The Health Care Bill

[Dr. Pyro]

It's a good day in America. About time the stupid Democrats got their collective asses kicked. How can you people support these idiots? Oh yeah, most of you don't pay taxes and are parasites on those of us who actually pay taxes. "Health Care", RIP.

[can't sit still]

I went to dozens of McDonalds in Europe. I didn't actually eat there but, the restrooms were a godsend. I was traveling on a Top Deck Camping bus without a restroom. When I lived in Madrid, the upstairs dining room at mcD was a very convenient study hall for myself and my Madrilena study partner. 2 batidas and we were good for hours.

[unjonharley]

The health Care Industry is way ahead of the Gov. My health care has been so limited in the past six months there nothing left.. At one time I at least had " Take two asprin and call in the morning".. Now it's " Give em fifty buck for an asprin and call Neptune".. I'm voting for Palin.. At least she puts on a silly ass show.. That way I can laugh myself to death..

[can't sit still]

Harley, that's a great attitude We'll be laughing with you.
As an aside, the bill reportedly penalizes married couples. Reportedly, 80% of single mothers voted for obama so, the bill seeks to increase this demographic.

[thisisthatwhichis]

* I think I just heard a bullet whizzing by as I dodged*

[can't sit still]

I got this in mail.;
"Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada has placed in his massive amendment to the Senate version of the bill modifying the American Health Care System a provision designed to prevent any future Congress from repealing the service cutting powers of the new Independent Medicare Advisory Board to reduce per patient medical spending.

Beginning on page 1,000 of the measure, Section 3403 reads in part: ". it shall not be in order in the Senate or the House of Representatives to consider any bill, resolution, amendment or conference report that would repeal or otherwise change this subsection."

In other words, when President Obama signs this measure into law, no future Senate or House will be able to change a single word of Section 3403, regardless whether future Americans or a majority of their representatives in Congress wish to or not."

[littleflower]

can they really do that?

[mdmf007]

can they really do that?

Yes, but they can simply pass another bill repealing, or changing this one. Nothing is permanent when it comes to US law - Even amendments to our constitution can be changed with enough votes.

[can't sit still]

I posted that snipet to show that GOV is REALLY serious about cutting back on Medi-care and end-of-life spending. The unfunded liabilities are about $ 101 trillion. Medicare is a big part of that. GOV is going to have to cut Medi-care to NOTHING !!!!!
After all, $ 70 trillion of the unfunded liabilities are for GOV pensions. What's more important to GOV;
GOV pensions or a pacemaker for aunt Sally?

[can't sit still]

Well, if health care insurance is mandatory, we'll all have to line up and get our mandatory health-care I.D. card. I just can't hardly wait to have my national bio-metric I.D. card.
Forced insurance will divert hundreds of $ billions in premiums to those newly-poor folks on Wall Street. They're doing GOD'S work.
I'm also glad to hear that 16,000 new IRS agents will have work collecting $ 400 billion. I read that there will be 15 new tax programs. You can imagine how happy that makes me too.

Social Security holds $ 7.3 trillion in non-negotiable treasury bonds. Interestingly enough, these bonds are NOT counted as a liability by the treasury. How could that be
Isn't that strange. Recently SS has started redeeming some of these notes. I wonder how GOV is going to come up with the missing $ 40 trillion to fund SS and Medicare?

Bernanke said that GOV has to cut out entitlement programs. I'm not real clear as to how SS can be called an entitlement when the retirees were investors for so many years of their lives.
Well, we already have a prescription-drug plan that has been called a budget-buster. Strange that the bill precludes GOV from asking for competitive bids for drugs,,,, it's full-price only.
A suspicious person might think that Big-Pharma lobbyists had something to do with writing the health-care and drug bills.
McCain has introduced a bill that would severely restrict access to vitamins. Not sure why, CODEX alimentarus is coming our way. It goes a long way towards eliminating vitamins.
Vitamins are a BOZO- no no. We can't have a bunch of OLD people collecting money and NOT producing for the corporatocracy. We also can't have a bunch of doctors without sick patients who need their wallets lightened.

OK, so a VAT tax is off on the horizon. Seems to be the same for a carbon tax. A health tax seems to be cooked into the cake. State and regional taxes and fees are going way up.
It has been very-well documented that; for every $ 1 rise in taxes, the economy diminishes by $ 3.

I'm having difficulty seeing how all these additional taxes are going to be funded by a crashing economy.
Our former [recent] head of the U.S. General Accounting Office, David Walker said that our debt was 80% of the GDP. He also said that it would be 100 % in 2 years.
My, my, my, isn't this all very exciting. Now, we have health care.

[Trishntek]

After scanning through the "hate capitalism" posts and the ones fearful of th Gubmint taking over our lives, the real reasons for a "single payer"(oxymoron since we all pay) system.

1. All those great pensions and health care contracts to labor have gone bankrupt. The only way big labor can keep their promises is by passing the burden onto the rest of us. The corporations like it because it gets them off the hook with big labor.

2. Capitalism and free market principles made the U.S.A. the most successful, productive and generous society in the world. It gave the common man control and required individuals to be self-reliant. This arrangement creates the need for a small gubmint where the elected officials have to actually earn a living doing something other than legislating all the time. Power and control are as diverse as the individuals enjoying it. Nowadays, we have "career politicians",,,, a term foreign to the tongue of our founders.

Under the guise of "Social Justice", those who have succeeded in their pursuit of happiness are increasingly held responsible for those who failed. First it is for the elderly and handicapped, the orphan and frail. But it's not fair enough. If you give it to those who cannot help themselves, then why not give it to those who will not help themselves.

It requires more regulations and laws and oversight,,,, bigger Gubmint. More centralized control,,,,, fewer choices,,,, more equal for all. Eventually the society becomes increasingly dependent on the Gubmint and less self reliant,,,, less independent.

3. The Declaration of Independence states that, ",,,we are endowed by our Creator with Certain Unalienable Rights." Well now for the first time in U.S. history, an elected body has legislated a "right". The Gubmint does not endow us with anything but tax burdens and regulations. The Gubmint does not produce anything. EVERYTHING a gubmint provides must first be taken from someone else. Yesterday, the Gubmint of the United States took the place of our Creator. It has been coming for quite some time.

First He was removed from schools. Then He was removed from public discussion. Now He has been replaced with Gubmint acting as the prophet for Mother Earth. A new religion is born and we all get to rejoice together! The individual success does not matter anymore,,, it is the collective's mediocrity which is essential to be manipulated into submission. For the Earth's sake.

4. For power and control to be increasingly centralized by a minority, there must be a leveling of the "playing field" to the majority. Spreading the wealth actually defeats any wealth. Our society was too wealthy in the eyes of our Gubmint. There must be a decrease in the pursuit. There must be a decrease in expectation. There must be a decrease in success.

The equal housing legislation of 1998 set in motion our current financial "crisis". The bankers were forced into making bad loans by this legislation. I never recall a banker offering me a loan for nothing down or anything short of a stellar credit history before 1998. All the standards were lowered. The need for individual success was nullified. Reward for effort and penalty for failure ceased to be an issue.

A battle was lost yesterday. The war for liberty continues. The "unintended" consequences of this legislation will not be realized before all those elected who put this piece of shit in place are dead and gone. So why would they do it? Why would they risk their own careers to support something so unAmerican?

5. You can bet their own progeny are secure. The common man can say "goodbye" to being a representative of his community on a national level. The namesakes of those in this Gubmint have been assured their own insulation from the mediocre lives the rest of us will be forced to enjoy. The king's court is in play,,,, prepare to prone yourself before his heinous.

[unjonharley]

I do hope Mr Obama and the rest of his Dem party enjoy basking in there own sunshine FOR THERE ONE TERM IN OFFICE.

I for one am able to rise a pen and vote.. Fool me once, your the fool..Fool me twice, I'm the fool.. Fool not do I plan to be....

[AntiM]

So what of it's expensive, I'll be happy to have my tax dollars pay for decent health care for those who do not have it.

[can't sit still]

Somehow, i doubt that the poor will EVER get health care. This is from Dick Eastman talking about for-profit hospitals. He claims that the restructuring will cut way back on care to preserve profits.

"Wall Street Health Care
Neither "liberals" nor "collectivists" nor "big pharma" nor "soak the rich" but Wall Street Oragnaized Crime was behind 2010 "Health Care Act." None of the mouthpieces you listened to in the mass media told you that truth.



"Permission slip" medical care is care where every dollar spent on people comes from cutting into Wall Street Invested insurance premiums -- with Wall Street controlling the decision whether a sick citizen or international speculation gets each "medical dollar" at any given moment.

You were also told that under the old system black and brown folk get no medical care because of the greedy white doctors and hospital administrators who hate our nation's first black president. Yet in America traditional hospitals never turn away the sick. That the emergency rooms are full of black and brown people and white people, regardless of ability to pay. While it is true that the new "for profit" corporation hospitals in each town do turn people away to protect the bottom line, it is also a fact that traditional hospitals do not. (How can one say that Emergency Rooms are filled with "frequent flyers" while saying at the same time that the poor are turned away? Answer me that!) Under the 2010 Health Act there will no longer be traditional hospitals as we have known them. All hospitals, under the new economic constraints imposed by 2010 Health Care Act, will now operate like the notoriously cheapskate "for profit" hospitals. The Health Care Act are cutting down traditional competitors to universalize the less-preferred "tight-wad"service standards of the for-profit hospital services corporations. Federal bureaucracy will now force the traditionals to operate like the For-Profits -- too cut costs to make sure the insurance premium payments stay in Wall Street hands.

Doctors have a code -- to take care of the sick. The politicans, in office because Wall Street put them there, have told you that they are the compassionate ones who are protecting you from the "greed" of rich doctors who hate the poor. But let me ask you this -- has there every been a con job where the con-men have not pretended to be doing you a special favor? "

[AntiM]

So we shouldn't even try?

[Ranger Genius]

As a rule, if someone puts quotation marks around more than three phrases in a paragraph (exclusive of direct quotes) you can guess that he is entirely full of shit.

Just sayin'.

[Trishntek]

So what of it's expensive, I'll be happy to have my tax dollars pay for decent health care for those who do not have it.

You mean just like our gas taxes pay for road repairs? Or our Social Security taxes actually are saved in the SS system?
e
The taxes paid for this new system will be spent long before anyone receives health care from its proposed benefits.

This is basic economics 101. A government cannot provide anything. A government must first take from someone before giving to someone. In order for a government to do a good thing, it MUST do a bad thing. Does the end justify the means? Because in the course of doing these good and bad things, government takes its cut from both the means and the end. Everyone loses except of course bureaucracy.

[dr.placebo]

HCR is not socialism, and it is not tyranny. It's just another flawed law. Yet for all its flaws it seeks to address some of the rampant problems in the current health business (a more accurate term than "health care").

I do wish that some of those who scream about government interference in their lives would take a good look at what corporations get away with. Many of those onerous governmental edicts would not be necessary if corporations and rich white guys would stop polluting, discriminating, creating unsafe conditions at work and at home.

You don't like the FDA? Try an unregulated drug market, circa 1895. Poisons posing as drugs.

You don't like the EPA? Well, without it you get burning rivers and toxic air.

We have one of the most expensive, least effective, health care systems in the first world. There is a lot that is wrong with HCR, but leaving things as they were would be worse.

[Trishntek]

We have one of the most expensive, least effective, health care systems in the first world

Least effective? I take exception to the statistics which pose that case. How many other countries send their 18-30 year olds to fight wars on foreign soil? Does that not affect the life expectancy statistics?

How many other countries consider a 22 week old infant a viable life worth saving and counting as a live birth? How many other countries count any birth as live unless that infant survives a day or two? Our country considers a live birth anyone who breathes air,,, even for a few minutes. Does that not affect the life expectancy statistics?

How many other countries include accidental death in their life expectancy statistics? Statistics are like a bikini. What you see is interesting, but what you do not see is vital.[/quote]

[Ranger Genius]

So what of it's expensive, I'll be happy to have my tax dollars pay for decent health care for those who do not have it.

You mean just like our gas taxes pay for road repairs? Or our Social Security taxes actually are saved in the SS system?
e
The taxes paid for this new system will be spent long before anyone receives health care from its proposed benefits.

This is basic economics 101. A government cannot provide anything. A government must first take from someone before giving to someone. In order for a government to do a good thing, it MUST do a bad thing. Does the end justify the means? Because in the course of doing these good and bad things, government takes its cut from both the means and the end. Everyone loses except of course bureaucracy.

How does this differ from the way the current insurance system works, apart from the fact that insurance companies have outright evil at the helm? It's a system of pooled risk, but forcing a little more of the risk on those who can more afford it, and forcing some of the larger drains on the system to put a little bit back in.

[Trishntek]

One major difference,,,,

Insurance companies have billions of dollars in assets!

The U.S. Government has Trillions of dollars in liabilities!

[Kinetik V]

People bitched when they tried to ban slavery.
People bitched when they tried to desegregate the schools.
People bitched when they passed Social Security.
And now people are bitching again about health care.

For all your bitching one thing is clear. At least someone got their ass up there and quit bitching long enough to actually get something done. Is it perfect? Hell no. But it's a change. I want to hear people speak up and say the current system is perfect. It sure as hell isn't. So at least we've taken one step towards changing the way America handles it's health care business. Change is a bitch, and in a country as large as America you sure as heck can't please everyone....the fact that this got passed at all literally has me thinking divine providence was at work here...as it's nothing short of a miracle it got done.

So in short, if you don't like it, vote, run for office yourself, or take other steps to be a part of the process, otherwise you'll be like all those others who bitched until the world passed their asses by.

( I do think the tax on tanning is absolute bullshit, and I'm looking forward to seeing restaurant menus with calorie info, the expanded IRS scares me but seeing a safety net for those at the bottom of the financial ladder is a good thing. And always remember if you don't like it, litigate the fuck out of it until you get it right, or get it so fucked up that it has to be done over!)

[ygmir]

HCR is not socialism, and it is not tyranny. It's just another flawed law. Yet for all its flaws it seeks to address some of the rampant problems in the current health business (a more accurate term than "health care").

I do wish that some of those who scream about government interference in their lives would take a good look at what corporations get away with. Many of those onerous governmental edicts would not be necessary if corporations and rich white guys would stop polluting, discriminating, creating unsafe conditions at work and at home.

You don't like the FDA? Try an unregulated drug market, circa 1895. Poisons posing as drugs.

You don't like the EPA? Well, without it you get burning rivers and toxic air.

We have one of the most expensive, least effective, health care systems in the first world. There is a lot that is wrong with HCR, but leaving things as they were would be worse.

my first instinctive response to the above (in red) statement, is, "Fuck you Doc"........I've not decided, though, if that's my last.........

On another note:
do I take your first paragraph, to mean, doing the wrong thing, is better than doing nothing?
and, that as long as your "intent" is "good", the outcome doesn't really matter?

I do agree with you on FDA and EPA.......perhaps at times they are overzealous, but, I'd say they do serve a good purpose.

I'm not so sure we have the least effective healthcare system....although, I do know it breaks down a lot, but, when it works, it works best, IMHO.

[Trishntek]

Yes, AntiM we should do something. But destroying the entire system for the sake of 10% of the population is not sane.

For the money, leave we who contribute to society alone, take the 10% and deal with them as needed. It is their responsibility to apply for the programs already available. If they do not want to pay for insurance, but can afford it and have the opportunity to buy it and choose negatively, they should be allowed life saving services on the public dole. They must be self-reliant for their own well being.

The programs are there. The examples politicians used in the final push for this legislation either got the care needed or failed to apply for the services available. That boy standing beside his heinous today? His mother did not utilize what was available to her according to her own mother.

We are currently going through a healthcare crisis of our own. We are under insured for the specific illness and its treatment. Through various charitable organizations and state programs already in existence, Trish is getting the care necessary.

What I'm saying is, the system needs tweaking for sure. But absolutely not overhauled.

[can't sit still]

A couple notes on SS;
“the amount the [Social Security] system has promised beyond what it can actually pay now totals $17.5 trillion. Yes, that’s trillion with a T.â€

[Elderberry]

HCR is not socialism, and it is not tyranny. It's just another flawed law. Yet for all its flaws it seeks to address some of the rampant problems in the current health business (a more accurate term than "health care").

I do wish that some of those who scream about government interference in their lives would take a good look at what corporations get away with. Many of those onerous governmental edicts would not be necessary if corporations and rich white guys would stop polluting, discriminating, creating unsafe conditions at work and at home.

You don't like the FDA? Try an unregulated drug market, circa 1895. Poisons posing as drugs.

You don't like the EPA? Well, without it you get burning rivers and toxic air.

We have one of the most expensive, least effective, health care systems in the first world. There is a lot that is wrong with HCR, but leaving things as they were would be worse.

As usual, a voice of reason hidden in the forest.

JK

[Ranger Genius]

One major difference,,,,

Insurance companies have billions of dollars in assets!

The U.S. Government has Trillions of dollars in liabilities!

And how did they accumulate those assets?

One word: parasitically.

[Trishntek]

Hmmmmmm let me think,,,, insurance companies exist because people choose to do business with them. They offer a product and collect the price for that product. We as individuals buy and sign that contract of our own free will. They invest and divest according to those contracts. Sure there are exceptions, deviations and misrepresentations. That can happen while dealing with any business which we patronize.

The gubmint takes whether you want to donate or not. The gubmint spends money faster than it creates, borrows and steals it. The gubmint tells us, "this bill sets aside funds for,,," you fill in the blank. The gubmint makes more money off a gallon of gas than the oil companies. But who is the "parasite"?

The gubmint get 10% of my phone, gas, electricity, garbage, internet and business. None of these are provided by the gubmint. The gubmint does not do anything to provide these services. Yet who is the parasite?

This health care plan provides for an increase of 16,000 IRS personnel. What does that have to do with health care? Within this law is the takeover of the student loan program by the gubmint. How many ways can they manipulate who teaches what to whom with that kind of influence? Yet those nasty financial institutions are considered the parasite. With that kind of power to enforce this monstrous law, the IRS will indeed reign supreme over the minions. I guess maybe we are the parasites that require control.

[magicmarty]

I'm in the business end of the current healthcare system. It is two times the cost per capita of most of the industraiized nations in the world, and our outcomes in most areas rank about 10th to 19th in the world.

I am alive because of Medicare, a government run insurance program. Unlike the government subsidized private Medicare Advantage, I have no fear of my coverage being terminated.

I'm with AntiM, Kinetic, Doc Placebo, Ranger and Kisha in saying it is about time that we enacted Health insurance reform. I really don't believe that corporations are all that venal, but the tax cuts and deregulation of the past 10 or 15 years, did not prevent the huge unemployment and recession that we have been experiencing for the past 18 months or so. When the Securities Acts of 1933 and 1934 were enacted, there was the same hue and cry of the government trying to control our lives. And yet, the result was that we had one of the strongest capital markets in the world that benefited not only our country as a whole, but also the Wall Streeters that complained most vociferously about them.

Taxes are the price of a civilized society. Insurance needs healthy young folks who are not a current burden in order to function. Anthem Blue Cross said as much in defense of their 39% premium increase just a few weeks ago. Specifically, they said that they had to raise rates because too many healthy folks were dropping out due to economic conditions.

Give it a chance. It is not perfect, but the status quo is truly a train wreck. It is the right thing to do

[Trishntek]

Well I also am in the business. And I'll tell you what, the gubmint is more concerned about the contents of my urine than the quality of my effort.

Safety inspectors are more concerned about my use of door stops than whether I get into the facility efficiently.

Whether I have liability insurance or not is more important than whether I am nationally registered or state licensed.

The provision of health care has become prohibitively expensive due to gubmint limiting choice from state to state. The unwillingness of the lawyer law makers to go against their own and put caps on law suits, i.e. tort reform. In fact this piece of legislation will penalize states with tort reform laws. Not directly of course. It's just a little adjustment in funding.

You think that catheter costs $1000 because the manufacturer needs that much or the hospital requires that much? There is a liability cost built into everything providers do. When physicians are forced to purchase malpractic insurance with premiums in excess of $100k per year, that's not part of the problem?

Sure the FDA has a purpose. When a drug company invests a generation of personnel and lab time, then has to run trials for several years before a drug is approved, thanks to the FDA, that drug company has a huge investment. The many which fail are a big loss. The few which succeed are the fruit of man-decades of labor, R&D and clinical trials. What, is the FDA going to start funding that too?

You say you have medicare. Then what is your problem? What will this law provide that you do not already enjoy? By the way, the zenith of the United States Economy was in 1905. We produced 80% of the world's goods with only 5% of the world's population. Taylorism, the Fed and the National Gubmint takeover of State land was the beginning of the end. A century later, the dollar is worth less every day and we consume more than we produce.

You think the U.S. Gubmint can never fail? Wow, you have had a good sip of the koolaid haven't you? The U.S. Gubmint owes more than the annual GDP of the entire world and continues to spend more, tax more and act like there is no bottom. Heaven help us all.