The Health Care Bill

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Post by dr.placebo » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:20 am

ygmir wrote:I'm not so sure we have the least effective healthcare system....although, I do know it breaks down a lot, but, when it works, it works best, IMHO.
Our health care system is demonstrably worse than just about any in Western Europe. We pay a grotesque amount more for inferior outcomes one the national level.

Our infant mortality rates are embarrassing compared to Western Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and even Cuba. A good percentage of that is the lack of coverage for poor mothers, who generally get little prenatal or postnatal care.

Now, if you can afford it, or your insurance company has not dropped you, the medical technology in the US is pretty spiffy. But the infection rate at US hospitals is generally much worse than Europe. More people die annually in the US from a hospital acquired infection than from AIDS, breast cancer, and auto accidents combined.

So, I'm not sure in what sense our health care system works best. The statistics I've seen (and cited two examples above) don't support that idea for the population at large.

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Post by ygmir » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:44 am

dr.placebo wrote:
ygmir wrote:I'm not so sure we have the least effective healthcare system....although, I do know it breaks down a lot, but, when it works, it works best, IMHO.
Our health care system is demonstrably worse than just about any in Western Europe. We pay a grotesque amount more for inferior outcomes one the national level.

Our infant mortality rates are embarrassing compared to Western Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and even Cuba. A good percentage of that is the lack of coverage for poor mothers, who generally get little prenatal or postnatal care.

Now, if you can afford it, or your insurance company has not dropped you, the medical technology in the US is pretty spiffy. But the infection rate at US hospitals is generally much worse than Europe. More people die annually in the US from a hospital acquired infection than from AIDS, breast cancer, and auto accidents combined.

So, I'm not sure in what sense our health care system works best. The statistics I've seen (and cited two examples above) don't support that idea for the population at large.
see, that's the kind of info that helps.
I'll follow up and do some research, now that you've pointed me in the right direction.
I had stated the above, as my opinion, because, I didn't have the info directly.
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:51 pm

I read a claim that the health care bill is a transfer of power to the executive branch. YGMIR, could you check it all out for us? Thanks !!!


Date: Mar 24, 2010
The Truth About the Health Care Bills/*/ - Michael Connelly, Ret.
Constitutional Attorney

Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House
Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009. I studied it
with particular emphasis from my area of expertise, constitutional law.
I was frankly concerned that parts of the proposed law that were being
discussed might be unconstitutional. What I found was far worse than
what I had heard or expected.

To begin with, much of what has been said about the law and its
implications is in fact true, despite what the Democrats and the media
are saying. The law *does* provide for *rationing* of health care,
particularly where senior citizens and other classes of citizens are
involved, free health care for illegal immigrants, free abortion
services, and probably forced participation in abortions by members of
the medical profession.

The Bill will also eventually force private insurance companies out of
business, and put everyone into a government run system. All decisions
about personal health care will ultimately be made by federal
bureaucrats, and most of them will not be health care professionals.
Hospital admissions, payments to physicians, and allocations of
necessary medical devices will be strictly controlled by the government.

However, as scary as all of that is, it just scratches the surface. In
fact, I have concluded that this legislation really has no intention of
providing affordable health care choices. Instead it is a convenient
cover for the most massive transfer of power to the Executive Branch of
government that has ever occurred, or even been contemplated If this
law or a similar one is adopted, major portions of the Constitution of
the United States will effectively have been destroyed.

The first thing to go will be the masterfully crafted balance of power
between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the U.S.
Government. The Congress will be transferring to the Obama
Administration authority in a number of different areas over the lives
of the American people, and the businesses they own. //

The irony is that the Congress *doesn't have any authority* to legislate
in most of those areas to begin with! I defy anyone to read the text of
the U.S. Constitution and find any authority granted to the members of
Congress to regulate health care. //

This legislation also provides for access, by the appointees of the
Obama administration, of all of your personal healthcare* direct
violation of the specific provisions of the 4th Amendment to the
Constitution* information, your personal financial information, and the
information of your employer, physician, and hospital. All of this is a
protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures. You can also
forget about the right to privacy. That will have been legislated into
oblivion *regardless of what the 3rd and 4th Amendments* may provide...

If you decide not to have healthcare insurance, or if you have private
insurance that is not deemed acceptable to the Health Choices
Administrator appointed by Obama, there will be a tax imposed on you.
*It is called a tax instead of a fine because of the intent to avoid
application of the due process clause of the 5th Amendment*. However,
that doesn't work because since there is nothing in the law that allows
you to contest or appeal the imposition of the tax, *it is definitely
depriving someone of property without the due process of law.

So, there are three of those pesky amendments that the far left hate so
much, out the original ten in the Bill of Rights, that are effectively
nullified by this law* It doesn't stop there though. *

The 9th Amendment that provides*: The enumeration in the Constitution,
of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others
retained by the people; *

The 10th Amendment states*: The powers not delegated to the United
States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
preserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Under the
provisions of this piece of Congressional handiwork neither the people
nor the states are going to have any rights or powers at all in many
areas that once were theirs to control.

I could write many more pages about this legislation, but I think you
get the idea. This is not about health care; it is about seizing power
and limiting rights... *Article 6 of the Constitution* requires the
members of both houses of Congress to "be bound by oath or affirmation
to support the Constitution." If I was a member of Congress I would not
be able to vote for this legislation or anything like it, without
feeling I was violating that sacred oath or affirmation. If I voted for
it anyway, I would hope the American people would hold me accountable.

For those who might doubt the nature of this threat, I suggest they
*consult the source, the US Constitution, and Bill of Rights*. There you
can see exactly what we are about to have taken from us.

Michael Connelly //
Retired attorney,
Constitutional Law Instructor
Carrollton , Texas /
*
_
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Post by Marscrumbs » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:56 pm

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Post by Trishntek » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:11 pm

Ummmm,,,, yeah that's what I was trying to say in a lot more words,,,, "It's not about health care. It is about power and control moving to the executive branch of gubmint.
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Post by Ranger Genius » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:44 pm

I defy anyone to read the text of
the U.S. Constitution and find any authority granted to the members of
Congress to regulate health care
Challenge accepted!

Article I section 8 specifically enumerates the powers that Congress has.
Clause 3 gives congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, so any business that crosses state lines falls under their jurisdiction.
Clause 13 of same also gives them the power to pass laws "necessary and proper" for executing the powers they're granted. That would include regulating and standardizing the healthcare industry.

ETA: this interpretation of I.8.13 has been upheld repeatedly by the supreme court.
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Post by ygmir » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:10 am

interesting POV on that, RG. It does open some doors.

I think what irritates me about this, and, most legislation, is how it compels us to do things.......and, in a sense, is "compulsory charity", meaning, "they" take our money, and, distribute it as "they" see fit.

I have an aversion to some pencil neck in washinton telling me how to live, or what to do, or, whom to help.
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Post by Trishntek » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:57 am

It is one unfortunate consequence of the civil war. States rights were inhibited and over run by those interpretations.
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Post by magicmarty » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:08 am

Yeah, kind of a shame that women got the vote and we no longer have slavery. Dang that Civil War. Inconvenient Yeah and labor costs have skyrocketed without those fiesty little 8 year olds to supplement the work force. Ahhh for the good old days. IMHO not
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:20 am

The civil war wasn't about slavery. Almost everyone knows that. It was states-rights Vs federal law. It was a very stupid war. France managed to abolish slavery and gain equality in other areas without a civil war. Slavery was / is very inefficient. Our current system of wage-slavery would have supplanted physical slavery just as it did in most other countries.
Universal suffrage isn't any panacea either.
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Post by AntiM » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:27 am

Of course if you live in a Nanny state such as Utah, states rights are very scary. I'd rather have the federal government running things, Big Brother will let you do things Mommy Dearest will not. Besides, they're my damn tax dollars, send them to Utah!

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Post by ygmir » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:10 am

AntiM wrote:Of course if you live in a Nanny state such as Utah, states rights are very scary. I'd rather have the federal government running things, Big Brother will let you do things Mommy Dearest will not. Besides, they're my damn tax dollars, send them to Utah!
wow...............

States rights are paramount, IMHO..........., but, thinking the feds are going to "help".......yikes. Think they will do, or even know, what's best for "you" where you live, how you live.
The other side is, that, who knows what is needed, specifically? Mommy dearest, or, some pencil neck politician in washington......from some other place?

and, states rights, should be, that, your tax dollars don't go to washington.......to then be doled back, only if you behave and comply........

of course, this comes from an anarchist/pagan........(anarchist in the strictest sense, not the "burn it down, tear it up" sort).
so, my opinion, and 2.69 will get you a cup of coffee.........
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Post by magicmarty » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:47 am

Hey, YG, I'll join you in that cup of coffee
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Post by ygmir » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:42 am

Hi Marty......c'mon over to the bar2 then..........

I'll pour.
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Post by dr.placebo » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:19 am

can't sit still wrote:The civil war wasn't about slavery. Almost everyone knows that. It was states-rights Vs federal law. It was a very stupid war. France managed to abolish slavery and gain equality in other areas without a civil war. Slavery was / is very inefficient. Our current system of wage-slavery would have supplanted physical slavery just as it did in most other countries.
Universal suffrage isn't any panacea either.
Not everyone agrees with this. It would be correct to say that the civil war was not ONLY about slavery, but denying that it was a major motivation would need a lot of evidence, which I doubt that you have.

Slavery is inefficient, true, but the south did not see it that way.

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Post by illy dilly » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:46 am

The health reform bill scares me and pisses me off at the same time!
I live on a tight budget alreay, I work hard for my money, I went to college so I could get a job with benefits such as health care
So
I don't need the Fed taking more tax, and giving it to some poor lazy guy who isn't willing to work. Everyday I drive to work I see young guys in their 20's and 30's out on the corner begging for money. Then I get to the job site and what happens? I can't ask the drywallers to move so I can test some cable because of a language barrier.
So if the whole bill passes, I'm going to have to work harder and longer so I have the same government issued health care as, the young capable lazy bum, and the illegal laborer (who sends his money back to mexico).
There would be no reason to try! I'm going to quit my job get on welfare, section 8 housing, and government health care.
If the government starts telling doctors what they'll get paid, then why would any doctor want to be the best? If they're going to get paid the same as every other doctor.
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Post by Trishntek » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:58 pm

A urologist, an anesthesiologist and I decided we are going to open a triple-store complex instead of taking care of patients for free. The urologist will run the medical pot store and write the scripts onsite. The anesthesiologist will have a pizza parlor on one side and I'll bake the cookies on the other side.

ygmir? can we count on you to pour the coffee?
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Post by Trishntek » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:35 pm

magicmarty wrote:Yeah, kind of a shame that women got the vote and we no longer have slavery. Dang that Civil War. Inconvenient Yeah and labor costs have skyrocketed without those fiesty little 8 year olds to supplement the work force. Ahhh for the good old days. IMHO not
The "War between the States" was about individual state rights to secede from the Union. Women's rights were actually fulfilled when Susan B. Anthony was elected governor in the rascally little conservative state of Wyoming. The Civil War had nothing to do with women's suffrage.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I began working when I was 12 years old. Seems to me that one thing illegal immigration has done to our society has diminished opportunities for our youth to actually learn how to work while in school. At least around here, what used to be summer jobs and part-time jobs for young people are careers for the "shadow people" these days. There is absolutely nothing wrong with kids learning how to work. Forced labor is something else entirely. And working instead of learning is not acceptable.

MM, the saddest thing in our society today is that the cost of living has required the necessity of two-income families to make a decent living. Women's rights basically doubled the workforce and now contributes to all labor statistics. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, it's just an unintended consequence just like the loss of states rights.

According to the U.S. Constitution, as originally intended, the states allowed the National Government limited powers. Those powers were specifically outlined in that document. If it was not written in that document, the power did not exist for the National Government to exercise. Like everything else in human history, corruption, greed and fraternity have made it into just another historic document of little value.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:23 pm

Trishntek wrote: The "War between the States" was about individual state rights to secede from the Union. ...
Secede over their questionable right to have slavery in those states...

Healthcare!
One wit said that we should contract out to Canada and Mexico. Hoo-boy. He also said that we would have more taxpayers if the damn liberals hadn't performed abortions on them! :)

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Post by Ranger Genius » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:40 pm

Trishntek wrote:A urologist, an anesthesiologist and I decided we are going to open a triple-store complex instead of taking care of patients for free. The urologist will run the medical pot store and write the scripts onsite. The anesthesiologist will have a pizza parlor on one side and I'll bake the cookies on the other side.

ygmir? can we count on you to pour the coffee?
Health insurance companies are already telling doctors and hospitals how much they can charge. Read the billing statement from your doctor's office sometime after your insurance company has paid their part. The insurance company typically gets a discount of 60-80% of the billed rate. Because THEY, (the insurance co) decide what that service is worth, not the doctor. Should the providers be allowed to fleece everyone else, marking services up 500% for some customers compared to others (those customers who can least afford it, to boot)?
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:09 pm

I found an interesting paper on health care.

"Younger Americans with health insurance will drop their policies. Sure, they know that they will have to pay a penalty when they file their taxes, but that penalty will be much less than the cost of a health insurance policy … costs that will be going up. Besides … because insurance companies can no longer discriminate against people with preexisting conditions, there is absolutely no reason in the world to go out there and buy an insurance policy until you really become ill.

Since health young Americans will be dropping insurance, or staying out of the market if they never had insurance in the first place, the insurance companies will find more and more that their customers are among the unhealthiest of Americans"
"Net result: Slowly but surely government competition will force private insurance out of the marketplace"
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/o ... t_03222010
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Post by ygmir » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:23 pm

Trishntek wrote:A urologist, an anesthesiologist and I decided we are going to open a triple-store complex instead of taking care of patients for free. The urologist will run the medical pot store and write the scripts onsite. The anesthesiologist will have a pizza parlor on one side and I'll bake the cookies on the other side.

ygmir? can we count on you to pour the coffee?
I'm there, pouring any libation and beverage you want.........
but, I'm thinking, with the new system, my "real" business may really pick up..........
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Post by Trishntek » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:05 am

Soooo you're a funeral director,,, eh?
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Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:41 am

well, no.
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Post by can't sit still » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:06 am

YGMIR, I went through the tomb of Ramses. He had a nifty sarcophagus that was so big and heavy that the Romans had to break the lid in half to get it off. Can you give me a good deal on something in that line? :lol:
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Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:50 am

can do......just send me a drawing..........
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Post by Rice » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:59 am

Ok, I have been watching the US health care debate for a while now.

I am observing this from a Canadian perspective. At the moment I do not have any additional health insurance, beyond that which my province offers.

When I need to see a doctor, it does not cost me anything.
When I needed to be hospitalized due to a nasty kidney stone, it didn't cost me anything.
When my son broke his arm, I had to pay for the cast, but not the emergency clinic visit.

I do not have dental or optical coverage, so I have to pay for all expenses out of my own pocket (this is where having medical coverage from work would be nice)...

I have MS, and I still get the basic coverage offered. The law says that is my right.

What I am wondering is this: If this new bill gives you basic health coverage and the right to get additional coverage no matter how sick you are, why would this not be a good thing??

I realize I do not know all the details, I have not read the official text. So I welcome your comments...

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Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:35 pm

as I understand our new "law".........it is nothing like what you have up there..............

I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

but, I'm sure others here have a better understanding........
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:35 pm

ygmir wrote:interesting POV on that, RG. It does open some doors.

I think what irritates me about this, and, most legislation, is how it compels us to do things.......and, in a sense, is "compulsory charity", meaning, "they" take our money, and, distribute it as "they" see fit.

I have an aversion to some pencil neck in washinton telling me how to live, or what to do, or, whom to help.
This is not a new concept. You can't drive without insurance. For one example.

The only objection I have to the bill is that it doesn't go far enough. We need a public option at a minimum, single payer would be best.

Right now, insurance companies still are coming out ahead with 30 million new subscribers.

oh well, there's always next year.

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Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:45 pm

yeah, JK, but, when have you seen congress change anything? and, if they do, when has it been for the better.......I can see them/you saying "next year" for the next decade........

I resent that they forced it on us, (IIRC, more citizens are against than for), and, I'd rather they did it right, once, even if it takes a long time, than a half assed, (if not outright disingenuous) bill, then say they'll "fix it later"...........
I don't trust 'em to fix it, right, if at all.

I don't think the drive/insurance analogy is correct.

To me, it should be simple, if, you subscribe to universal health care paid for by the gov.

2700 pages smacks of backroom, under handed dealings.......pay offs, nepotism..........all that.

if it was "that good", more people would be on board.
and, then, using parliamentary procedures, (not unprecedented, except on something of this magnitude), to pass it.........dang.......
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