer in it) is the same as knowingly leaving alcohol in a place that underaged people could take it. However, they would have to prove who's cooler it was and who placed it there. If that wasn't you, you haven't committed a crime.

Go to trial. The States Attorney will end up dropping the case because it will cost them more then the ticket is worth. Especially since the only evidence on the case is a ticket. Signing the ticket is not admission of guilt. It's admission of receiving paperwork.

Use their tax money and get a public defender. Make them defend your innocence not plea something down. They WILL try to talk you into it. Also, by more people beating these charges, the more trouble these cops get into because it wastes resources and money when they do.

Good luck.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:25 pm

Thanks Rat,Some good ideas there.They called today and said my not guilty plea has been accepted via fax. I do not have to appear to enter a plea.I am released on "OR" and my trial date will be forthcoming.I will now be requesting all the information/evidence they have against me.I will share this here and get some more ideas from you all.I thank everyone who has contributed some imput on this as it has given me the incentive to go forward.......omar

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:01 pm

The only thing worse than representing yourself, is not being represented at all.

If the police didn't do their job, file a formal complaint, always.

Be someone that no one wants to take to court.
I once held up a murder trial fighting a ticket.

It sounds like we need a legal defense fund to help out victims like you.

If you email me your phone number, I'll pass on some advice a lawyer gave me about court presentation.
I have won more with that non-technical advice than anything else.

This case below is about refusing plea bargains.
PLEA BARGAINS ARE EXTORTION.
This woman is risking more than a few hundred dollars.
Everyone that fights a unfair case is helping all of us.
All of us.
http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/lo ... tting_Line

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:44 pm

gyre wrote:I'll pass on some advice a lawyer gave me about court presentation.

I want to know! Please post that here.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:50 pm

It is all simple and fairly subtle, but I think this forum is too public.
It may be more useful if it isn't codified in people's minds, especially the honorable opposition.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:52 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:
TomServo wrote:I ran the bar at roller disco for a few years, and this is always a problem. since most burners dont walk around with ID. I ask their birthdate, and if it's not an immediate answer, or the answer is underage, its a NO. Not sure if that approach stands up to legal goons, but I figure its the best way.
I personally think the Booby Bar approach is best;

"Are you legally allowed to drink in the state of Nevada?" (they also ask if you are 21 or over)

It is illegal in Nevada to lie about this...

makes for some fun introductory conversation too!

Okay....but does that free the bartender from liability? Maybe a locked, underage, collar for th young-uns?!?