Has anyone ever done a methane digester on the playa?

[girl Mark]

I semi-seriously proposed to my theme camp that we build a methane digester for handling some of our poop (we have the resources and knowledge to do this) and they seem to have taken me up on the offer.

Before anyone tries to tell me it's difficult to run these in BM conditions- I work in alternative fuels and have seen quite a few different digesters of all sizes and levels of complexity/simplicity, and know what the problems tend to be. In my proposal we wouldn't really be trying to handle all of our waste, just a small portion of it, mostly as an educational or demonstration project, while producing a small amount of relatively low-pressure methane that would presumably fire a small fire sculpture at night. We have enough technical skill in my group to pull this off and control access to the 'feeder' toilet, so I'm probably not really looking for much technical advice on what could go wrong (even though so much could!).

Has anyone ever done a digester at BM? Any idea whether we'd incur the wrath of the health department by doing something like this?

I wasn't there the year of the 'green' theme- were there any installations that handled biologically scary waste (like misting people with greywater, a proposal that comes up quite a bit and seems like a really bad idea), and does anyone know if they had any major difficulty with the health department or other official channels on getting it approved?

[Tiahaar]

Look up the folks who put blood sweat and tears into the Mechabolic project for the Green Man, their website is here: http://www.mechabolic.org/

[Bob]

If you managed to get a permit from them, why would the Nevada State Health Division complain?

[girl Mark]

Mechabolic is a totally different technology. I don't think feces was involved, either.

[oneeyeddick]

where does anyone even mention "feces" ?

[Captain Goddammit]

A night light that runs on doo doo... what will they think of next?!

[Ugly Dougly]

I would never "do" a methane digester, assuming you mean sexually.

[girl Mark]

[quote="oneeyeddick"]where does anyone even mention "feces" ?[/quote]
I do, in the first sentence of this thread.

[girl Mark]

[quote="Captain Goddammit"]A night light that runs on doo doo... what will they think of next?![/quote]

Actually, ideally, it'd be a water heater that runs on doo doo- but the heat exchanger for the water heating system is more likely to at least be disguised as some kind of fire art.

[dragonfly Jafe]

A night light that runs on doo doo... what will they think of next?!

Actually, ideally, it'd be a water heater that runs on doo doo- but the heat exchanger for the water heating system is more likely to at least be disguised as some kind of fire art.

...using poo in a shower system maybe?

[girl Mark]

um, no.

[Dr. Pyro]

This sounds like a job for Robbidobbs! Super heroine to the jots.

[Captain Goddammit]

Actually, ideally, it'd be a water heater that runs on doo doo- but the heat exchanger for the water heating system is more likely to at least be disguised as some kind of fire art.

OK you wanna make steam with doo doo... you're not from Cleveland, are you?

[Elliot]

Every JOTS has a vent pipe out the top. Just put a pilot light on that and wait for... well, some old fart like me to use the thing.

[special effect] PA-FOOOOFFFF!!!

[voice in the distance] Hey, I found Elliot!

[unjonharley]

Girl,

Might suggest first.. (If you expect an ansewer) Don't come on bragging how qualified you are.. There are people on eplaya more qualified in any subject.. Next after how smart you are.. Don't try to tell us what you don't want to hear back..

I hope you and your team bring a good project to the playa this year.. Many people will be very interested in it.. I for one am interested in humanure disposel on a small scale.. All the better if I could boil a pot of water with it..

[Bob]

"Methane digester" is a misleading euphemistic term. Call a turd a turd. I dropped out of the turd business in 1998, when the health department threatened to shut down the event if my turd shower and other turd installations didn't cease and desist.



But if you're familiar with turd digesters, then you should already be familiar with permitting, no?

[girl Mark]

[quote="unjonharley"]Girl,

Might suggest first.. (If you expect an ansewer) Don't come on bragging how qualified you are.. There are people on eplaya more qualified in any subject.. Next after how smart you are.. Don't try to tell us what you don't want to hear back..
[/quote]

Well, I'm mostly asking two questions: 1)has anyone done it before on-playa
and 2) can you think of any specific permitting or (more importantly) organization rules we'd be running afoul of?

What I'm trying to avoid is having a bunch of people who've never done it tell me it can't be done, it won't work with humanure, it's dangerous, etc. I did have exactly those responses (and boy were they off-base technically) on another forum. I'm not looking to do a brainstorming thread about the technical side of the project.

That's the point of saying that we've 'got it covered' on the technical side.

[rodiponer]

I have no inside knowledge anywhere, but I think that if you get the Nevada State Health Department to approve it, that their approval will be good enough for any other organization that feels like they should have a say.

http://health.nv.gov/

If this is something new, that they have not approved before, I think it will be much easier for you and them and if you can frame this as a device that they have seen before, with small changes. Maybe this is a type of incinerator that partially fuels itself. Or maybe it is just a holding tank, like is used to pump out porta-potties, but with a gas venting mechanism...

[unjonharley]

I assume your project is in a cantainer.. So why would you need a permitt?.. All waste must be remove from the playa no matter how you render it down.. A lot of gray water is rendered to a damp mud of skin scale, scabs, cum and snot.. That is then rolled up in a plastic tarp for removal from the playa..

[Bob]

Alternative waste disposal requires permits just about anywhere in the civilized world, and the local health department treats health issues at Burning Man pretty much the same as at carnivals, rodeos, ranches, homes, camping grounds, etc. If you can prove to an average health permit issuing officer and onsite inspectors that it presents no risk, and make the same clear to the Burning Man org, then what's the hassle? Nobody here's going to do your homework for you.

[Elliot]

Girl Mark, let me first add to Rodiponers statement, that there are Composting Toilets in commercial sale. May or may not be relevant.

Now, I shall answer your questions to the best of my (extremely limited) knowledge.

1: In four years on the Playa, and some use of this board for the similar time, I have not heard of any useful methane generation.

2: Rules I cannot address at all, except to discuss the fact that public showers and pools are generally not allowed in BRC. I believe I understand the reason for this prohibition.

One of the Great Advances of society is Indoor Plumbing. The ability to remove poop from the house before anyone else has a chance to come in contact with it, and then keep the poop away from people all the way to the municipal treatment facility, has pretty much eradicated several nasty diseases that used to decimate populations with alarming regularity.

From my occasional reading of newspapers, I gather that at least one harmful bug is still causing a bit of trouble, and I believe it is called E-Coli or some such. From what I understand, E-Coli and other nasty bugs are everywhere – maybe even in the very air that you and I breathe every day. But the concentrations are so small that the body’s defense mechanisms (the immune system and the white blood cells and all that Stuff) routinely fend off the stray troublemakers – as bar bouncers keep the occasional bum out of bars.

What happens in a situation such as the public shower and mud bath pictured above, is that the stray and harmless troublemakers get concentrated. Every one of us invariably carry around tiny particles of poop on the skin of our nether regions at all times. Each bather contributes a few of these microscopic particles, and it all collects in the mud. Eventually, a whole gang of nasties join forces and rush the bouncers, gaining access to the bar. Someone becomes very ill.

Even proponents of domestic gray-water use in private gardens point out that laundry water should be diverted to the sewer system whenever there are diapers being washed, or anyone in the household has a digestive ailment.

Girl Mark, this may be all old news to you, but it seemed like it needed typing out. Of course, it is only what this one old fart thinks he knows – which ain’t much, ‘tis true.

Now let’s all go to the front window and stick our butt out and light a fart for the delight of our neighbors. For laughter is also vital to human health.

[Fire_Moose]

A night light that runs on doo doo... what will they think of next?!

Alejandro Jodorowsky has had this thought. He figured that you could generate power from pooping down a 6ft + toilet. the poop would hit multiple wheel like things that spin and produce electricity.

[swampdog]

Elliot, your post reminds me of something I read somewhere that "all odor is particulate" which I take to mean that if you can smell poop it means that tiny poop particles are flying up your nose and tickling your scent sensors.

I suppose I could focus on the positive and think of all the little yummy bacony bits dancing right up my nose right now...

[Elliot]

A firefighter friend of mine told me something similar. This pertained to certain hazardous materials on fire. Their rule was that if you could smell it, you were being overexposed and needed to retreat immediately.

[unjonharley]

The people in the China country side have been cooking there meals with gas from poop for many many years.. The generators are made of stone..
The heat in the prosess of becoming gas leaves the waste clean enough to feed fish home ponds.. Clean the fish pond and put that poop back on the land.. Good rice makes good poop.. And around we go again..

[Elliot]

I read a book where some European travelers in China boiled all their drinking water, precicely because they knew the local customs, and knew that the local population could resist the local bacteria concentrations, but the foreigners could not.

[unjonharley]

[quote="Elliot"]
I read a book where some European travelers in China boiled all their drinking water, precicely because they knew the local customs, and knew that the local population could resist the local bacteria concentrations, but the foreigners could not.[/quot

True, Us white guys have kill more Am. native with a hand shake than a pistol..

[unjonharley]

screw

[Captain Goddammit]

we wouldn't really be trying to handle all of our waste, just a small portion of it, mostly as an educational or demonstration project, while producing a small amount of relatively low-pressure methane that would presumably fire a small fire sculpture at night.

OK look, I'm gonna cut the crap. As it were.
What The Fuck.
I'm not wanting to fling any poo at you, you're a Burner girl, probably cool as hell.
But really, do the neighboring camps need a fart-scented nightlight?
Can't you come up with a nicer, less shitty art project?
Is "educating" the population worth the risk of a turd-boiler explosion?
Grunt nuggets aren't the answer to the energy crisis.
Or are they? Maybe the day is coming... "Hello AAA, I've run out of gas. Can you send a truck with some coffee and granola bars?"
Maybe just forgo the "digester" and fart in a jar?
It's just... I mean... goddammit I go to Burning Man to marvel at cool art, party, play on my and other people's powered creations, and see lots of fire. Fire of the non-reconstituted-rump-roast kind.

[oneeyeddick]

Some of us come to the Playa to burn shit, some of us come to blow shit up.

The choice is yours.