Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:21 am

This might be handy;
http://www.usedbodyarmor.com/

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:31 am

just don't bring a "stun gun" to a gun fight...........

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:16 pm

We hope whips and floggers are okay! We won't hit anybody with 'em,,,, too hard.

geospyder · Post by **geospyder** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:34 pm

Range day yesterday. For some reason I just couldn't miss. Weak hand, strong hand, both hands. Those paper people just didn't stand a chance. Talking of stun guns, must have been qualification the other day - lots of cartridges and darts along with the normal brass at the range.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:35 pm

Trishntek wrote:We hope whips and floogers are okay!

any idea where are you going to be camped at this year? I'll stop by for one!

After having our taxes done, we went to the gun show in Carson City this morning. Saw a S&W .38 special+P for $450. I belive the msrp is over $600. For some reason I think it was a 642. I did'nt notice if it had a built in lasergrip. Looked like the perfect CCW. Small, light weight. I'm still drooling over it.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:57 pm

for me, revolvers are tougher to conceal. mine is a Walther PPK/s .380

the auto's are much flatter, and, generally hold more ammo.
Of course, the .38 has a lot more punch............

just my 2 cents.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:18 pm

The 38 +P is more powerful, but only slightly.
The step up to 9mm is much more dramatic.

The only revolvers that I've seen that come close to the small keltec 380 are the titanium and boron alloy versions, very costly and still bulkier.
Impossible to justify for a smaller caliber, but wouldn't mind having one in a larger size.

At least consider one of these.
With the laser, it will fit in a jeans back pocket and vanish.
They fit in some watch pockets and shirt pockets.
Quick to reload too.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:55 pm

gyre wrote:The 38 +P is more powerful, but only slightly.
The step up to 9mm is much more dramatic.

I don't follow what you're saying here...........

can you clarify, please?

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:59 pm

According to wikipedia, the .380 is "slightly" less powerful than a "standard-pressure" .38 special.
According to American Rifleman, the .380 is not the handgun of choice for those looking for trouble but the light and handy handgun for those looking to avoid it.
Comparisons of the calibers can be found at www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38specialor380acp.htm

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:26 pm

yeah all true. And, good points.

part of what I lean towards, is an old adage:

"a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44"

I have a couple of other handguns, so, do have choices, as far as "power" is concerned..........
but, for comfort, ease of carry and concealment, more rounds, faster re-load, I still go with the .380.
But, that's just me.

I'm not sure my Walther has ever jammed........I don't remember it jamming, anyway.
I "ramped and polished" it, so, I'm sure that helps.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

I've heard that "ramp and polish" term before
Not to sound totaly ignorant but whats that mean?
My Ruger MarkIII Standard .22lr jams CCI hollow points when the catridge is entering the chamber
I know each gun will have its favorite brand of ammo so it might be trial and error
I've had the gun since mid November so its still new

Good adage there

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:19 pm

"ramp and polish" is taking a small grinder, like a dremmel, and, matching the feed ramp to the throat of the chamber. Some even relieve the upper side of the chamber ever so slightly. all work there needs to be polished, too, along with the rest of the feed route.
also, matching the feed lip on the clip, to the feed ramp. Usually done by slightly bending the lip on the clip until it matches.

yeah, my Ruger has some ammo it likes better than others.
Most any semi auto pistol will have that. But, the above greatly reduces this. At least, in my experience.

sometimes, you can tell what's needed by careful examination of the stuck cartridge.......it the ramp angle is to high, it'll shave a little lead off the top of the bullet. That can be taken care of by matching the ramp. if the ramp does match, relieving the outer edge of the chamber, on top, will help.

same true for to low a feed angle.

"throating" can also help. This is where you relieve all the way around the opening "throat" of the chamber. You must be careful not to take to much and compromise the seating and hold of the rim, if, it's a rimmed case your shooting.

** edit for this note: I'm not a gunsmith, so, take this advise for what it's worth. These procedures have worked for me, and, the terms I use are what was told me**

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:26 pm

But ygmir, you and gyre both have good points about pistols vs revolvers:
easier to load, flatter, sometimes lighter, more rounds, as a rule,
I mean sitting on a Ruger LCR or Charter Arm Off Duty in your back pocket must have to be like sitting on a couple of golf balls or an ultra thick wallet

It boils down to preference

Like I posted somewhere else, I think "Violence on the Playa" thread, I keep the 22 loaded with CCI mini mags along with a 20ga shotgun with #2 buck shot and a full choke tube in the barrel.
Buckshot vs game loads vs rifle slugs vs different sizes of buckshot are all debatable topics regarding "home prtection," if one uses a shotgun

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:29 pm

I like shoulder holsters...........but yeah, back pocket is uncomfortable.
Gyre is a very smart fellow, and, does a ton of research.

and, you're right, the shotgun debate, is, well, just that........everyone has a preference...........do what makes sense to you.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:30 pm

Thanks for that info there
I'm gonna take the trial and error approach for now and written notes as to what and what does'nt jam, since the gun is still new

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:04 pm

Thecatman wrote:
Trishntek wrote:We hope whips and floogers are okay!
any idea where are you going to be camped at this year? I'll stop by for one!

After having our taxes done, we went to the gun show in Carson City this morning. Saw a S&W .38 special+P for $450. I belive the msrp is over $600. For some reason I think it was a 642. I did'nt notice if it had a built in lasergrip. Looked like the perfect CCW. Small, light weight. I'm still drooling over it.

We plan to be somewhere along the 7:30 avenue, possibly in sin city village. Will know for sure in about a month.

That's a great price for the S&W. My Taurus was $550. But for everyday handiness while on the road, in brief case and easily worn with belt clip holster I like my Baretta .32 auto. It's not nearly as accurate as the .38 outside 30 feet. But then on the road, I'm not exactly planning to use it any further than that. But for tiny in a pocket or with the holster it's hard to beat. Plus it holds 8 with one in the chamber. The Taurus only holds 5 rounds.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:51 pm

I might have to be corrected on that msrp:
It's more like $700+.. Smith & Wesson you're payin for the name there. But $450 for a S&W is good.
I feel Taurus plays second fiddle to S&W as far as quality goes meaning in my book they're good guns. A guy I work with has The Judge.

I did find some aftermarket laser grips for my Ruger for $239, same as I owe the IRS, Looks pretty straight foward to swap them out. My ticket for this year is gonna have to come before laser grips.

Somewhere along 7:30? thats gonna be a couple miles bike ride

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:20 pm

Which model smith and wesson exactly?

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:33 am

Exactly?

I'm not sure, I'm guessing a 642 model. Like I stated earlier, I did'nt
take notice of factory laser grips like Crimmson Traser etc.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:26 pm

Most guns have a break-in period.
Keltec recommends 200 rounds fired, though this is probably overly cautious.
After break in, I polished all working parts in the gun to reduce friction, including the ramp.
Care must be taken not to polish through the hardened surfaces.
When reshaping an area, hardening is usually necessary.

As Ygmir says, the magazine is a crucial part of a gun, not an afterthought.
Keltec spends the money on the internals, not the cosmetics, and they only use Mecgar magazines.
That's all I use as spares too.
Not a place to skimp.

Weak rounds can cause automatics to fail to cycle, as will limp wristing.
This is especially an issue with very lightweight guns.
Some rounds just don't work well in some guns.
The powerball is recommended for problem loading, seemingly idiot proof.

Worth mentioning that the only reason these light autos weigh as much as they do, is the need for weight on the slide, so it will function.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:36 pm

Thecatman wrote: I'm not sure, I'm guessing a 642 model. Like I stated earlier, I did'nt
take notice of factory laser grips like Crimmson Traser etc.

If you want a laser, this is something to take into consideration with your choice.
I like the Armalaser better, and it's cheaper.
But they don't have a specific touch unit for the revolvers, though they do have a universal unit now that might work.

http://www.armalaser.com/Products-STING ... LASER.html

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:56 pm

Some power specs.
Take note that most revolvers have short barrels which will reduce power.
Some specs list barrel and testing approaches.
These are Corbon JHP, with some exceptions.

25-------112 FLBS-----35 GR----2" barrel
32-------147------------60--------2.5"
380------220-----------90---------2.5"
380------188-----------70---------3"-----Powerball
380------196-----------80---------2.5"-DPX
9x18----242------------70--------3.75" --Powerball
38sp+P -269------------110-------1.875"
38sp+P -251------------125-------1.875"
38sp+P -294------------100-------1.875" --Powerball
9MM----466------------115--------4"
9MM----399------------115--------4" DPX
9MM Powerball 483 FLBs ---100GR ---4"

357Mag----549--------110--------4"
40---------526--------135--------4"
357Sig-----575--------115--------4"
10MM------588--------135--------4.6"
45+P------543flbs----185gr------5" barrel

223--------1099-------55gr-------16" barrel
7.62x39----1600-------125gr------18.5"
308--------2668-------125gr------24" barrel

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:00 pm

There was a 2nd amendment rally in Tenn at the capitol building with supporters wearing arms.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/27/gu ... s-capitol/
They plan to kick things up a notch.
"The event is part of a national, grass-roots campaign culminating with a planned rally next month in Washington." Just imagine, thousands of armed people walking around D.C. I'm not quite sure how that would play out

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:56 pm

Hard to find specs on the lighter revolvers, but the S & W seems to run around 15-16 ounces.
The titanium version appears to be around 11 ounces.

The Beretta 32 weighs 14.5 ounces, or about the same as the keltec 9mm.
The Beretta 22 and 25 come in at 11.5-11.8 ounces.

The keltec 380 is 8 ounces.
There is a reason Ruger gave up and just copied it.

I don't consider the 380 to be an adequate self defense round.
I think that starts at 9mm.
But the keltec 380 can and will be carried when larger weapons are impractical.
And it's small enough to be carried for backup.

When it's 100 degrees and 100% humidity, you can still conceal these when you're busy working on something.
My only regret is not making it my first gun.
Available with the armalaser too.

You have to actually handle one.
It really has no competition at all.
It is as small as they can be made.
When they went to the 380, they had to drop the slide stop to keep from making it larger.
Be aware of this.

The slogan should be small enough to actually carry all the time.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:22 pm

The aftermarket laser I found for my MarkIII is a Crimson Trace
Armalaser shows a KelTec P3AT in its ads
I whole-heartedly agreee with ygmirs' adage though and the same
holds true with a .380. I'd rather hit an intruder or attacker with
a .380 than miss with a .44
Several months ago I was thinking of a Ruger LCP...similar to the KelTec P3AT
what turned me off about the .380 was avalibility of ammo.
.38 special ammo seem easier to come by than 380s

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:28 pm

I have'nt purchased any lasergrips for my Ruger yet.
As I stated, I owe Uncle Sam $239 as well, the same price for the grips, plus I need $3000 for transmission repairs to my Jetta, plus my ticket for this years event all come first

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:09 pm

Just finnshed watching the 10 minute nutinfancy video review of the P3AT
Three main problems were
1)Sights suck...but for a CCW used in defense most shots will be less than 7yds
2)Magazine release button is in a bad spot....right where your thumb should be
3)Trigger pull takes some getting used to
That was something I noticed in the pictures...a long trigger pull
I might seriously consider one...a KelTec or Ruger LCP
Still need to know about ammo availabilty though

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:51 pm

yeah, I'd say, in a worst case situation, .38 will be easier to find than .380.

but, if you're just talking stores, well, buy a bunch at a time......

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:44 am

The ammo issue is due to the huge popularity of the size, as everyone has realized a 380 doesn't have to weigh 24 ozs, and other manufacturers have rushed to copy the keltec.
The 380 (9x17) is made on the same equipment as the 9mm (9x19), also wildly popular.
As this calibre becomes more popular, it will be some time before this issue eases.
I am starting to see practice ammo available again though, which is the more difficult issue.
I bought a hundred rounds on craigslist recently, originally sourced from walmart.
To get self defense rounds, order direct from corbon and you will be back ordered.
The next run made will fill your order.

The equipment for the keltec has been running non-stop since it went into production.
They have been 10,000 orders behind since it came out, so they actually limit orders.

The P11 9mm has a long pull, which is very difficult to get used to, but I am told is needed to keep the size and weight down.
The P3AT and PF9 have a half cock system and I find the 380 no issue at all.
It is extremely light and small, so a good grip is essential with high power rounds.
The finger extension is a good idea.

The magazine release appears to be in an awkward location, but I am unable to push it while gripping the gun.
I must shift my grip to push it.
It must be pushed completely to activate.
Seems like genius design to me.
It may fit you differently.

http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GP3AT
http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GP3ATHC

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:10 pm

gyre wrote:To get defense rounds, order direct from corbon and you will be back ordered.

Yeah the same is true for Able Ammo. .38s are avalible but all .380s are out of stock.
I'm off tommorow (Tuesday) for furlough and doctor apointment so I might spend some time at Carson Armory, the gun shop in Mound House where I got my Ruger. Look at their selection of hand guns and ammo, pick their brain a little.