I want to hear more about THIS!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:21 am

Yes.
It wasn't obvious to me at all.
But you're making the rest of us look a little stupid anyway.

Always nice to have more people on here that understand what journalism is.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:40 am

ah, now gyre it was never my intent to make someone look stupid. I was curious myself so I decided to do the work. Then I figured I might as well share it.

Any other burner would do the same. Like you do with your electronic knowledge about which I have no clue. We're just each doing our bit.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:21 am

No accusation.
You could pretend it isn't so effortless though.

Surprised at the electronics reference.
I've forgotten most of it now.
Use or lose it, I guess, and running into things doesn't help either.
I really struggle with the math now.
I suppose I remember some of the more advanced details and not the basics sometimes.

Hey, ever write anything with an editor banging on your chair?
I did that once.
That's a deadline!

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:24 am

Yes, I have written with an editor banging on my chair! I once worked for the "Editor from Hell". She taught me everything I know and wouldn't accept anything less than the best. She was trained by one of the best in journalism: Robertson Davies.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:41 am

Any good writing come from that?

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:44 am

Some of my best. I covered municipal politics at that time. I could skewer a politician in ten words - usually their own.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:03 am

I find the chair banging offputting.
Maybe you can get used to it?

I had to spend a day giving press conferences while in shock.
Maybe things like that made it possible?
Politicians should fear me.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:12 am

I think you can get used to it. Its not so much the chair banging as the looming print deadline that forces the words to come.

Shock is a state that protects the brain from exploding I think. I've done entire press conferences without remembering a single thing that I said.

Politicians do fear me but they also know they better answer my questions or I'll write that they were uncooperative.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:15 am

I'd say, politicians should fear all journalists, but, for differing reasons.

I'd imagine, Deb, you are a very fair, balanced reporter who would keep things in context.......but, I'd say that is not widespread.......

Politicians, IMHO, are not worth much........and know it. So, they need scrutiny....but, also, fairness.........

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:32 am

ygmir, it's the fairness that challenges politicians. They don't like that I'm going to question both sides of an issue and then attempt to find the truth in the middle. Politicians just want to use the press to sell their message and they don't appreciate being questioned by someone who has done a bit of research and can ask a hard question.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:36 am

For our local politicians, fairness really doesn't matter.
You can't hurt the honest ones.
All they really have to fear is journalists that aren't lazy.
That's why private citizens can do so much damage.
Too much undone and the crooks know it.

We have the worst scripps-howard paper in the bunch, with no budget.
Then the tv news.
They only break stories when forced to.
Our giveaway paper breaks many stories.

We had a lot of politicians go to jail here recently.
Soon I'll be gifting the city with a few organizations that will give the crooks fits.
I once tipped a reporter to one story and they found a different scandal by accident.
It's that easy sometimes.
All you have to do is shed light.
It's like looking for corruption in capone's chicago.

http://memphiswatchdog.org/
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/joe ... id=1667523

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:38 am

Deb Prothero wrote:ygmir, it's the fairness that challenges politicians. They don't like that I'm going to question both sides of an issue and then attempt to find the truth in the middle. Politicians just want to use the press to sell their message and they don't appreciate being questioned by someone who has done a bit of research and can ask a hard question.

I concurr......hold their feet to the fire........

I was just saying, I've seen some very biased reporting, both directions......
I'd sure like to see more like you out there..........

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:03 am

Looks like gyre is involved in a project that holds politicians to account. Those are interesting links, gyre. I wonder if an online thing like that could work here. Problem is you need some advertisers to cover your expenses and a small salary. Might be worth looking into though since our local newspaper has gone to the dogs too.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:05 am

Deb Prothero wrote:Spectabilis; I can empathize with giving up. The information was all over the place and deeply hidden in some cases. Took me several hours to compile and the hardest part was finding the information in the first place. There is a break in how they manage web content for the BLM in 2005 so its a pain to find stuff after that date which is counter-intuitive, in my opinion.

Anyway, I did go back and update the document with sources. Hope this helps. Some of the documents are massive .pdfs but for those I've indicated the page number to search for.

Oh and BLM runs the Incident Command Post out there so they report on Pershing County numbers too in their final reports. I have found this to be accurate information by checking with Pershing so I've just used BLM final reports.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARqZN ... amQ0&hl=en

Oh and there is much more information that could be added to a chart. Number of arrests by tribal police during entry and exodus would be interessting. And number of helicopter evacs, etc. There isn't consistent reporting though from year to year so it would be apples to oranges.

Just wanted to bring this back onto the page so others who are interested will see it.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:23 am

The two links aren't mine, just an example.
The Flyer is a free paper and outperforms our "real paper" routinely.
Joe Saino has done very good work.

I plan a couple of crimewatch groups that will run without me, once structured properly.
Plenty of energy that just needs to be guided and publicized.
It's like organizing a union.
The real danger is for the person starting it.

Nice work, Deb.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARqZN ... amQ0&hl=en

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:03 am

Thanks Deb!

Some interesting derivations;

People People BLM Fee People People
per per per per per
Year BLM LEO Persh Person Arrest Citation
=== ===== ==== ===== ===== =====
2003 n/a n/a $19.62 3059 164
2004 807 2959 $19.91 7102 161
2005 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a
2006 867 2607 $21.56 6517 240
2007 1044 2401 $18.75 3201 92
2008 1087 1389 n/a n/a n/a

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:07 am

Wow. Tables don't work here.

Chairs are kinda iffy, too.

Cause we can expect Fishy to walk away from a bad joke.
Or, indeed, anything.

Deb Prothero · Post by **Deb Prothero** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:06 pm

Dragonfly Jafe;

I'd love to know what you were getting at. I tried to decipher it but without comment I can't make heads nor tails of it.

The Google Docs thing works really well if you have a google account. At least I think everyone that wanted to was able to access the chart I made over there.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:04 am

I was waiting to post this until my trial date passed as did not want to take any chances on upsetting any higher powers.About a month ago I wrote to the BM lawyer and outlined what I felt were some aspects of my case. Here is my letter and reply:(names withheld)

(from me)

Hello ,We were in touch earlier about a citation I received for "under age drinking".You referred me to lawyer P.He wanted $750 for his services and after not returning any phone calls I lost confidence in him.So I took on the project myself. Bottom line was my case was dismissed and I am pleased with that and thank Lake Township for their consideration. However there are some aspects of this case that lead me to believe that this was nothing more than a premeditated cash grab by Pershing County and not in line with anything that BM signed on for. I do not believe the county had any intention of actually following through on any citations that were contested in the least.They wrote them out hoping for a hefty check from those who due to geography or other reasons could not fight them. For example:

Why is"bail"$1,120 when the fine is $500?

After I pled"not guilty"I asked for all evidence against me to be sent to my address.This "discovery" and what I got consisted of nothing but a Xerox copy of my original citation.This is after the officer who issued the citation insisted to me the whole incident was"recorded".Seems to me they had nothing and were bluffing.

A bit of legwork by myself and a call from a lawyer friend was all it took to get the case dismissed which again leaves you to believe this was a less than honorable operation from the get go.

I appreciate your help in the original situation. thanks

(from the lawyer)

Thank you so much for taking the time to give me a followup about your case. I'm so glad you were able to get it dismissed!

I'm not happy that the lawyer wasn't so prompt in contacting you. I will definitely keep your feedback in mind the next time I make a referral.

I'm deeply troubled by Pershing County's behavior. Doing the sting and writing the tickets was bad enough, but not having any intention of even taking their part seriously is pretty low. We have seen that kind of behavior from BLM, but this year was the first time that Pershing started writing bogus tickets as revenue generators.

Kudos to you for taking action on your own behalf to get it dismissed. Don't worry I won't mention your name. But, I would like to share your experience with other burners so that they feel empowered to challenge citations also. Please let me know if that would be okay. Also, we're going to address this with the County in general, but again, I won't use your name. best regards.....

So hopefully this will serve as a booster shot of courage to anyone unlucky enough to be involved in this mess next year.Again thanks for all the feedback from E-playans.Our camp WILL be back next year with a lesson well learned and our "bar"retired forever.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:20 am

[youtube][/youtube]

well, done, and, thank you.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:03 pm

Glad to hear it.

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:39 pm

Deb Prothero wrote:Dragonfly Jafe; I'd love to know what you were getting at. I tried to decipher it but without comment I can't make heads nor tails of...

Yeah, bummer Geocities is no more....

Points were;

-Fee per person has been constant at ~$20 each

-People per BLM Officer has been ~constant (1000 people/BLM Officer)

-People per Pershing County Officer was constant until 2008 (3000 people per Officer until 2008, then 1500 people per Officer - a 2x increase)

-Persons per arrests peaked in 2003 and 2007 (appx. 3000), but the middle years it was more like 7000 persons per arrest

-Persons per citation has been reasonably consistant at between 150-200 persons each.

-REMSA visits are constant at ~2000 per year

-Population has steadily increased each year, as has the TOTAL fee paid to BLM.

What this means to me:

1) LEO's were dickheads in 2003 and 2007, focusing on arrests instead of citations. in 2007 they focused on BOTH arrests and citations.

2) REMSA visits appear to be resource capped...(need more resources?)

3) The Bmorg is not getting greedy by raising costs

zachass · Post by **zachass** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:09 pm

First, congratulations Zorro. Really well played. Also, a hearty thanks to everyone who provided encouragement.

This is really scary to me as '10 will be my first burn. It's scary to me for a couple of reasons:

1. Running a smallish bar is something I'd like to do, if in fact I camp with the people that I know who are going in '10. Not sure about that yet, but regardless - entrapment for serving minors in a place like Burning Man seems rather difficult to avoid at times. This seems evident by others' accounts of citations last year.

2. In my everyday, I'm clean-cut to say the least....I look like a marine or a cop (actually my friends tell me I look like your standard issue Nazi. I've stopped feeling bummed out about that - they mean it in jest.) I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about being fingered as a narc. I like to dress in costume, so I hope that will help. That's just my own little insecurity there, so hopefully when I get there it won't rear itself.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:51 pm

zachass wrote: 1. Running a smallish bar is something I'd like to do, if in fact I camp with the people that I know who are going in '10. Not sure about that yet, but regardless - entrapment for serving minors in a place like Burning Man seems rather difficult to avoid at times. This seems evident by others' accounts of citations last year.

As someone who participates in the running of a bar at the event, let me assure you, you can protect yourself with proper vigilence.

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:19 pm

Tonight there was a meeting -
The Washoe County Bar Association : Burning Man & the Law.

Last year, there were 11 citations given for underage serving in playa bars.
All 11 citations were dismissed.

Currently, there is only one lawsuit involving BMOrg against an outfit in France that named their clothing store Burning Man.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:28 am

Last year, there were 11 citations given for underage serving in playa bars. All 11 citations were dismissed.

washoe county sherrifs dept, right?

what about pershing? blm?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:49 pm

Now, since very few burners carry their wallet or purse....maybe a handstamp should be tattoed on participants, 21 and older, at the gate. Is simply asking a quick date of birth question legally binding? I've always been careful, but have had a few embarassing moments, when a girl, "clearly" under 18, provided a license, that said she was 26.

Maybe a photo lanyard Pic ID? A logistical nightmare, for BM, I'm sure...but this has always been a concern for me.

geospyder · Post by **geospyder** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:33 pm

spectabillis wrote:
Last year, there were 11 citations given for underage serving in playa bars. All 11 citations were dismissed.
washoe county sherrifs dept, right?

what about pershing? blm?

Thought Washoe County just cruised in and out while the rest of the agencies stayed.

Post by **Sham** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:49 am

Risky, do you have any type of transcript or link to that meeting regarding underage drinking arrests? Statistics on the various infractions are fairly hard to come by, but I am always amazed at how low those figures are despite the large LEO presence.

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:48 am

Let me see what I can find.
Stay tuned...