The Bar... Volume#2

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:49 am

Gyre, this is small about 4x9". it is a dual voice coil, and can be wired l/r at 4ohms ea. specs say so no ears are harmed with this wiring. I'm going to mount it in a flat board, and put that in a cylinder, dividing the volume per specs, band pass single tuned enclosure. The only opening will be the port. http://www.baysidenet.tv/catalog/pdf/LAT250-004.pdf
design is being driven by size mainly. I have a very small t-amp board, 15 watts. the crossover is bigger than the amp board actually. I have two small 2" 4 ohm speakers that were marketed as good mates for this sub, those I want to make pvc tl speakers out of. I'm thinking of putting the amp and crossover and small 12V battery in an ammo can. should be playa friendly. vocal, and acoustic instrument quality main desire, not volume.

I'm at the quit shopping and just make it phase, and will see how it sounds. Best choice is always the unmade project for me. I think you are right that two larger single driver speakers would most likely in the end sound better, but I think this sub is so cute, and unusual... what can I say? My amp this year was a 1.5 watt cana-kit stereo in an altoids tin, with two t.v. speaker take outs. Total cost about 20 bucks. I've run that with souped up drive in speakers as well. decent at low volume and very transportable. It seems the time I invest in these things has not had a huge payoff in playa admiration or use even. I listen when I make coffee, or cook dinner and that's about it. Have you seen the photos of the fellow in Italy who made a huge folded horn subwoofer that fit under his entire living room? It was a masonry project like a strange wine cellar.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:04 am

Elorrum wrote:Gyre, this is small about 4x9". it is a dual voice coil, and can be wired l/r at 4ohms ea. specs say so no ears are harmed with this wiring. I'm going to mount it in a flat board, and put that in a cylinder, dividing the volume per specs, band pass single tuned enclosure. The only opening will be the port. http://www.baysidenet.tv/catalog/pdf/LAT250-004.pdf
design is being driven by size mainly. I have a very small t-amp board, 15 watts. the crossover is bigger than the amp board actually. I have two small 2" 4 ohm speakers that were marketed as good mates for this sub, those I want to make pvc tl speakers out of. I'm thinking of putting the amp and crossover and small 12V battery in an ammo can. should be playa friendly. vocal, and acoustic instrument quality main desire, not volume.

I'm at the quit shopping and just make it phase, and will see how it sounds. Best choice is always the unmade project for me. I think you are right that two larger single driver speakers would most likely in the end sound better, but I think this sub is so cute, and unusual... what can I say? My amp this year was a 1.5 watt cana-kit stereo in an altoids tin, with two t.v. speaker take outs. Total cost about 20 bucks. I've run that with souped up drive in speakers as well. decent at low volume and very transportable. It seems the time I invest in these things has not had a huge payoff in playa admiration or use even. I listen when I make coffee, or cook dinner and that's about it. Have you seen the photos of the fellow in Italy who made a huge folded horn subwoofer that fit under his entire living room? It was a masonry project like a strange wine cellar.

however, no ears have died from sending the right low
to one side and the left low to the other

?????
Any idea what this means?

Are you using two drivers in a compression style cabinet?

Is the T amp the Sonic Impact amp?
This is 9 watts at 4 ohms, but reviews are good.

They specify 140 hz for that sub design, maybe a little optimistic.
I think the 2 inch speakers will be too small to take over that low, at least with any power.

Any idea how these all match up in sensitivity?
Crossovers need to balance all these things together.
Passive, I'm guessing?
Two way?
Do you know the crossover frequency?

pvc tl speakers

tl?

I haven't seen that particular underfloor one.
Sounds interesting though.
Masonry is a good material, as long as you aren't trying to isolate the bass.
I have seen a similar design to go under the floor or on top of it in existing houses.

There are some interesting speakers with glass cabinets.
It's not a bad choice, though costly if you buy glass new these days.
I've been offered some heavy glass.
Maybe I should make cabinets?

I have toyed with facing compression type bass systems, including slot loaded.
I couldn't detect any real advantage, though it did work.
Might be useful for dispersion control.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:39 am

Gotta love this place. Dropping in for coffee and we get a DIY helpers guide to 2 stroke engines and electronic projects!

Hope all the projects come out well and new friendships are formed in the meantime.

coffee, please, ygmir. Love that machine you have today.

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:04 am

Perhaps I've misrepresented what I actually understand here, so, you're not buying the "because it will be kind of neat" arugument for this project? I mean, I like my little amplifier in an altoids tin. this is where I'm coming from. I don't expect the best sounding system. I just want pretty good for the size.

I bought an amp card with the tri-path 2020 chip, similar to the sonic impact, (I have a sonic impact, it's very cool, inspired me to build one.) expecting 15 watts

2" Full Range Driver 4 Ohm "can be paired with the Tymphany LAT250 for great bass performance" *Frequency response: 150-20,000 Hz

tl=transmission line. speaker speak I should understand better before I use it... means to me, a straight piece of pvc pipe with 90 degree fitting on top that holds the speaker. this design is supposed to help with the bottom end of a single driver speaker.

passive crossover: "for dual voice coil subwoofer systems, 12 dB per octave low-pass slope for the subwoofer. High-pass outputs, 130 Hz crossover frequency." This may be the weak link in the system, but the small speakers are full range. If I can't use the ready bought crossover this might be the part to learn more about.

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:09 am

(and they aaaaalllll moved away from me on the bench)

quickly I say, "BEER. tits! shot of whiskey!"

(and they all came back, and we had fun playing shuffleboard)

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:52 am

I'm still a little confused about how you're mounting the 4 x 10.

Even if the 2" drivers are full range, the lower you cross them over, the more energy is used going to lower ranges and the less volume you can get from them.
Full range drivers that small are rare, more headphone size.

The crossover should work for that frequency, if impedance oddities aren't an issue.

The sonic impact puts out 9 w/channel usable.
15 w/channel very high distortion- not usable. 10% distortion
But reviews are very good, esp for the price.
If you bought a board amp, keep in mind heat sinking and ventilation.
Chip amps are by nature sensitive to heat.

If you ever get euro stuff running on 50 cycles, it must be run on lower voltage.
Mostly an issue with electronics, but I have lamps with the same problem.

I have a fisher chip amp with amazing quality.
Oil cooled heat sinks.
It blew up and shot fire into the air.
Only needs one chip replaced though.
If anyone wants it, let me know.
I think it was just turned up too loud on 60 cycles.
Very high end, never sold here.

Got a link to that under sub?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:15 pm

What I've heard is "House Rich, Cash Poor" or maybe even "Land Rich, Cash Poor."

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:16 pm

Elorrum wrote:Perhaps I've misrepresented what I actually understand here, so, you're not buying the "because it will be kind of neat" arugument for this project? I mean, I like my little amplifier in an altoids tin. this is where I'm coming from. I don't expect the best sounding system. I just want pretty good for the size.

Being able to "settle" for "pretty good" seems like one of the paths to happiness in an overabundant society.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 pm

Hey Crypto!

Time for a pre-party drink. I'm thinking a bit of scotch.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:32 pm

Hi Sputnik;

I'll join you for a scotch!

how 'bout a little Neil Young...

[youtube][/youtube]

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:36 pm

Yay!

Two scotches coming up!

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:31 pm

How about some Cake?

[youtube][/youtube]

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:44 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Elorrum wrote:Perhaps I've misrepresented what I actually understand here, so, you're not buying the "because it will be kind of neat" arugument for this project? I mean, I like my little amplifier in an altoids tin. this is where I'm coming from. I don't expect the best sounding system. I just want pretty good for the size.
Being able to "settle" for "pretty good" seems like one of the paths to happiness in an overabundant society.

I'm just trying to help Elorrum end up with something they're happy with.

Pretty good is all you ever get with speakers without spending cubic cash.
There is no best really, except in comparison to another piece of equipment.
For this reason, I have never bought a speaker new that I can recall, except for a car.
Speakers are the weak area in audio.
They have enormous failings compared to the electronic parts of a system.
It's a physics issue.

But I am familiar with a lot of issues encountered when piecing things together.

The only 2" full range speakers normally seen are for walkman.
A good example of the range of quality often seen are those.
I looked at many up to $100 a pair,and chose a pair of the sport walkman without an amp built in, over all others because they sounded better.
They were actually louder with no amp too.
Just efficient.
And $15 at the time, or less.
But there are physical limits to what a certain size can do.
(Bose touting of magic to the contrary)

There can be a problem with physically separated bass and higher freq speakers, but I'm presuming Elorrum, that you're aware of this anyway.
Physics again.

I am curious as to what kind of 2" drivers you found and any specs.
Are you going through the Parts Wholesale catalogs and places like that?
There are some gems to be found sometimes.

And 9 watts is plenty if you have efficient enough speakers.
With enough damping, 9 watts will drive my big bass drivers.
I once plugged a portable radio into a klipschorn.
It wouldn't produce any bass, but it got fairly loud with less than a watt.
So sensitivity becomes the most important thing in a portable.

Sensitivity or efficiency is the audio power produced with 1 watt of electricity.
It is usually measured as decibels at one watt at a certain distance.
Always check the distance when comparing.

Anyway, nothing but "pretty good" in speakers.
In our society, you can go pretty far up the food chain in speakers if you like, without spending a lot, thanks to fashion and the waf*.

*wife acceptance factor

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:03 pm

Neil! Neil! Neil! Love his bridge concerts, attend whenver I can. I thought the American Masters show that PBS did on Neil was quite good.

Gyre,
I don't think the speaker picture alone shows the shape well... it looks like a stack of ho-ho's with a plastic flange (plane) bisecting the stack. This plane gets expanded by mounting it on a board, then putting that inside the cylinder like the plane that is drawn in the yellow diagram. I've picked a cylinder as the enclosure, because I don't think I could manage the number of accurate cuts a box would need, or a much of a place to fabricate. I can manage a board, and some cylinder caps.

glad you think the crossover will work. all parts available (they have a dayton version of the sonic amp... exactly the same) at parts express.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=299-271

I got the amp pictured off ebay from china.
here's the little t-amp... if any of this was cherished or wonderful, I wouldn't bring it to the playa. it's just makin' stuff. It runs on 12V DC. I'll start another thread when I get more photos. Sorry to fill the bar with this today. thanks for your indulgence.

any world war one flying aces care to join me for a mug of rootbeer?

Oldguy · Post by **Oldguy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:16 pm

Sure, I'll have a frosty mug if you drop a scoop of Vanilla icecream in it. 13 hours no solo but I learned to land not like those Saudi boys. Will an old paratrooper do?

A bright blue September sky, 9:37 am, the plane struck the Pentagon. In remembrance of the passengers and those within the building. Lift you mugs.

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:18 pm

http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm sub underfloor construction in italian.... bablefish is good if you want to read it

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:12 pm

aaahhhh ... italy ..........

i'd rather drink a negroni ...

anyone else? or is everyone at decom tonight ... ?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:47 pm

Elorrum wrote:http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm sub underfloor construction in italian.... bablefish is good if you want to read it

This is one of the best subwoofers I have ever seen.
The long tube underfloor systems I've seen were even longer, but were less tall so they could be built over an existing floor.
There is a full range front loaded horn here built of concrete and lead.
Quite large, of course.

This is a stereo sub with great efficiency for 16 18" drivers.
The whole system is very efficient throughout.
The only fault I find in their show studio is the common crutch of using sound absorption in lieu of good acoustic design.

The SUBWOOFER efficiency is 120dB/ 1 Watt/1 meter.
Acoustic level at listening position (6 meters from frontal speakers) are 100 dB with 1 Watt.

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm
http://www.royaldevice.com/custom3.htm

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:40 pm

littleflower wrote:aaahhhh ... italy ..........

i'd rather drink a negroni ...

anyone else? or is everyone at decom tonight ... ?

No decomp here.
Do you drink them with gin?

I wish I had an aranciata right now.
Do you like chinotto?

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:57 pm

Ellorum; Have a secret to share. I saw the new film on Neil Young, directed by Jonathon Demme at the Woodstock Film Festival. Then the other day the publicist for the film emailed to say they got a distribution contract for the film. It will be released on March 19, 2010. So mark that date on your calendar folks. This film was fantastic! It's called the Neil Young Trunk Show. Essentially its a documentary of the production of a Neil Young show. If you're a fan, you won't want to miss this one.

I have a chance to interview both Jonathon Demme and Neil Young shortly to write articles in anticipation of the release. Just working out dates and location because neither were able to be at Woodstock, unfortunately.

Heck, I'm so excited I can hardly stand it. I felt privileged just seeing the show among the other premiere audience. It was fabulous.

Now back to the electronics workshop...

Oh and I'm having red wine tonight.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:03 pm

hey, audio is bar talk for some of us!

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:08 pm

Heck, gyre I'm not dissing what you guys are up to. AT ALL. I'm enjoying watching the project come together. I only understand 1/8 of what is being said but it looks like fun. I applaud Ellorum's gumption to work on a project now for the next burn. I've hardly decompressed yet and he's already recompressed!

Carry on.

Oh and I saw Oldguy pop in here again. Were you at the burn this year, sir. I was wondering, based on your para experience, if you heard anything further on the skydivers (3) whose main chutes didn't open properly.

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:21 pm

*Dog wanders in*

Hey hey all! How is everyone this fine Saturday night? Geez it's been a few days since I popped in and it looks like I've missed a fascinating discussion of speaker systems. How about a Sarsparilla? Maybe some of the vanilla ice cream in it too! Yum!!

Hope everyone is doing well!!

Doggy lixx

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:26 pm

Sasparilla for the dog.

bigbluedoggy · Post by **bigbluedoggy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:29 pm

Thanks, Deb!

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:36 pm

You are most welcome, BBD. It was a sadness that I didn't get over to the Destiny Lounge. My dance card was full and every time I tried to meet with people (and dogs) on my list, something or someone else came along. Next year will be better and I will get to meet you!

magicmarty · Post by **magicmarty** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:01 pm

Hi Deb, did enjoy meeting you. Sounds like you have a great gig coming up with those interviews. Big time!

See you next year in the Metropilis Hard to think of the Playa as a Metropolis. I kinda go there to get removed from a Metropolis. But hey, that's just me

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:05 pm

Hi magicmarty; Great pleasure to meet you at the Artery. Sorry no time for a foot massage. Next year.

Oh my, will I spend the whole year apologizing.

Actually it was the chat I was looking forward to. I have given much thought to your wise words - it's never as good or as bad as it seems, it's always sort of in the middle. When things have seemed out of control, I just think of your words and stop focussing on the chaos and get to work on the next step. It's been a godsend. Bless you.

magicmarty · Post by **magicmarty** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:18 am

Deb,

What a lovely message to wake up to this morning! Made my day plus

goathead · Post by **goathead** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:15 am

gh stopping in for a real quick cup of coffee.

hell for the next two weeks, plant shut down.
should not be fun.