Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:05 am

Thecatman wrote:Now maybe the good people of Arizona can legally shoot illegals as they cross the border illegally
Give the minutemen some support

awe leave the little people alone, the real evil dudes who deserve this sit in plush offices on Wall St.

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:08 am

One patrol car per shift for 720 square miles.
Authorities recommend Citizens arm themselves.

http://www.rgj.com/article/20100409/NEWS12/100409003

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:05 pm

Ok, so its not a firearm, but are strict rules regarding airsoft rifles. I read somewhere, I think, that 1/4" of the muzzel, must be orange. Here's my situation, and question...

I bought an AK~47 airsoft, as a present to myself, for fulfilling my legal obligations... after firing a real AK in my studio apartment. Its almost identical in weight, and appearance, to my long lost buddy. It came with an orange flash hider...and an all black, metal flash hider. No plans on using the metal one, especially since the orange one is glued on. The orange flash hider, is completely orange! Don't mind the orange, can't see it when shooting, but it looks silly. Here's my question..Is it legal, especially in cali, to paint most of the device flat black, leaving the federally mandated tip on the hider?
It would be a modification, but I think still legal. But, like the AW laws, their is a lot of confusion. Any Airsoft peeple out their?

geospyder · Post by **geospyder** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:31 pm

Put yourself in the position of a law enforcement officer that sees you with your airsoft AK, that as you stated looks like the real thing. Mr LEO doesn't see the orange tip so he has to assume it is real. Not a good situation.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:07 pm

Another scenerio is if some drug dealer/bad guy paints the tip of the
blue barrel of say a Ruger GP100 bright orange and an LEO decides NOT to use deadly force because he thinks its a toy.
Of course the GP100 is a revover and hopefuly the LEO would see the
rounds in the exposed chambers.... just using that as an example
And also the bad guy would probably use a less expensive semi auto
pistol like a Bersa 9mm for under $475 and even then it would probaly be stolen

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:39 pm

Just don't point it at them.

It my not be legal to paint the tip of a weapon orange.

A cutoff metal broom handle will fit on some rifle barrels and the plastic grip can be removed or fired through.
This permits a rifle to fit in a very small tool bag, with the grip poking out.

Why would someone have a cheap gun if they are dealing drugs?
They had to restrict sales of the high dollar vests here, so the drug dealers didn't buy all of them.

Still, a lot of punks have very poor maintenance and choices.
That's one reason citizens have had so much success defending themselves.

The most recent driveby near here was rifle fire and killed two people on the spot, through a house.
Some of it is very serious.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:05 pm

geospyder wrote:Put yourself in the position of a law enforcement officer that sees you with your airsoft AK, that as you stated looks like the real thing. Mr LEO doesn't see the orange tip so he has to assume it is real. Not a good situation.

Its pretty damned orange! And I understand...cops didn't say a thing about my airsoft MP40 when they busted me...Don't mind the orange tip at all! Just want to beautify my airsoft a bit.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:08 pm

gyre wrote:Just don't point it at them.

It my not be legal to paint the tip of a weapon orange.

A cutoff metal broom handle will fit on some rifle barrels and the plastic grip can be removed or fired through.
This permits a rifle to fit in a very small tool bag, with the grip poking out.

Why would someone have a cheap gun if they are dealing drugs?
They had to restrict sales of the high dollar vests here, so the drug dealers didn't buy all of them.

Still, a lot of punks have very poor maintenance and choices.
That's one reason citizens have had so much success defending themselves.

The most recent driveby near here was rifle fire and killed two people on the spot, through a house.
Some of it is very serious.

This little airsoft cost me about $50 less than a real AK. And! Its full auto!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:14 pm

Interesting that our country has martial law in two countries now and every citizen there is allowed to own selectable weapons.
But not here.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:32 pm

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:23 pm

"Nevadans free to openly carry guns."
Front page article in todays home delivered Reno Gazette-Urinal www.rgj.com
Take from the las vegas sun
I went to the sun web site and could'nt find it

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:06 pm

In referense to the post by cowboyangel on April 8th about AZ.
Governor Jan Brewer signed it.
Now she should run for president and Maricopa county sheriff Joe Arpaio can be her running mate.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:36 pm

Thanks for the response! But it is legal to paint an airsoft tip..provided, 1/4 inch of orange remains on the end. Also...its illegal to walk around in public, with an airsoft. Real guns? Fine!

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:10 pm

http://iapcar.com/

The International Association for the Protection of Civilian Arms Rights (IAPCAR) met...in Nuremberg, Germany. Gun rights organizations and activists from several countries, including Sweden, Norway, Germany, the United Kingdom, Canada, Italy and the United States attended. The group's official slogan is "Liberty and Security."

SAF Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb, who serves as an IAPCAR director, just returned from the meeting, and he is encouraged that groups from other countries, including The Philippines, Switzerland, Belgium, Argentina, Finland, India, Israel, Greece, South Africa, and Australia are also interested in joining.

Trishntek · Post by **Trishntek** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:17 am

Thanks Risky! I was not aware of such organizations. It is encouraging to see the whole world is not drinking the koolaid

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:18 am

The Result of Gun Confiscation -
Sudden hand to hand combat with prepared attackers.
And the return to government that prosecutes self defense.

Burglar murder charge is dropped

A man who stabbed a teenage burglar to death during a break-in at his mother's home has had a murder charge against him dropped by prosecutors.

Tyler Juett, 17, and a boy of 14 broke into the property in Nottingham in March 2009 but were confronted by 23-year-old Omari Roberts.

The 17-year-old died from his injuries. A judge at Nottingham Crown Court formally found Mr Roberts not guilty.

Mr Roberts' mother had called the decision to prosecute "outrageous".

Mr Roberts stabbed the teenager after he discovered him ransacking the house in the Basford area of the city and was later charged with murder and attacking his 14-year-old accomplice, who cannot be named.

The Crown Prosecution Service took the decision to drop the charges against Mr Roberts shortly before the case against him was due to begin at Nottingham Crown Court on Monday.

Speaking outside the court, Mr Roberts' mother Jacqueline McKenzie-Johnson said: "He looks a little bit more relieved now.

"It's still a very difficult time. The charges have been dropped and now it's time for us to look at how we're feeling because we've been fighting this for so long.

"We haven't had an opportunity to think about how it's affected us and is going to affect us."

The court heard that the decision to drop the charges came after the younger of the two burglars was re-interviewed by detectives two weeks before Easter.

The boy, who is now 15, suffered two stab wounds to his right knee during an initial confrontation with Mr Roberts in the kitchen of the semi-detached house.

He claimed he then fled the house with Mr Roberts in pursuit. Prosecutors said this gave them a realistic chance of gaining a conviction as it meant Mr Roberts would have had time to call police.

But in the interview last month, the boy admitted he waited for his accomplice outside the house.

This supported the assertion by Mr Roberts that his struggle with the 17-year-old, from Aspley in Nottingham, immediately followed a fight with the boy, Gregory Dickinson QC, prosecuting, said.

The teenage accomplice also told a social worker following the burglary that he did have a knife, despite telling police he was unarmed.

Mr Roberts' lawyer Jonathan Eppley said after the case: "Omari was put in a position in which he was fighting for his life.

"He had no option but to defend himself - everything happened in a split second, he'd just returned to his mum's house for a little bit to eat and found himself in a terrible position.

"This could happen to any one of us. Omari could be anyone's son, brother, or friend.

"He's an ordinary, average down-to-earth person who had just gone home and found himself in the next two seconds involved in this terrible position, whereby he was in a struggle for his life."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 629395.stm

Risky · Post by **Risky** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:10 pm

PHOENIX â€” Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/1 ... 41445.html

geospyder · Post by **geospyder** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:04 pm

Risky wrote:PHOENIX â€” Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/1 ... 41445.html

I wonder how many of those people carrying in AZ even know which way to point their weapon. I say that tongue in cheek but it does scare me that I didn't see anything about training being involved. I spend a minimum of six hours per month training in defensive shooting. There is a lot more to it than just pointing and pulling the trigger.

Thecatman · Post by **Thecatman** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:09 am

geospyder wrote:...I spend a minimum of six hours per month in defensive shooting...

Thats admirable. Though a lot of folks like myself don't have the time or resources to afford such extensive training. I'll be happy when I just get my CCW.
It boils down to the fact that the bad guys don't have CCW premit, where requiered, or any training what-so-ever.
I recently put $50 down on a .380 to use as a conceal-carry, but I won't carry it until after I take the minimum class to get a permit. Short of taking to a range.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:34 am

I would rather see it less restrictive.

The classes are not cost effective, because they are required, and they are the major roadblock to obtaining a permit.
There are never enough classes available.
Due to large class sizes and the number of novices, there is little covered.
And I went to the best facility we have available here.
Most are less adequate.

The cost is a big issue if you are simultaneously buying weapons and gear.
It is the reason many people that need it most, don't get it.
It caused a long delay for me.

The cost is less here than it used to be, and I had to wait for that to happen.

The training is too skimpy to help with someone who is not trying to learn already or an idiot.
It essentially duplicated training I already had.
In fact, a few of us were used as education for the class.

They do make an effort to cover as much as possible at rangemaster, the range I trained with.
They shoot for far better accuracy than required by the state.
But they do emphasize how limited the class is.
They offer far more, ranging up to training for federal and military.
They are having a long personal defense class coming up, taught by Ayoob.
I wish I could make that.

Mississippi requires no classes and apparently sends out no educational material at all, which I would think a minimum.
A rangemaster graduate was nearly killed recently when a Mississippi resident carrying a derringer without a holster!!!!! banged her purse down on the floor and fired it upwards.
Fortunately it caught someone's leg before it hit the graduate in the head, who was in line with the gun.

I can see someone missing the subtlety of some weapons which are not safe without a covered trigger, but a derringer?
Beyond stupid!
Hard to tell if safety reminders or a class would have helped this person.

It's worth noting that rangemaster graduates, including those without advanced training, routinely survive shootouts here.

The woman who ran upstairs and fired from there at robbers trying to kill her husband, and hit one of them, is a graduate of the required class only.
She said she failed to hit the second robber only because her weapon jammed and she wasn't trained in clearing it.
It probably jammed due to lack of break-in and lack of practice too.
Remarkable shooting under stress for someone with so little training.

To simulate reality, make sure your hands are shaking when you try to aim.

The range sends out newsletters with news of self defense incidents, especially involving graduates.
Anyone wanting on the mailing list, email me (not pm please).
I'll send you a link.

The most recent robbery that caught my attention here was someone leaving a bank.
They ran when the robber tried to stop them.
Another robber climbed out of a truck and shot them in the back.
The victim was unarmed.
I haven't heard if they lived.

The number of permits here is still shockingly low, due to delays in paperwork, getting in a class and the costs involved.
Then it is also so restrictive that many law abiding citizens can't qualify.
But it does come to about 5% now.
That means that if you rob twenty people here, one of them will try to shoot you dead.
And many people must carry without permits, of course.
No figures on that.

The effect on violent crime is dramatic here.

Harder to measure is the number of people who have delayed fleeing the city due to having a permit.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:51 am

Thecatman wrote: Though a lot of folks like myself don't have the time or resources to afford such extensive training. I'll be happy when I just get my CCW.
It boils down to the fact that the bad guys don't have CCW premit, where requiered, or any training what-so-ever.
I recently put $50 down on a .380 to use as a conceal-carry, but I won't carry it until after I take the minimum class to get a permit. Short of taking to a range.

You can always find someone with more training to train you.
Many will do it to keep themselves sharp or just to help.
You can train by yourself, once you know what to do.
And there are many books and dvds available.
You just have to try to find practice ammo at a decent price.

With the P3AT being the lightest 380 in existence, you need more training than those with heavier weapons.
And all of the smaller weapons are harder to use,
Definitely get the finger extension.

Limp wristing is a known issue with such low mass, though less so with high power ammo.
You should fire at least a few of the better rounds, just to know how much stronger it will be.
You may want to try one with an empty magazine.
Take special note of how such light weapons change balance as the magazine empties.

Make sure the gun is well lubricated before starting.
200 rounds are suggested for break-in.
Some need more, some less.
Keep going if you keep getting malfunctions, until they stop.

Sail Man · Post by **Sail Man** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:53 am

gyre wrote:I would rather see it less restrictive.

The classes are not cost effective, because they are required, and they are the major roadblock to obtaining a permit.
There are never enough classes available.
Due to large class sizes and the number of novices, there is little covered.
And I went to the best facility we have available here.
Most are less adequate.

The cost is a big issue if you are simultaneously buying weapons and gear.
It is the reason many people that need it most, don't get it.
It caused a long delay for me.

The cost is less here than it used to be, and I had to wait for that to happen.

The training is too skimpy to help with someone who is not trying to learn already or an idiot.
It essentially duplicated training I already had.
In fact, a few of us were used as education for the class.

They do make an effort to cover as much as possible at rangemaster, the range I trained with.
They shoot for far better accuracy than required by the state.
But they do emphasize how limited the class is.
They offer far more, ranging up to training for federal and military.
They are having a long personal defense class coming up, taught by Ayoob.
I wish I could make that.

Michigan's CPL classes are also full. 150$ is average cost plus 105$ at your local jurisdiction for processing, plus passport photo's, which cost me around 10$ at Walgreen's. I have a Ruger P89 in 9mm but it's a tad big for CC so I'll be looking for a more compact 9. I also need to pick up a .22 for a survival kit. Could also use a new MBR, and then there's the wifey's b'day coming up next month, leaning towards a Rem 870 youth model.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:31 am

I got in by going on standby.
But you have to be ready to go when an opening shows up.

Rohrbaugh has a nice 9 mm, if pricey.
You probably have seen the others.

http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/

much2naughty2 · Post by **much2naughty2** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:01 am

Washington doesn't require training for CCW. When I applied for mine, people were lined up down the hallway, even though the process took only 15-20 minutes. Clerk at the desk where I turned in my paperwork said it had been like that for some time. Washington CCW's are recognized in more states than Idaho, so a lot of ID folks come over here to get a permit.

I carry a S&W MP-40. I'ts a little heavy for true concealment, but when it's on me, it's holstered on my belt mostly in plain view, but traveling it's out of sight, but within reach.

Carrying is a big responsibility and a personal risk, especially if you're unwilling and uncommited to ever pulling the trigger on someone. That said, I'd rather have one than not.

My favorite PPE is my short barrel pistol grip, 8 shot, 870 Remington. Nothing more frightning or unmistakable to here in the dark than the racking sound of a shotgun. Also great to strap onto the ATV.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:14 pm

If you aren't prepared to use a gun, you're better off not carrying.
They will rush you and they don't expect you to fire.
Dateline or 20/20 did a series on home invasions and in every case, the homeowner holding a gun was rushed before firing.
One citizen was pointing a shotgun at them.

Non-violent criminals will surrender.
Unfortunately non-violent criminals don't break into homes.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:19 pm

â€œDonâ€™t Go Places Where
You Need a Gunâ€

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:44 pm

Gyre, are you prepared have someone's blood on your hands for the rest of your life?

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:25 pm

If I wasn't, I'd already be dead.

But we're talking about self defense here.
The decision to assume risk is entirely the assailant's.
It isn't up to the person defending themselves.

You never really know how you will react in such a situation.
Last time I had to actually fire, I was completely convinced I was going to die, and yet I violated all training to try to avoid killing.
An unwise reaction, but we are what we are.
(And this is why training is so very important.)

I was caught completely off guard, which is more the rule.
And I suffered considerable shock as a result.

And I'm alive.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:32 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Gyre, are you prepared have someone's blood on your hands for the rest of your life?

Dougly:
are you prepared to lie bleeding in the street because some meth addict wants your wallet, and, is in no mood to negotiate or even let you live?

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:33 am

It just might be worthwhile giving him my wallet. Right now, I got $11 and a maxed out credit card.

Ever read a book called In The Gravest Extreme? By Massad Ayoob. He's an experienced cop who teaches firearm skills internationally. His recommendation? If you're not in mortal danger, go ahead and give the creep some cash.

Some people are okay with a death on their hands and some aren't. It's hard to say how anyone will react. Just saying.

Which particular neighborhood is it where you need a gun to survive? I have wandered the streets of Bangkok, Karachi, Manila, Tijuana and Hong Kong, alone, at night, with no trouble (with no firearm and usually with an expensive camera). What's Oakland got that I should be afraid of? My thought is that it's the attitude, not the hardware.