The Health Care Bill

[diane o'thirst]

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

This e-mail has since been debunked. It's basically all the bullshit panics, conspiracy theories and untruths floating around the Internet gathered into one place so the anti-healthcare mob can easily reference it.

Politifact has gone past debunking it straight into calling some of what it says outright lies.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ds-check-/

http://www.reasic.org/2009/08/debunking ... formation/

Given that Can't Sit Still is also a Birther (read: conspiracy theory whackjob), it's not too surprising that he'd post this steamin' pile.

Why, Conservatives, why? Why are you against Americans getting the healthcare they need?

[ygmir]

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

This e-mail has since been debunked. It's basically all the bullshit panics, conspiracy theories and untruths floating around the Internet gathered into one place so the anti-healthcare mob can easily reference it.

Politifact has gone past debunking it straight into calling some of what it says outright lies.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ds-check-/

http://www.reasic.org/2009/08/debunking ... formation/

Given that Can't Sit Still is also a Birther (read: conspiracy theory whackjob), it's not too surprising that he'd post this steamin' pile.

Why, Conservatives, why? Why are you against Americans getting the healthcare they need?

are you saying this bill, as is, is perfect and can accomplish everything everyone wants?
If not, then, is it not conceivable that some don't like it?
and, some who distrust government to do anything efficiently, let alone correctly, might be cynical regarding any promises made by government...........

why is it so many on the left take and trust everything, as stated, just because their messiah says it?
The left, and to their credit, has usually been the ones skeptical of government promises and explainations............
why the change?
Do you really think the PTB are different, just because a new "talking head" is in the whitehouse?




nope, I'm not cynical........hahahaha
and, mostly reject left and right wings.......I'm an anarchist, in the true sense.........

[can't sit still]

Ahhh, Diane, you've made yourself perfectly clear. You've coupled together three words; conspiracy theory and whackjob. The depth of your understanding and analysis is truly amazing. There are thousands of power groups in the world, all maneuvering for advantage but, there aren't any conspiracies. A dozen ongoing wars but, no power-plays behind them. Congress approved and funded weather-modification but, there aren't any chemtrails. The UN says that the CIA launders drug money through mainstream banks.... couldn't be true !
One of obama's first acts was to insure that none of his records leaked out without his control; http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13489
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2304500/posts
I'm sure that all of this is just coincidence. I guess that I just don't understand.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

What is so fucked up about the people against health insurance reform is that they were 100% behind Bush and the war in Iraq that spent almost a trillon dollars, but they won't spend it on a better health care system.

No that's fucked up!

France has the best rated healthcare system in the world not the US. they spend 3,400 on each person with 100% coverage. In the US, with our system we spend almost $8,000 and only covers less then 60% of our population.

France controls what the health care industry can charge and that is one way to reduce costs. Here we let the imaginary captialistic system of competition to control prices. yes we see that has always worked in the imaginary world then we have Enron in the real world as the example.

AIIZ

[ygmir]

What is so fucked up about the people against health insurance reform is that they were 100% behind Bush and the war in Iraq that spent almost a trillon dollars, but they won't spend it on a better health care system.

No that's fucked up!

France has the best rated healthcare system in the world not the US. they spend 3,400 on each person with 100% coverage. In the US, with our system we spend almost $8,000 and only covers less then 60% of our population.

France controls what the health care industry can charge and that is one way to reduce costs. Here we let the imaginary captialistic system of competition to control prices. yes we see that has always worked in the imaginary world then we have Enron in the real world as the example.

AIIZ

seems a little "apples and oranges" there, AZ.........

I don't think it's so much some people don't want better healthcare, I do though, think the healthy cynicism towards anything "government run" makes them look close at a huge program as proposed, and, make sure it does what "they" promise..........

With a program that huge, "just anything" won't do..........doing something just for the sake of doing it, can, be counterproductive..........IMHO...........

But, with dialogue and active discussion, (even yelling and screaming), perhaps, compromises can be made and good, solid ideas can surface.........

take some time and get to the bottom of things......it's not as simplisitic as a "messianic edict" to say "lets have better healthcare" and, poof, it happens........

but, working towards it is a good deal, and, it's never a straight, downhill road.

the problem with government controls on things, is, it takes some of the incentive out.......people are greedy;basic human nature.
and, the more money they can make for doing a better job, the more incentive they have to do it..........
you have to convince people to do the right thing, and, be honest and caring, from their hearts, not their wallets.........and, so far, I'd say that's a tough row to hoe...........

I'd think the French example is moot........to many variables to make a good comparison, IMHO.

I'd agree that spending money on "policing the world", or, backing, "power plays of the rich and powerful", is a bad choice........
I'm for more isolationism, let the rest of the globe fall on their own swords, and, we take care of our own, first and foremost.........

[can't sit still]

A lot of people seem to believe that health starts with healthy eating. Wrong, grasshopper !!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/ ... g-disorder
"Fixation with healthy eating can be sign of serious psychological disorder" "people suffering from a serious psychological condition "
I had NO idea that it was so serious. "but sufferers tend to be aged over 30, middle-class and well-educated" That just goes to show you that education isn't everything How can we save these afflicted people and get their health back to the norm of the mainstream?
At least, we have the good Dr Bratman to guide us. He reports the serious case of a woman who died from healthy eating.
http://www.orthorexia.com/
She admitted that she had health problems and ate junk food but, the good doctor claims that it was healthy eating that killed her. http://www.beyondveg.com/finn-k/bio/finn-k-bio-1a.shtml
No health care program is worthwhile while the FDA promotes bad nutrition.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

I notice now that the insurance industry, and we should call them an industry as in profiteering is the main concern, the news industry is being perverted by the amount of cash rolling into their companies.

here a an example of the reporter on CNN,

When I and others in Montana saw the report it was like everyone there were against the Obama plan and didn't even mention that the majority were Obama plan support and out numbered them easily both in the hanger and outside on the streets.

Oh well, America News is just a whore. Flash some money in their face and they'll do anything even blow you!

Now it's about the coops and obama's admin is moving towards that while the majority of Democrats what a public program. Without it, there will be no health reform what so ever.

If so, the government will be spending trillions to keep the hospitals from going bankrupt.

Wait and See!

AIIZ

[diane o'thirst]

AIIZ, I have a darker vision.

Since fearmongering seems to be the Right's meat and drink, what say we offer them a bit of quid pro quo.

Scenario I:
A bipartisan consensus is reached with the healthcare reform bill. Here's the Democratic part of the bill: Purchase of health insurance is mandatory for all Americans. No-one excluded, pre-existing conditions must be covered, everyone has to get it or face thousand-dollar fines.
Here's the Republican part of the bill: Now that health insurance companies cannot, by law, exclude anyone — well, they have to raise their prices to cover those whose health is…compromised. And as we know, America is crawling with cancer, diabetes and heart disease no thanks to our lifestyle and toxins that proliferate through the ubiquitous goods imported from China.
They use this rationale to charge monthly premiums on the order of $3000, $5000, $8000 and $10,000. They use the same rationale to raise deductibles to $1 million.
……………………

Enjoy your house, you won't be in it long. Maybe the government will cut us some slack and just fine us holdouts $1000 a year.

Scenario II:
Socialized healthcare is killed for another generation! Hooray for logic! Hooray for freedom! We showed that fascist nigger a thing or two, didn't we? Don't tread on ME!
And 75 million Americans — more than the U.S. armed forces — continue to be shut out of the great glass towers of the health insurance industry. Let's look at some numbers.
True, about 10 million of that number are illegal immigrants. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but the effect they have is to knock the uninsured Americans number down to 65 million.
Most people who go postal tend to be male, which comprise about 47 - 48% of the population. One out of two men are expected to develop cancer sometime in their life.

He's probably under incredible second and <i>third</i> mortgages which — having no insurance — he had to take out to pay for his cancer treatment, and his oncologist just told him his chances of survival — for only <i>five years at best</i> — stand at around 25%. One chance in four.

That's assuming it's a comparatively-easy treated cancer like prostate cancer. If he's got Stage IV colo-rectal cancer that's metted out to the liver, or kidney cancer, the chances probably drop off from 25% to 15%. If it's something like lung cancer, which is notoriously hard to treat, it may reduce to 10%, or 1 - 5% if it's pancreatic.

At any rate, what I'm trying to get at here, is that there'd likely be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of men across the country, who are tapped out, have slim to negligible chances of surviving and almost certainly will not have a life like they enjoyed before their diagnosis, because they'll be frail, maimed and will never shuck off the two or three mortgage albatrosses around their necks, because now they're damaged goods and probably won't be capable of working for years. The Disabled Americans Act is good but after a cancer battle, you're looking at 1-3 years before you're reasonably functional. They might as well barricade themselves in somewhere and wait to die.

Or maybe they hit on the notion of taking a few along for the ride.
Now who's to blame? You and I would definitely and rightly point the finger at the health insurance corps because of their exclusionist policies. However, they're not in every town.

Some might be embittered enough to target their Congresscritters but there's a chance that they'll die before their Congresscritter comes back from The Hill.

Some might be embittered by Obama building them up with messages of HOPE and then reneging; and for certain, running up to President Obama and pointing a gun at him is as guaranteed a death as jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge used to be, thanks to the Secret Service.

But that would require travel and our hero </snark> is tapped out, remember? A shotgun and a canful of gasoline is a hell of a lot cheaper than a bus or train ticket.

So health insurance corps, Congresscritters and the President are precluded from the target list because of their inaccessibility. What's left?
<i><b>The Damn Hospital.</i></b>

Do the math.

[ygmir]

[Apollonaris Zeus]

OK now I can't get to sleep because some dying asshole is going to start some racial war at the hopital.

It can be all too true!

In NJ, hospitals are closing up shop in poorer communities and other hospitals are feeling the economic stress. These are people as you mention have advance medical problems. problems that could have been address sucessfully at an earlier stages, BUT they didn't qualify for insurance protection. Now that they are in advance stage, the hospital, by law, can't expel them out of the emergency rooms and must treat them. They must also eat the bills. I know of several people that have already filed for bankruptcy or are not bothering to pay off the bills knowing you can't take money from a financial dead person.

Here is what some people are saying in Montana:

Sen Max Baucus and the democratic party are failing USA citizens on health care! Who wants $200,000 health care dollars going to Sen Baucus to spend on a political campaign? Think of the millions upon millions of health care dollars being wasted on political campaigns and lobbyists.

Sen Baucus is so connected to conventional insurance companies he refuses to allow discussion of HR 676 on the table. What's up with that?

Bring on HR 676

I cannot afford elected officials medical insurance. Why should taxpayers be forced to pay insurance for elected officials? They say paying for mine is not affordable. Then how is theirs affordable? Think about it. How many times are we paying considering the number of politicians in our lives?

All taxpayers need coverage, taxpayers need relief and big time reduction in cost.

HR 676 is the only equitable approach that includes all of us.

HR 676 would cover every person for all necessary medical care including
prescription drugs, hospital, surgical, outpatient services, primary and
preventive care, emergency services, dental, mental health, home health,
physical therapy, rehabilitation (including for substance abuse), vision
care, hearing services including hearing aids, chiropractic, durable
medical equipment, palliative care, and long term care.

A family of four making the median income of $56,200 would pay about $2,700 in payroll tax for all health care costs.

HR 676 ends deductibles and co-payments. HR 676 would save hundreds of
billions annually by eliminating the high overhead and profits of the
private health insurance industry and HMOs.

Max might not get re-elected. His popularity has been dropping since the Bush administration for support many of GWB's bills.

Yes, I say lets take away the congressman's insurance policies and let them pay for them. Not the public!

We'll see who will cry the loudest especially congressman who make a million or more a year.

AIIZ

[lurker]

Since fearmongering seems to be the Right's meat and drink, what say we offer them a bit of quid pro quo.

Do you not remember the last 8 years? Or the reaction to virtually ANY Republican proposal fropm the left? If the Republicansd are fearmongering at all, it's they who are dishing out the quid pro quo.

But one would then have to believe the idea that the protests over the healthcare bill are ginned up by Republicans--and that's just not true.

Maybe you could call the base of the protests 'conservative', but they're not wholly Republican. The GOP is a hanger-on. They're hoping to garner some goodwill after all their idiocy over these past eight years.

And most of them are failing.

And 75 million Americans — more than the U.S. armed forces — continue to be shut out of the great glass towers of the health insurance industry.

Here's the thing. Health CARE and Health INSURANCE are not synonymous. They're supposed to be two different things. Health INSURANCE is supposed to be for the big stuff--not for your run of the mill wellcheck visits--or even for a case of the sniffles.

But we've perverted it into that.

Now your physical is a 'claim'. You're not sick, you're just hitting the doc to make sure you stay that way. But that visit is treated just like a visit to the ER to have your head stitched back together.

Insurance is a hedge against disaster--with resources pooled to help out in case that disaster happens. By making every doctor visit a claimant on that 'disaster' money, we lessen the pool. Lessening the pool means premuims have to go up--because the REAL disasters still loom.

The only way to fix the health INSURANCE crisis is to turn health insurance back into insurance.

We don't have a health CARE crisis. CARE is available to all.

Heatlh insurance as we have it now IS the problerm. And it will not become less of a problem if our only solution is to place the workings of insurance into someone else's hands.

[Oldguy]

Last week I posted about my own efforts to get a prescription for my depression. I went to a one hour pre-screening interveiw last wednesday at my countiy's mental health facility.

Today I went back to county mental health for an additional 2 hour evaluation, and yes, I have depression. So I was given an appointment to see a medication therapist for October 30th, a sixty day wait. I was given a handout where 3 clinics were indicated that possibly would provide medical patients interim medications untill the county can see me.

Next, I went to state rehab office to sign consents for records release. Then I went to Human Services Department to check on CMPS card ( medi-cal) renewal. My social worker informed me that he was indeed working on it and should be renewed by next Monday. I knew we had done that paperwork. I qualify for a medi-cal card.

Then I went to my county Health Department to make an appointment to see my doc and politely beg for a Zoloft prescription. I go there next Wednesday afternoon to see my doc,( after picking up two bags of food from the gleaners group). I need to get a renewal on my heart medication and I hope he'll just add the Zoloft to the script.

So, today I went to four seperate county and state agencies to get a prescription, which I may be able to get in sixty days.

Next week, if my doc won't add the psych med to the heart med prescription, I will start going to the other clinics to attempt to get a prescription. Mind you, the meds aren't free and I still will have to pay cash money. But first, I need to find a doc to write the script.

BTW, the private doc I got the original prescription from 10 years ago charged 150 bucks an hour and gave me sample meds after the first visit, after evaluation by an independent clinic. If I had the money, I'd already have the medication I need. The poor ARE treated differently and have to jump thru hoops. Hoops take time.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

All I have to do is wiggle my ass make googoo eyes and the pharmacist will give me medical cocaine and pot for free.

Oldguy, The system is full of abuses many from the professionals that treat you. That plague affects both private and social programs costs. worrying about getting treatment is enough to make most people depressed even if their not diagnosed with depression.

I know some people that are hypochondriacs and head to the emergency room knowing they can't be turn away. They have all these tests only to find out theyre dehydrated and mentally exhausted from playing video games for more then 28 hours.

Now who is really is paying for that visit. It gets spread out and added to every other fee charged to those that can pay. the most expensive ward in the hospital is paid by the insurance companies and the government.

AIIZ

[Ugly Dougly]

[youtube][/youtube]

I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. I haven't been following this, but the most strident of critics seem to be screeching about some provision that draws some sort of line on end-of-life care.

Boo-hoo! Your hair would go grey overnight if you knew what hard choices that Kaiser, Blue Cross and the others are making, that are not subject to public review. And if you have to pay for aunt Martha's hospital bills, you will eventually have to decide how much care is worth your last dollar bill.

[Apollonaris Zeus]

The CBO has finish calculating the Public Option and now states the it will save the government $100 billion dollars then the current non-public option bills!

Here's a link to boot Lieberman and his statement that he will not sign a bill with the public option even though 67% of his constituents favor it!

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/lie ... =fb_share1

[Elderberry]

Joe Lieberman disgusts me. I don't believe that he is still caucusing with the dems. They should have stripped him of his committee chairmanship and all his seniority when he defected. He's gotten over $2 Mil in contributions from health insurance in his state...just enough to buy his vote. Can you say Hartford?

JK

[can't sit still]

The debate is all a bunch of empty posturing. The Dallas FED says that GOV has $ 99 trillion in unfunded liabilities that include medicare and social security and GOV pensions. There isn't any way to have a comprehensive national health care program that ignores medicare and social security. There isn't any way to fund medicare and social security. They can BS all they want about plans that have no possibility of funding. Ratchet-jaw and verbal diarrhea. The Boomers are toast

[ygmir]

hey now........

why can't I have everything I want (not just need) in life provided by the government?
"they" have so much money...........wasting it on wars and going to the moon and all that........there would be a never ending supply if "they'd" just stop those things, and, tax the "rich ** " and "evil corporations" more.........
Then, I could get a government job, not really have to do much, never get fired, and be taken care of perfectly and fed and clothed and healed and housed..........etc, etc...........

and love my gulag............



** rich for this exercise would probably be anyone making over 30K per year

[can't sit still]

Well, the Congressional Budget office says that debt service will take 100% of the federal budget in a few years...... 200% a few years after that. NOW, they say that Medicare and SS will take 100 % of the federal budget by 2050.
"If we add the current national debt of $11.82 Trillion to the unfunded liabilities of $106.8 TRILLION, we arrive at a grand total of $118.62 TRILLION in debt and unfunded liabilities."
http://richterreport.com/content.php?id ... _item_id=0
Somebody better cough up a whole lot of cash real soon.

[cowboyangel]

[youtube][/youtube]

[can't sit still]

Here's a vid that gives a whole new view as to the purpose of Mandatory health care insurance

[Thecatman]

Kind of ironic that if this bill is so great then why won't President Barack Hussein Obama, Senetor Harry Reid and Speaker Madam Polosie and others not take part in it?

[ygmir]

Kind of ironic that if this bill is so great then why won't President Barack Hussein Obama, Senetor Harry Reid and Speaker Madam Polosie and others not take part in it?

funny how that works..........
interesting, how, the current admins. supporters have nothing bad to say about it.........I can't imagine they think it's a panacea........but, I think, they're more willing to let it pass and be worthless, if not "bad and destructive", than, have it fail and see their messiah look bad.

even if they say it's not good, they don't want it to fail. For some reason, they think a super flawed bill is better than no bill at all.........like it'll ever get changed..........yeah.......uh, no..........

[Oldguy]

Back on August 18th I began the process to get meds for my depression. Today, January 9th, I picked up 30 Prozac pills at Wal-mart. They were covered under my CMSP insurance card. I also picked up 30 Nifedipine pills for my hypertension, which were also covered. Just shy of five months, I now have my meds.

The state vocational rehab office verified that I am a permanent disabled senior(pulmonary). I was given a senior disabled bus pass and ID card. Whenever I can collect 2 dollars, I can travel roundtrip to Yuba City for shopping with my foodstamp/EBT card. The long bus runs M-W-F only from where I live on Dial-a Ride.

Now all I need is a job to pay my utilities. Save your money now kids, things get difficult when you near 60. I can apply for SSI in February of 2013, only 3 years away.

[Thecatman]

Now all I need is a job to pay my utilities.

John started his day early having set his alarm clock (Made in Japan) for 6am.
While his coffeepot (Made in China) was brewing coffee (Growin South America),
he shaved with his electric shaver (Made in Hong Kong).
He put on a dress shirt (Made in Dominican Republic) and
some designer jeans (Made in Singapore) and
tennis shoes (Made in Korea).
After making breakfast with his electric skillet (Made in India), he
sat down with his calculator (Made in Mexico) to
see how much he can spend today.
After setting his watch (Made in Taiwan) to
his radio (Made in India),
he got in his car (Made in Korea),
filled it with gas (From Saudi Arabia),
and went searching for a good paying American job.
At the end of another discouraging, unprductive and fruitless day
he checked his email on his computer (Made in Malsysia) for possible leads.
He decided to relax for a while.
He put on some sandals (Made in Brazil),
poured a glass of wine (From France) and
turned on his TV (Made in Indonesia) and
wondered why he can't find a GOOD PAYING JOB in AMERICA.
Now he's hoping to get help from the President (Made in Kenya).
www.ibuyamerican.com

[Ugly Dougly]

They buy our stuff, too. Have you been overseas lately?

[Thecatman]

June 2000 was the last time I travled internationally. We went to Germany, Austria and Switzerland. We ate a McDonalds Heidleberg, Germany and our rental car was a European version of a Ford Taurus station wagon

[ygmir]

why the closed door meetings, when it was promised there would be none?
Why the sweetheart deals for dems to get thier votes, when, there would be none?

just a couple of questions, regarding things I don't understand.

[ygmir]

[littleflower]

June 2000 was the last time I travled internationally. We went to Germany, Austria and Switzerland. We ate a McDonalds Heidleberg, Germany and our rental car was a European version of a Ford Taurus station wagon

i had sworn never, ever to go to macdonald's in europe, but one night we rolled into some town in italy at 10 PM on a sunday, it was dark, we were hungry, we had no idea where our hotel was, and nothing was open but macdonald's. the place was hopping! the food was OK, they had beer, and they were very sweet to us and helped us find our hotel .... i must say, i've been somewhat of a fan ever since!
but dougly is right, there is plenty of US stuff there, especially with the weak dollar. or at least that was true in 2006.