Global Cooling

[Ugly Dougly]

in conversation, it comes out she traded in a two year old car for it, has a ski boat, jet skis, loves to go for "road trips" in her motorhome, heats with electricity.....on and on......

Maybe you know people who commute every day on jet skis and ski boats. Not in this eplayan's zip code.

I think that we start by giving people credit for making a good first step, in whatever way that they can.

If Easter Island's famous culture died out the way that we think, they probably had a lot a of blame-shifting, smugness and other non-productive rituals on their way down to their particular hell.

Pray that we are not that short-sighted.

[ygmir]

in conversation, it comes out she traded in a two year old car for it, has a ski boat, jet skis, loves to go for "road trips" in her motorhome, heats with electricity.....on and on......

Maybe you know people who commute every day on jet skis and ski boats. Not in this eplayan's zip code.

I think that we start by giving people credit for making a good first step, in whatever way that they can.

If Easter Island's famous culture died out the way that we think, they probably had a lot a of blame-shifting, smugness and other non-productive rituals on their way down to their particular hell.

Pray that we are not that short-sighted.

yeah, I agree.......of course, good for anyone trying to do the "right thing".......I was just put off by the smug attitude and judgment of others, she thought weren't doing "as much" as her........

nope, no one I know commutes over water.........I was making the point that she still has a hugely larger "carbon footprint" that many of those she chastises for their choices.........

I understand, we're all hypocrites, and, I'm far from the exception to that statement........just sometimes, things like that irk me.........

I do admire you, though, Dougly,......you are a good barbarian........
boffer sword and all.......

[dr.placebo]

I'm not inclined to make a big case out of people's individual decisions unless they are particularly egregious. We all do something (or even more than something) that is not in the positive direction, regardless of the axis chosen.

But here's a link to an interesting story from the AP that examines whether the "global cooling" trend is real:

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ap ... 74088.html

So I guess that now AP is in on the conspiracy...

[theCryptofishist]

Thanks, doctor.

You can flip a coin and have it land heads up ten times in a row. You flip it a million times and it's going to be very close to 500,000 heads and 500,000 tails. I know that, and I'm not a statistician. You pick the biggest possible sample to follow trends.

[ygmir]

I'd ignore the last two posts, but, then, I'd have to respond to myself.....

[Ugly Dougly]

It really requires some faith in science, in teh scientific method, and in statistics.

That's why I thought it ironic that many nay sayers had faith in the Bible, but none in science etc.

OK, back to work!

[dr.placebo]

And for another set of data that is based on long-term trends, Nature reports that “Dynamic thinning of Greenland and Antarctic ice-sheet ocean margins is more sensitive, pervasive, enduring and important than previously realizedâ€

[dr.placebo]

I am concerned about climate change. I think that bad effects will be here in my lifetime and worse effects for my children and grandchildren. These effects will be worse as we delay and deny. The AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science), one of the premier science organizations in the US, joined by 17 other science organizations, just sent the following open letter to the US Senate:

http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2009/ ... letter.pdf

But there is another crisis upon us, and the evidence is even more stark. I am, of course, referring to the galloping stupidity and credulity in the US. For that, I cite the recent Pew survey where acceptance of the facts of climate change has dropped from 71% to 57%.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1386/cap-an ... ng-opinion

It appears to be easier to tear down public opinion than it is to build it up. All it takes is repeated disinformation with a lack of critical thinking.

[chiefdanfox]

"Time after time the "peer reviewed studies" have, after the data and methods have been reviled, been shown to be bogus."
This is total bullshit, Geekster. Start citing these "bogus" or debunked studies. Peer reviewed means that the methodology and data is scrutinized, prior to acceptance and publication, thereby "revealed" if that is what you meant. You need to start citing sources from the mainstream scientific community, Arctic and Alpine Research, Nature, etc. The places where academics publish hard science.

[Elderberry]

I am concerned about climate change. I think that bad effects will be here in my lifetime and worse effects for my children and grandchildren. These effects will be worse as we delay and deny. The AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science), one of the premier science organizations in the US, joined by 17 other science organizations, just sent the following open letter to the US Senate:

http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2009/ ... letter.pdf

But there is another crisis upon us, and the evidence is even more stark. I am, of course, referring to the galloping stupidity and credulity in the US. For that, I cite the recent Pew survey where acceptance of the facts of climate change has dropped from 71% to 57%.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1386/cap-an ... ng-opinion

It appears to be easier to tear down public opinion than it is to build it up. All it takes is repeated disinformation with a lack of critical thinking.

It worked for politics and health care, why not science and education too? I mean we all know Obama isn't even a citizen.

JK

[geekster]

More people being robbed in the name of "climate change" and "green" whatever:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ss ... tml#_login

State officials deliberately underestimated the cost of Gov. Ted Kulongoski's plan to lure green energy companies to Oregon with big taxpayer subsidies, resulting in a program that cost 40 times more than unsuspecting lawmakers were told, an investigation by The Oregonian shows.

Records also show that the program, a favorite of Kulongoski's known as the Business Energy Tax Credit, has given millions of dollars to failed companies while voters are being asked to raise income taxes because the state budget doesn't have enough to pay for schools and other programs.

The incentives are now under intense scrutiny at the Oregon Department of Energy, which is scrambling to curb their skyrocketing costs.

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/si ... /story.csp

The tax credits can be sold, enriching companies that have nothing to do with renewable energy, and the swelling program is a drain on state revenue, critics say.

...

So far, all three of the solar manufacturers that have received Business Energy Tax Credits have done exactly that.

For example, SolarWorld, the German company that has a huge solar cell manufacturing plant in Hillsboro, sold its first $11 million tax credit to Wal-Mart for $7.37 million. Under the program, Wal-Mart received $11 million in tax breaks over five years.

That rankles critics of the credits, such as Chuck Sheketoff, executive director of the Oregon Center for Public Policy, a budget and tax research group in Silverton.

When SolarWorld sold its credit to Wal-Mart, “(Wal-Mart) got a 49 percent return on their investment at the expense of Oregon taxpayers,â€

[Deb Prothero]

Sounds like an incredibly poorly designed piece of legislation if abuse was that easy and that quick to take advantage of. The idea however is not a bad one - to support green technology. The details however appear to be similar to a WalMart product - good idea poorly executed.

[dr.placebo]

More people being robbed in the name of "climate change" and "green" whatever...

Fraud is rampant in this system. All too often, politicians and businessmen are just as greedy as pimps and pushers, and they are usually harder to catch. The presence of fraud, however, neither validates nor invalidates the excuse used to perpetrate the fraud.

[ygmir]

I note a lot of times, legislation is "quickly enacted", due to some public (political) hysteria or perceived threat (not always), and, not written well.
then, when implemented, it's either unenforceable, or, so rife with loopholes it's easy to cheat, and, (usually) someone can make a fortune on the taxpayers backs........or just as bad, so vague, that, a given LEA or gov agency can apply it as they see fit, under broad interpretation latitudes.

Then, I see the proponents, of said legislation, or, idea behind same, proclaim that it's "well intentioned" and, we shouldn't complain, because they're "trying to do the right thing"...........
And, then, set out a cry to "fix" it..........all the while, we, the earth, or both, get screwed......

[littleflower]

legislation is so complicated these days .....

pass a law, there will be loopholes, and people will find them.

that's just the way it is ............

[dr.placebo]

Just in case "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" means anything to you, the meaning is becoming increasingly rich with irony.


Scientists say Mount Kilimanjaro's glaciers, which cap Africa's highest peak, may be gone within two decades.

from http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/11 ... index.html

[unjonharley]

Skieing opened yesterday.. The earliest ever in the north west..

[theCryptofishist]

And what does that mean? Snow machines? Continued pressure to extend the ski season? Small pocket of "paradoxical reaction"?

Nothing?

[Ugly Dougly]

More moisture available to turn into precipitation due to drastically altered ocean currents or decreased ocean salinity as glaciers melt? Hard to say.

[ygmir]

More moisture available to turn into precipitation due to drastically altered ocean currents or decreased ocean salinity as glaciers melt? Hard to say.

correct!!

[sputnik]

It's quite possible that increased temps will result in an increase in precipitation as well as altered patterns, which may result in local increases in glaciers. However, at this time glaciers are still on the decline, or may have hit a pause at the best.

I still say we need to be wary of drastic action. A global cooldown would probably be worst than a warmup.

[geekster]

* Phil Jones writes to University of Hull to try to stop sceptic Sonia Boehmer Christiansen using her Hull affiliation. Graham F Haughton of Hull University says its easier to push greenery there now SB-C has retired.(1256765544)
* Michael Mann discusses how to destroy a journal that has published sceptic papers.(1047388489)
* Tim Osborn discusses how data are truncated to stop an apparent cooling trend showing up in the results (0939154709). Analysis of impact here. Wow!
* Phil Jones describes the death of sceptic, John Daly, as “cheering newsâ€

[can't sit still]

" they can’t account for the lack of recent warming and that it is a travesty that they can’t"
Sooooo, Mother Natures actions are a "travesty" I suspect that Mother Nature is going to hand us a lot more travesty.

[ygmir]

interesting, how, people with an agenda, will, overlook or obfuscate facts that don't support it..........and, then, claim "pure science"......perhaps unwittingly duped by the original discoverer or thier "editors"......
but, still, unwilling to even admit that their premise may have been skewed.

[dr.placebo]

I am not sure what to make of Geekster's last post. Is it to assert that there is a massive conspiracy against climate change deniers? If so, it leaves me feeling that there must be more to this argument than a flock of out-of-context unconnected blurbs. And the cryptic numbers at the end. Pray tell, what are they?

I do not support falsifying scientific data for any reason. No doubt there are some proponents of climate change who are guilty of it and no doubt there are some deniers of climate change who do it. That is why one looks at the preponderance of the evidence. Cherry picking is intellectually lazy and morally suspect.

When plate tectonics was first proposed quite a few deniers were in the crowd. As the evidence mounted they melted away. Now plate tectonics is generally accepted as a valid description of what happens, except for a few people who claim a religious exemption.

If the climate change issue was less tied to unrelated political and religious causes I feel that the evidence would be more than compelling. Further, we would be trying to mitigate the causes. Over the next century this division may turn out to be one of the deadliest we have ever had.

[Isotopia]

I believe it may be in relation to this story which was in the NYTimes:

Hacked E-Mail Is New Fodder for Climate Dispute

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/scien ... l?emc=eta1

BTW, I agree 100% with your analogy to the early days of plate tectonics. The hew and cry back then was more about bickering almost exclusively within the scientific community. The topic of climate change has been politicized greatly by the media in part, I believe, because of the economic ramifications that the data suggests - not to mention the biological, ecological, social ramifications of letting it continue vs. trying to abate the changes. There'll continue to be denialists hovering around the subject like gnats. I'm confident that eventually all will be revealed.

On the subject of the cited article I'm not sure how much has been taken out of context. What I do know is that if science has been manipulated in any way to drive an agenda then that's bullshit. It's criminal and unconscionable.

[ygmir]

I think part of the argument relates to what "we" can do, that will actually matter.......

is the internal combustion pollution on scale with worldwide volcanic eruptions, outgassing etc?
Is Freon in refidgeration? (only in the industrialized world where it's prohibited)

I don't know, I'm just wonderin' if, it's like spitting in the ocean.......

Not that there's anything wrong with being "greener"......just the opposite, IMHO.......

I'd love to see the data quantifying "natural pollutants" and relating it to human caused, to see if there is a difference in "magnitude, scale, amount".......or whatever unit of measure would apply.

[unjonharley]

It all amount to what is politically correct.
Labelling gas engine a polluter is correct.
No one will talk about the carbon and gass pollutance that go into feeding the worlds fat ass, beef.

[Kodachrome-Burning]

We love to play games and try to second guess what should be common sense, don't we...

There has been a human population explosion of such an enormous scale that if one compares our planet to a single living creature, then humanity's unbridled growth and placement on this living creature very closely resembles a person contracting a rare but swift terminal disease. This has been apparent to me since I was very young, probably around age 6, it is a natural instinct I have had not unlike what an animal feels about it's habitat. It has both a blessing and burden been, probably born of my indian roots.

In my mind, this is the number one problem we face, we have evolved in terms of both socio-economic and technological aspects but actually de-evolved in terms of the "Natural Instinct". We are increasingly more creature comforted, more technologically connected and more abusive of our own bodies. But at the same time, I have never seen a living creature so utterly disconnected from it's habitat than a modern human being.

Human's are surely smart enough to get in trouble on this planet, but I don't think we are quite smart or evolved enough to stay out of it...at least not in time to prevent our eventual demise. So while I was an angry young man in my teens and 20's, passionate about whooping some ignorant a$$, I am now far more contemplative with introspection about my own connection with the natural world and how that relates to others. We are so selfish as a being on this planet that we don't even realize how disconnected we are. We have to constantly refer to humanity when the tough questions arise in terms of global needs as we speak of saving lands for our grandchildren when ultimately it's just the right thing to do, period.

We let the Spotted Owl needlessly take the brunt of an issue to the point that opposition is pissed at a bird when the real problem is that the Owl is merely a symptom of a bigger problem, resulting in wasted intelligence, emotional energy, money and further partisanship.

But I have peacefully come to terms with the notion that at this point in Earth's history, nature will surely spit this bad meal out. But that does not stop me from wanting to be ever mindful of my connection to this world and how to better articulate the idea to others that all the answers to every problem we might ever encounter as a living creature on Earth lie within her prodigious bounds.

So I do the best I can, but I know it is too late, my gut tells me that the most endangered species on this planet is the Human Being and none of what science, labels like Global Warming or Global Cooling can teach us is going to stop the tidal wave of change that we face. In think in the coming years, we are going to be shocked at what happens, but we did it to our selves and it too, is a part of natural evolution, the extinction of Humanity if not totally, at least in a large scale.

I mean, this is common sense, what more do you need? Look at the Midway Gyre group, how on EARTH can anyone deny the swift and deadly impact we have?

http://www.chrisjordan.com/

The answer to that question is we truly lack the courage to face what is headed our way, that is glaringly obvious, at least to me...

[ygmir]

egad.....I sure hope Larry has bought lots of carbon credits for BRC........

Burning man is not necessarily a "low impact" event, in terms of carbon and pollution in general.......on many levels.......

How does that figure into the equation?