Survival

Rabbi Dali Rick · Post by **Rabbi Dali Rick** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:07 am

No bacon is the perfect food...

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:22 pm

Cuba has no fertilizer import.. So there is a nationalized effort to compost.. This gives all there foods more value and taste much better than the crap the US eats..

Cuba has not been able to import cars.. So the parking lots have been turned into gardens.. Not only is this a good use of space but no truck are needed to bring the food to citys..

WE could realy screw that country up.. Just normalize relations with them..

1durphul · Post by **1durphul** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:25 am

Sail Man wrote: here in Detroit?!?

oh, yes. That makes sense now.

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:34 pm

Risky wrote:Sail Man - Consider kerosene for heat.

Risky, my experience with friends that had kerosene heaters were that it smelled bad. So, when I discovered the Mr Heater units that run off of propane I was geeked. I already have a pair of 20pd tanks and a pair of 30pd tanks, and the heater can also run on the small bottles I buy by the 4 pack at my local big box retailers.

However, yesterday when I was at Lowes, I was looking at their heaters and I saw that they were selling a product that you could add to the kerosene that either masked the smell, or made it smell something diff. Truthfully I didnt pick it up and read what it did exactly but it would appear that the industry is trying to improve on the smell issue. While it wont convince me to buy a kerosene heater as I'm already into propane and dont want to deal with yet another fuel type, the info may convince somebody just getting into an off the grid heat source to check out kerosene further.

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:40 pm

1durphul wrote:
Sail Man wrote: here in Detroit?!?
oh, yes. That makes sense now.

If the shit hits the fan in the D it's gonna be a real shit-storm. Not only the gang-bangers, but also in a city predom. black where 1 out of every 3 brothers isnt employed, I'm thinking there's a lot of pent up frustration towards us crackers that they feel, justifiably or not, has put them in the position they are in now, and it's gonna be clobberin time.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:19 pm

Sail Man, I have used those heaters extensively.
Remember that they require venting, always.

There is a vented radiant version made for RVs.
I think it would be possible to construct a vented version.
Hard to do without a fan.

The kerosene heaters need the best K-1 grade.
They require venting also.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:16 pm

Sail Man, the World has served US notice;
Your services are no longer needed.
The jib losses are permanent. The downward spiral will continue. People will become more desperate. Make sure that you're carrying some money in your wallet. I know a guy who went to a car show in L.A. A couple of guys demanded his money. He emptied his wallet. It was only $4. The beat him up because he didn't have enough. He eventually had to have brain surgery because of the injuries. Carry money.

People have been known to throw their money and run like hell in the opposite direction. It works.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:32 pm

can't sit still wrote:Sail Man, the World has served US notice;
Your services are no longer needed.
The jib losses are permanent. The downward spiral will continue. People will become more desperate. Make sure that you're carrying some money in your wallet. I know a guy who went to a car show in L.A. A couple of guys demanded his money. He emptied his wallet. It was only $4. The beat him up because he didn't have enough. He eventually had to have brain surgery because of the injuries. Carry money. People have been known to throw their money and run like hell in the opposite direction. It works.

Probably better than not having some, but many are shot after handing over hundreds of dollars.
I know someone who had to shoot the robbers after giving them $250.
More and more common to rob, then kill.
It's the standard refrain on the news here.
We had three robbers shot by store clerks in one day recently.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:41 pm

gyre, from your earlier descriptions, it sounds like your neighborhood is a "free-fire" zone that would petrify the rest of us. We have no basis for comparing your circumstance to our's.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:43 pm

gyre wrote:Sail Man, I have used those heaters extensively.
Remember that they require venting, always.

There is a vented radiant version made for RVs.
I think it would be possible to construct a vented version.
Hard to do without a fan.

The kerosene heaters need the best K-1 grade.
They require venting also.

propane heaters.

IIRC, there are propane heaters, that, don't require venting. But, they do require combustion air inlets to the room.
They also have low oxygen sensors, so, if the room O2 is depleted, they shut off before danger.

There is a difference.
and, even for venting, a fan is not necessary......it is common practice to use "gravity venting".............hot air convection.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... ps-sellers

http://www.nextag.com/vent-free-propane ... /shop-html

*edit for specificity*
*second edit to remove snark*

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:12 am

Most are marketed as not requiring venting.
It is simply a lie.

Even in perfect theoretical operation they deplete oxygen and replace it with dangerous gas, in theory without carbon monoxide, but that is only when all is perfect.
If you don't have adequate outdoors ventilation, as for any combustion source, they are very dangerous.
Death from oxygen depletion alone has happened.
With adequate ventilation, useful heat is only provided directly in the radiant path.

They are a scam to sell cheaper products.
They are very useful in unenclosed spaces or in emergencies.

Do not use them without a lot of ventilation.

Those are exactly the products I am talking about, vent free.
Generally it means they don't come with a vent.
It's up to you.

They are not safe to use in an enclosed space.
Ever.
You need a great deal of ventilation, however it is provided.
The only ones that might be safe without a chimney, but several windows wide open, ere the catalytics.

And the "oxygen sensor" comes on when you are already in danger.
The outgassing is certainly safer than a bad charcoal fire, but is not safe.
These are devices that will be tombstone engineered.
My Mr. Heater was recalled for a better "oxygen sensor" (actually a low heat sensor).
Guess why?

These catalytics are great...for open spaces, carports, etc and emergencies with a great deal of ventilation.
The non-catalytics are just a scam.

There are some with glass enclosures and venting that look identical, but are safe.

Even in perfect operation, oxygen depletion damages eyesight, then the brain.
We'll find out what the other gasses do long term in a few years,
When the catalyst fails, you have ???

Not sued and legislated out of production is not proven safe.
They are marketed in places where it is illegal to install them.
Treat them like an older open flame space heater.
Useful on occasion, but undesirable and inefficient when ventilated safely.

It is possible to use a traditional chimney approach, but the more effective the heat exchange is, the less heat there is to power the flow.
It is certainly possible to build a traditional chimney, but I wouldn't even try it without a sealed intake.

The RV heater I mentioned uses a sealed unit and needs no fan.
But it is carefully constructed for reliability and is not cheap.
It is the only non-fan unit I am aware of that is rated.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:46 am

can't sit still wrote:gyre, from your earlier descriptions, it sounds like your neighborhood is a "free-fire" zone that would petrify the rest of us. We have no basis for comparing your circumstance to our's.

At times it is.
Right now the crackhouse is shut down.
The thing is that violence goes where it wants, even the high rent districts.

My neighborhood is actually a destination area for people moving out of the roughest areas.
Trying to flee crime drives rents up everywhere.
It is a more violent city than most, over all.

But I think that the attitude of robbers is pretty much the same everywhere.
If it ever was safe to get robbed, it isn't now.
Even in the sixties, one of the original beatles was killed by head trauma from a robbery.

I do think the viciousness is getting worse.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:20 am

gyre wrote:Most are marketed ...........ad nauseum.........
d.

Well. I dis-agree

.........

*another edit to remove snark*
*second edit for clarity*

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:51 am

They market them as vent-free, then the tiny print tells you that they need the same ventilation as any flame.

They add a thermostat after people die and call it an "oxygen sensor".

What can I add?

They're great for what they were designed for- spot heating in large drafty warehouses, garages, any place open for one reason or another.
Aside from safety issues, they can't be efficient in a well sealed building.
I'd love to have a couple more of the catalytics right now.
Perfect in an open trailer.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:18 am

Sail Man wrote:
Risky wrote:Sail Man - Consider kerosene for heat.
Risky, my experience with friends that had kerosene heaters were that it smelled bad. So, when I discovered the Mr Heater units that run off of propane I was geeked. I already have a pair of 20pd tanks and a pair of 30pd tanks, and the heater can also run on the small bottles I buy by the 4 pack at my local big box retailers.

However, yesterday when I was at Lowes, I was looking at their heaters and I saw that they were selling a product that you could add to the kerosene that either masked the smell, or made it smell something diff. Truthfully I didnt pick it up and read what it did exactly but it would appear that the industry is trying to improve on the smell issue. While it wont convince me to buy a kerosene heater as I'm already into propane and dont want to deal with yet another fuel type, the info may convince
somebody just getting into an off the grid heat source to check out kerosene further.

There is no heat in class rooms in Japan.. When my kid was teaching there.. She would have to open all the widows between classes.. Then frezz until the room filled with kids.

I have two kerosene stoves for standby.. WE have oil first, Mr Heater to warm the bed and bath before use.. Then turned off.. The fire place is the old stand by to keep the center of the house warm.. I lived inn a fifth wheel for a couple of winters.. Modified a pellet stove for heat.. It work pretty good..

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:24 am

As far as living in the D town, WE should all pray for the Sail Man..

Father and brother lived there the last time it went off.. They were lucky to get out alive.. "history"

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:08 pm

Just as a point of interest, the swarm of quakes in the super-caldera in Yellowstone are reportedly moving closer to the surface.
http://www.moneyteachers.org/Yellowstone2.htm
Last time it blew, it tossed up 500 cubic miles of ash. A repeat of that would certainly end all speculation about global warming

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:31 pm

I was asked to post a link to the Aquaponics forum.
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/
It's pretty interesting. By using a combination of hydroponic gardening and fish farming, , you can cycle and recycle everything. The water tank is a heat reservoir for the greenhouse. The greenhouse waste can go to the fish. The fish poop can be used as fertilizer.
My friend has a 5,000 gal tank that uses rainwater and solar heat. Pretty cool system.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:35 pm

can't sit still wrote:I was asked to post a link to the Aquaponics forum.
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/
It's pretty interesting. By using a combination of hydroponic gardening and fish farming, , you can cycle and recycle everything. The water tank is a heat reservoir for the greenhouse. The greenhouse waste can go to the fish. The fish poop can be used as fertilizer.
My friend has a 5,000 gal tank that uses rainwater and solar heat. Pretty cool system.

The people of China have been doing this for years.. THe veggatation put in a stone bio digester.. Gas is use for cooking and digested product is fish food. and so on..

There is a large fish/coy pond on the property.. We use the cleaning for fertilizer. For veggition it go's into compost then fed to the worm bin then to wild worms for second run worm poop.. Some times the fish poop is to hot and can burn plants.. So lately we have put it into a black barrel with wood chip and leafy stuff.. Lay the barrel on it's side in the sun.. Give it a 180 roll twice a week.. 10 days it's all broke down/digested ready for the ground

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:43 pm

Oh, To feed the fish this year.. I'm getting a solor powered bug zapper.. Remove the catch pan and let the bugs fallin the water.. Saw that in Mother Earth 25 years ago..

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:00 pm

Harley, I have an alternative idea for a fence charger that could be used for a bug zapper [with appropriate capacitors] Too cool for words;

Yeah, the worm thing is a great idea.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:24 pm

Put some potatoe and onion in the hot box today.. Couple of week to tranplant.. The onions are for seed..

So what are you grass hoppers doing for yourselfs?

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:00 pm

This grasshopper is working his tail off and buying STUFF. I bought an IBC tank,,, 275 gallons and a couple more 55 gal plastic drums to make filters. I have an auction for a wood stove that ends in 30 minutes. I got some solid doors for free. I'm trying to line up some surplus plywood,,, from RE signs.

Here's some links for books that were recommended by readers.

In descending order of frequency, the 78 readers that responded to my latest survey recommended the following non-fiction books on preparedness, self-sufficiency, and practical skills:

The Encyclopedia of Country Living by Carla Emery (Far and away the most often-mentioned book. This book is an absolute "must" for every well-prepared family!)

The Foxfire Book series (in 11 volumes, but IMHO, the first five are the best)

Holy Bible

Where There Is No Dentist by Murray Dickson

"Rawles on Retreats and Relocation"

Making the Best of Basics: Family Preparedness Handbook by James Talmage Stevens

The "Rawles Gets You Ready" preparedness course

Crisis Preparedness Handbook: A Comprehensive Guide to Home Storage and Physical Survival by Jack A. Spigarelli

Gardening When It Counts: Growing Food in Hard Times by Steve Solomon

Tappan on Survival by Mel Tappan

Boston's Gun Bible by Boston T. Party

Seed to Seed: Seed Saving and Growing Techniques for Vegetable Gardeners by Suzanne Ashworth

Survival Guns by Mel Tappan

Boy Scouts Handbook: The First Edition, 1911 (Most readers recommend getting pre-1970 editions.)

All New Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew

When Technology Fails: A Manual for Self-Reliance, Sustainability, and Surviving the Long Emergency by Matthew Stein

Back to Basics: A Complete Guide to Traditional Skills, Third Edition by Abigail R. Gehring

Preparedness Now!: An Emergency Survival Guide (Expanded and Revised Edition) by Aton Edwards

Putting Food By by Janet Greene

First Aid (American Red Cross Handbook) Responding To Emergencies

Making the Best of Basics: Family Preparedness Handbook by James Talmage Stevens

Nuclear War Survival Skills by Cresson H. Kearney (Available for free download.)

Cookin' with Home Storage by Vicki Tate

SAS Survival Handbookby John "Lofty" Wiseman

Root Cellaring: Natural Cold Storage of Fruits & Vegetables by Mike Bubel

Outdoor Survival Skills by Larry Dean Olsen

Stocking Up: The Third Edition of America's Classic Preserving Guide by Carol Hupping

The American Boy's Handybook of Camp Lore and Woodcraft

Emergency Food Storage & Survival Handbook by Peggy Layton

98.6 Degrees: The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive by Cody Lundin

Seed to Seed: Seed Saving and Growing Techniques for Vegetable Gardeners by Suzanne Ashworth

Emergency: This Book Will Save Your Life by Neil Strauss

Five Acres and Independence: A Handbook for Small Farm Management by Maurice G. Kains

Essential Bushcraft by Ray Mears

The Survivor book series by Kurt Saxon. Many are out of print in hard copy, but they are all available on DVD. Here, I must issue a caveat lector ("reader beware"): Mr. Saxon has some very controversial views that I do not agree with. Among other things he is a eugenicist.

How to Stay Alive in the Woods by Bradford Angier

The New Organic Grower by Eliot Coleman

Tom Brown Jr.'s series of books, especially:

Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival

Tom Brown's Field Guide to Nature Observation and Tracking

Tom Brown's Guide to Wild Edible and Medicinal Plants (Field Guide)

Total Resistance by H. von Dach

Ditch Medicine: Advanced Field Procedures For Emergencies by Hugh Coffee

Living Well on Practically Nothing by Ed Romney

The Secure Home by Joel Skousen

Outdoor Survival Skills by Larry Dean Olsen

When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikesby Cody Lundin

The Last Hundred Yards: The NCO's Contribution to Warfareby John Poole.

Camping & Wilderness Survival: The Ultimate Outdoors Book by Paul Tawrell

Engineer Field Data (US Army FM 5-34) --Available online free of charge, with registration, but I recommend getting a hard copy. preferably with the heavy-duty plastic binding.

Great Livin' in Grubby Times by Don Paul

Just in Case by Kathy Harrison

Nuclear War Survival Skills by Cresson H. Kearney (Available for free download.)

How to Survive Anything, Anywhere: A Handbook of Survival Skills for Every Scenario and Environment by Chris McNab

Storey's Basic Country Skills: A Practical Guide to Self-Reliance by John & Martha Storey

Adventure Medical Kits A Comprehensive Guide to Wilderness & Travel Medicineby Eric A. Weiss, M.D.

Rodale's Ultimate Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening: The Indispensable Green Resource for Every Gardener

Special Operations Forces Medical Handbook (superceded the very out-of-date ST 31-91B)

Wilderness Medicine, 5th Edition by Paul S. Auerbach

Four-Season Harvest: Organic Vegetables from Your Home Garden All Year Longby Elliot Coleman

Back to Basics: A Complete Guide to Traditional Skills, Third Edition by Abigail R. Gehring

Government By Emergency by Dr. Gary North

The Weed Cookbook: Naturally Nutritious - Yours Free for the Taking! by Adrienne Crowhurst

The Modern Survival Retreat by Ragnar Benson

Last of the Mountain Men by Harold Peterson

Primitive Wilderness Living & Survival Skills: Naked into the Wilderness by John McPherson

LDS Preparedness Manual, edited by Christopher M. Parrett

The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of Oil, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century by James H. Kunstler

Principles of Personal Defense - Revised Edition by Jeff Cooper.

Survival Poaching by Ragnar Benson

The Winter Harvest Handbook: Year Round Vegetable Production Using Deep Organic Techniques and Unheated Greenhouses by Eliot Coleman

http://survivalblog.com/water-storage-filters/

I'm going to post lots more links. it's a lot easier than actually doing original compositions

Dan

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:35 am

For most of the garden it's "Square Foot Gardening".. I compost for this and the flower beds.. For larger plants I spread clippings and cutting out to rot as is.. This makes a good ground cover and water retainer.. This is a no till garden area.. Just open the ground for the transplant or seed.. For vine types (pumkin &) put down a 3x3 yard cloth with a hole in the center.. The keeps the weeds away from the young plants.. Gardening just dose not have to be that intense..

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:29 am

gyre wrote:Sail Man, I have used those heaters extensively.
Remember that they require venting, always.

There is a vented radiant version made for RVs.
I think it would be possible to construct a vented version.
Hard to do without a fan.

The kerosene heaters need the best K-1 grade.
They require venting also.

The Mr Heater I got, the 18,000btu Buddy heater: http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=41&id=116 can be used indoors and has a oxygen depletion sensor. Nothing in the manual stipulates that it needs ventilation, though it's safe to say that my mobile home isnt exactly air tight

I do have a battery powered CO monitor as well. The smaller units indicate they were for outdoors use only.

How has your experience been with them? I read alot of good things on a couple other forums and as I was already heavy into propane it made sense for me to stick with it.

Token · Post by **Token** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:01 pm

Lettuce Peppers and Tomatoes:

Greens, onion, peas, cabbage n radish:

Salad n artichoke:

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:07 pm

Gyre, posted the last after reading your first caution. And then, ran across your longer post.

I am of the opinion that any auxiliary heating device in a home, whether it be gas powered or wood powered can be inherently dangerous under certain circumstances. Most forms of combustion use oxygen to burn, hence depleting it is a possibility. Ignition is another possibility. It's always been my practice to crack a window whenever using an auxiliary heating device. Yes, that does cut down on effectiveness, but safety is also a concern.

You did spark my curiosity about a more effective O2 monitoring device, here is one that I found. Opinions? http://www.northernsafety.com/Products/ ... html?PFM=S

If you can point me towards a propane heater that is safer, please do so. I am not interested in something currently that would require me to cut a hole in my house at the present, but I have been considering adding a sm wood burning stove down the line.

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:10 pm

CSS, that's your blog?!?

I linked to it yesterday from the Survivalist Forum while researching EMP's and Faraday Cages.

It looks like it will occupy my mind for some time. Looks like a wealth of info there.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:29 pm

Survivalist Forum?

Hell, try this little gem of a web site out.

http://www.primitiveways.com/

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:46 pm

Woo Hoo, thanks Iso! I've been looking for classes/retreats that teach these skills here in Michigan but they are a bit pricey for me right now. But a little light reading never hurts and can only help.

Survival

Morbund...