2009 Moop map

Fire_Moose · Post by **Fire_Moose** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:41 am

http://www.vhemt.org/

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:54 am

Fire_Moose wrote:http://www.vhemt.org/

A quote from that site: wrote:A major goal of our web site is to advance the population-awareness movement, which seems to have become stalled, and may have slipped back to where it was more than 35 years ago. Progressive population awareness groups advocate a one-child average and two maximum, but few, if any, dare to advocate zero procreation. Environmental groups avoid the controversial topic, preferring to work on consequences of our excessive breeding. Scientists acknowledge population's effects, but also decline to include it in their suggested solutions.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:48 pm

Fire_Moose wrote:So in conclusion.....

Children are MOOP

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

(and thanks for bringing this thread back on track!)

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:48 pm

I'm saying stop the breeding

do i need to say it?

as politely as i can, that sir, is exactly what i expect to hear from a non-breeder...

perhaps we could lace some blankets with disease and send them into the poor, uneducated, ethnic areas and stop all these little breeders from being themselves.

que sera sera, indeed....live and let live my ass.

you want equal rights?....then demand and show respect for everyone, johnny...***

***edited for sake of left coast readers who cant deal with the harshing of said mellows by the serrated blade of vicious truth known as the right coast.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:06 pm

I think diapers are the reason that landfills smell so bad.

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:09 pm

depends...

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:48 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
I'm saying stop the breeding

do i need to say it?

as politely as i can, that sir, is exactly what i expect to hear from a non-breeder...

perhaps we could lace some blankets with disease and send them into the poor, uneducated, ethnic areas and stop all these little breeders from being themselves.

que sera sera, indeed....live and let live my ass.

you want equal rights?....then demand and show respect for everyone, johnny...***

***edited for sake of left coast readers who cant deal with the harshing of said mellows by the serrated blade of vicious truth known as the right coast.

Simon, I don't understand your reasoning here at all. "My people" are already busy adopting and rearing all of "your people's" defective kids that nobody else wants.

I have lots of thoughts on raising children, a luxury I have in that I don't have kids and don't want them--personal choice--kids are a HUGH responsibility and you only get one chance to do it right. I certainly wouldn't not want to subject a child to my on-the-job learning trying to raise it only to find that it didn't turn out the way I would have hoped.

I also don't think that both parents should work if they are going to raise children either. There needs to be someone home (a parent) with the kids all the time. (with the exception of the occaisional baby sitter)

I also think that people shouldn't be allowed to have children unless they take child raising classes.

I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that the majority of problems we have with gangs in this country and children in general doing poorly in school is because parents are out working to support the kids and keep up with the Jonses rather than spending their time actually raising the kids.

I'm not against breeding, I'm against uncontrolled breeding. And in my humble opinion, there are more people having kids that shouldn't than those who should; this is the crux of the problem.

JK

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:59 pm

all i can say is "wow"...

what a prissy little bastard.

it's like a gay KKK meeting or something.

by the way, the hoods aren't as scary when they're starched, hon.

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:15 pm

Just imagine how crappy parenting was before they invented the diaper.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:18 pm

obviously, our ancestors put up with a lot of shit so that we might be here...

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:27 pm

so did our parents ... have you ever changed a diaper?

JK, i think you spend too much time watching TV.

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:02 pm

Too much TV?

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:04 pm

OK I'll give you prissy, but gay KKK?

JK

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:07 pm

All right, I just read the "Hostility" thread. I'm done instigating now.

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:59 pm

jkisha wrote:Too much TV?

JK

you speak in generalities that sound like they come from the news.

in real life, there is no perfect parent ... people do their best with what they have. some parents have everything, and totally blow it. some have nothing, and are awesome.

i've known stay-at-home moms who were not very good, single and working moms who were amazing, and dads .. well, same thing.

parenthood isn't about money. and i'm not sure there is any training that will create a good parent from a lousy one, either.

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:28 pm

littleflower wrote:
jkisha wrote:Too much TV?

JK
you speak in generalities that sound like they come from the news.

in real life, there is no perfect parent ... people do their best with what they have. some parents have everything, and totally blow it. some have nothing, and are awesome.

i've known stay-at-home moms who were not very good, single and working moms who were amazing, and dads .. well, same thing.

parenthood isn't about money. and i'm not sure there is any training that will create a good parent from a lousy one, either.

The only TV I watch is political news...MSNBC all the way.

They don't talk about parenting at all. My thoughts are all a product of what I see and my sick mind alone.

JK

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:33 pm

lol .... we don't exactly live in kidsville, do we????

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:43 pm

one of the reasons i love burning man so much is the way it forces us (so-called adults) to think like children, and engage in "Play"...

give a kid two sticks and a rock, and they will make a game, probably a good one.

the ability to imagine and dream, play and create are all child like qualities.

children are our most precious resource, by far...

there is alot we can learn from them, and hence from ourselves since we too once were children.

what you were proposing, and i truly hope it was as devil's advocate, or merely to provoke discussion, is simply wrong, on many levels.

what if someone had decided this about you Mr. Kisha, based on a genetic predisposition towards deviant behaviour?

it's He/She who makes the definitions of what deviant behaviour is that will determine who is allowed to live and who will not.

think hard before you throw any more glass stones at this house of bricks.

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:24 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:one of the reasons i love burning man so much is the way it forces us (so-called adults) to think like children, and engage in "Play"...

give a kid two sticks and a rock, and they will make a game, probably a good one.

the ability to imagine and dream, play and create are all child like qualities.

children are our most precious resource, by far...

there is alot we can learn from them, and hence from ourselves since we too once were children.

what you were proposing, and i truly hope it was as devil's advocate, or merely to provoke discussion, is simply wrong, on many levels.

what if someone had decided this about you Mr. Kisha, based on a genetic predisposition towards deviant behaviour?

it's He/She who makes the definitions of what deviant behaviour is that will determine who is allowed to live and who will not.

think hard before you throw any more glass stones at this house of bricks.

Just because solutions are not easy and wisdom can be fallable and people are subject to their own prejudice, doesn't mean sensitive issues shouldn't be discussed. There is no thought that I have expressed here that I wouldn't apply to myself--even if it meant my early demise, should I come to the conclusion it is best for all concerned. To me this entire discussion was just a thought experiment--this is not to say that I don't have a certain fondness for some of the ideas I advanced, but my intent was only to provoke and not to offend. Frankly Simon, based on some of your previous posts, I'm a bit surprised you found this offensive at all. But obviously, it's time to move on. Sorry to all those that took offense.

JK

Post by **mdmf007** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:30 pm

WTF?

this thread has spun to the dark side of snark. Gay KKK, global birth control?

I agree with you both.

1. JK - IMHO Simon is right. We cant tell others not to have children, uncontrolled breeding is your innate right as a human.

2. On the other hand Simon, JK is right. Regionally supporting uncontrolled growth far exceeds available resources. We are coming close to the point of hive collapse. Most estimates put that number at around 9 billion people which we can support with good logistics and dissemination of resources. 9 billion will happen around 2050 by best estimates. At that point a number of factors will be self fixing.

Global wars for resources will reduce populations
Global famine will further reduce the population
Pandemics will further knock the population back

Some estimates put this collapse at as many as 3-4 billion people dead in as little as a 5 year period. One kicker is that we live in the United States. Once we realize we cant solve the problems of the world during this crisis - we will establish a stance of isolationism with Canada and Mexico as allies. Stop exporting our food and live relatively the same lives. Africa, and Asia ont he other hand will suffer the brunt of the true shit.

I wrote this in a college statistics class circa 1990. Using just excerpts from other papers.

of course thats just my opinion, time will tell.

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:31 pm

wow, simon ... that was awesome. thank you.

mdmf007 .... you may be right, or you may be wrong. who knows what will happen? and how can we make such a drastic policy based on what might happen? 3-4 billion die at some point ... that will suck. but if they aren't born at all, isn't that the same thing?

i fear a world with few kids. they are so incredibly special. i don't have any, but my 5 siblings have 13 between them, and they are all amazing. i just can't look at a child and see a statistic. we'll deal with what comes ... but who knows what we might fuck up trying to prevent something that may never happen?

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:36 pm

Has anybody seen "Idiocracy"?

JK

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:38 pm

it is about as far away from the topic of moop map as we can get, so agreed, we'll move on.

i joke around, and am totally un-pc at times....i hope that people understand my sometimes over the top andy kaufmanesque rants as just that.

Rabid Personifications of what i find to be offensive....i go out on a limb sometimes to make my point, and can understand when sometimes i go too far or someone does not "get the joke".

i also get my dander up when i find positions that are to me, ridiculous, or worse, just plain mean. I'm not one to pull punches at that point, obviously.

we have more than enough resources to feed, clothe and shelter as well as medically provide for this entire planet many times over.

perhaps we should try this first before we consider other means simply in order to continue and sustain our unsustainable fabulously high standard of living, generally at the expense of everyone else in the world.

Post by **Elderberry** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:16 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:it is about as far away from the topic of moop map as we can get, so agreed, we'll move on.

i joke around, and am totally un-pc at times....i hope that people understand my sometimes over the top andy kaufmanesque rants as just that.

Rabid Personifications of what i find to be offensive....i go out on a limb sometimes to make my point, and can understand when sometimes i go too far or someone does not "get the joke".

i also get my dander up when i find positions that are to me, ridiculous, or worse, just plain mean. I'm not one to pull punches at that point, obviously.

we have more than enough resources to feed, clothe and shelter as well as medically provide for this entire planet many times over.

perhaps we should try this first before we consider other means simply in order to continue and sustain our unsustainable fabulously high standard of living, generally at the expense of everyone else in the world.

Take care of the world? We can't even get universal health care and provide food and shelter for all the people living in this country; yet we spend billions on wars in countries right out of the old testiment.

I don't think I ever said we shouldn't feed, clothe and shelter and provide medical care for anyone, I just added one more item to the list. There is one more item that should also be added--education--after which the 'other' option might become unnecessary.

JK

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:21 pm

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:50 am

Getting back to the topic at hand. Can we possibly consider a movement among the green camps to help out the red ones? I'm all for helping to create a MOOP volunteer squad to help out Root Society and Opulent Temple.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:30 am

thanks deb, that sounds helpful and fun....

i really think community mooping, even during little breaks in the sets would also be community building...a quick 5 minute break, like they do at the cafe where the barristas all dance around, would be a nice brief change from the thump, a chance to catch a breather, and say hi (since you cant talk during the 130 db anyways) to your neighbor/dancer and shoop shoop while you moop..

i know we might lose some of the crowd....so what...many hands make for light work and like i said, anything can be made into something enjoyable with the right sauce.

i enjoy mooping....i wander around for a half hour, picking up potential treasure, but more importantly, the whole time i interact with passers by and physically demonstrate to them the LNT philosophy...Alot of people will join in either thru guilt, or the desire to participate.

Larry talked about shame as a motivational tool...that works, community shame, but so does community pride and effort.

joining together, en masse, to create or accomplish something, is a gift in itself, and can be very rewarding.

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:39 am

Deb Prothero wrote:Getting back to the topic at hand. Can we possibly consider a movement among the green camps to help out the red ones? I'm all for helping to create a MOOP volunteer squad to help out Root Society and Opulent Temple.

i'll help out too, deb ... maybe start a thread on it, and plan a party/meeting for that tuesday, to organize somewhat by days and location? i don't mean to suggest we force anything, but some organization couldn't hurt.

pinemom · Post by **pinemom** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:53 am

wow...no comment on where this thread went for a few.....

Hey, This would be fun'ner...the Dj's could stop the music and tell the class...ok kids...get picking up your moop....5-10 mins...we'll check and then turn on the Music again...

I betcha not only will they stay...but the whole place would be cleaned up in 4 minutes!!!

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:11 am

I thought that too, but when I visualize the music stopping all I can see is ravers running away and finding music in the dome next door(especially at RootSocIEtY)

think of all the pacifiers that will be dropped in the process, it's just gonna make more moop !

2009 Moop map

BullFlog.