Immigration, good or bad

[ygmir]

I don't see that I've introduced race in this discussion as relates to immigration.
I was proposing, that, boarders and racism developed simultaneously.

But, to say there is no racism in this problem, seems somewhat naive.

I totally agree, that, borders should have to do with nationality, not race, especially in our melting pot of a country.

I was just, perhaps (astonishingly), committing some thread drift I suppose.

[Trishntek]

I don't see that I've introduced race in this discussion as relates to immigration.
I was proposing, that, boarders and racism developed simultaneously.

But, to say there is no racism in this problem, seems somewhat naive.

I totally agree, that, borders should have to do with nationality, not race, especially in our melting pot of a country.

I was just, perhaps (astonishingly), committing some thread drift I suppose.

Ahhhh YGMIR,,,, I was not saying that in response to your post. It was more pointed at what simon said earlier. Sorry for confusion!

The racism aspect exists,,,, no argument there. My thesis stands on the notion that the racism is not the motivation behind immigration law or the enforcement thereof. Racism is thrust into the debate by those trying to defend their transgressions of those laws and those supporting them.

Racial issues have gone from equality, as MLK sought in the 1960's, to the favoritism of affirmative action, to the present day exception. In other words, BECAUSE of a person's race, specific laws should not apply to them?

[Thecatman]

I would love a world without boarders, ...

AMEN

[Trishntek]

I would love a world without boarders, ...

AMEN

Them's fightin' words in a surfin' town,,,, unless you really are talkin' about borders.

[ygmir]

I would love a world without boarders, ...

AMEN

Them's fightin' words in a surfin' town,,,, unless you really are talkin' about borders.

*chuckling* I was wondering if anyone would pick that up...........

[FIGJAM]

geez, I just caught that. Sometimes I just cont spill.......lol

[DVD Burner]

[ygmir]

chuckling.............cross post DVD?............and, we'll see if anyone picks up your logic error..........

[DVD Burner]

Posting the truth is a bitch.

[Ugly Dougly]

Two million illegals?!?!?

That's a lot, unless it's in a nation of 200 million plus, in which case it's one percent.

If you are in a movie theatre with 100 people and one of them has sneaked in without paying for their ticket, do you stop the show and inspect everyone's ticket? Just curious.

[ygmir]

Two million illegals?!?!?

That's a lot, unless it's in a nation of 200 million plus, in which case it's one percent.

If you are in a movie theatre with 100 people and one of them has sneaked in without paying for their ticket, do you stop the show and inspect everyone's ticket? Just curious.

what if it happens every showing, and, that same person wants free popcorn and, your seat?

[ygmir]

Posting the truth is a bitch.

yer missin' my point..........

[Ugly Dougly]

Two million illegals?!?!?

That's a lot, unless it's in a nation of 200 million plus, in which case it's one percent.

If you are in a movie theatre with 100 people and one of them has sneaked in without paying for their ticket, do you stop the show and inspect everyone's ticket? Just curious.

what if it happens every showing, and, that same person wants free popcorn and, your seat?

How about if they're the ones sweeping up the popcorn off the floor?

[Trishntek]

chuckling.............cross post DVD?............and, we'll see if anyone picks up your logic error..........

That war was won way back then,,,,, and it was an invasion, expansion and war when necessary. It is a ridiculous notion to cherry pick historical fact while disregarding other historical fact. The insinuation understood from this is that we are all immigrants by fault of ancestry. If the Revolutionary war were not won, maybe we could be a divided nation of English, French and Spanish and be lorded over by those Old World governments.

While it is true this country, as we know it today, was built by immigrants. It is also true that their efforts created a nation of laws pertaining to citizenship and rights of passage. Even an illegal immigrant can birth a child in this country and that child is granted citizenship. But somehow, we who are several generations removed from our ancestral immigrants are guilty of hypocrisy for requiring legal passage onto a land established by the wisdom, dedication and fortitude of those ancestors.

By the logic demonstrated above, the United States should never have come into existence. Yet the motivation behind that logic proposes letting everyone and anyone into the U.S. Citizenship means nothing, national sovereignty means nothing and therefore, laws mean nothing. So let's just all give up and go home,,,, turn the boat around and,,,,, hmmmmmm this is my home! I was born here! My parents were born here!

Of course, by the same logic, Canada would be free from that rascally dual language thing they do,,,, guessing they would be speaking Inuvic or some other tribal words. Central and South America would also be the land of "Native Americans". Guessing they would be known as the "New World Tribes" since the notion of a nation would not exist. They would just kill you if you stepped on their side of the river. And that would be okay,,,, because they of course never had ancestors who wandered to this land from anywhere else,,,,, right?

[Trishntek]

Two million illegals?!?!?

That's a lot, unless it's in a nation of 200 million plus, in which case it's one percent.

If you are in a movie theatre with 100 people and one of them has sneaked in without paying for their ticket, do you stop the show and inspect everyone's ticket? Just curious.

what if it happens every showing, and, that same person wants free popcorn and, your seat?

How about if they're the ones sweeping up the popcorn off the floor?

So let's follow this logical train down the rabbit hole. The ticket taker is the gate keeper for the theater and is supposed to make sure everyone has a ticket before entering. If the gate keeper is not performing that duty correctly, the gate keeper will be replaced by someone who will perform that duty. If the gate keeper allows a few to enter without a ticket, the theater owner does not do away with requiring a ticket to enter the theater.

If, on the other hand, someone is willing to sweep the floor in order to get in the theater that would be up to the theater management and not the gate keeper to make that arrangement. But if the management allows one to do that, and others see it happen, then everyone wants to get in for the price of sweeping the floor. The theater ends up with a clean floor and no income. The floor keeps getting swept, but the movies play less and less until finally there is no gate keeper,,,,, no management,,,,,, no theater.

We are the management, gubmint is the gate keeper, the theater is our nation, the floor is our labor, and the movie is our treasure. What once was a part-time job for our youth while they attend school is now a career for those seeking a better life in our nation. We have 9.7% of our work force available to sweep the floor who already have a ticket.

I have empathy for those seeking a better life for themselves and their families. Our nation was built upon the backs of hard working immigrants. But they came through the door with a ticket. They did not sneak in through the fire exit, steal the "movie" and send it out the door while claiming to sweep the floor for the benefit of the management.

[DVD Burner]

Posting the truth is a bitch.

yer missin' my point..........

being?

[ygmir]

Posting the truth is a bitch.

yer missin' my point..........

being?

I was hoping you'd pick up on it, but, well, maybe not.
I'll not use the derisive and condescending and at times insulting, terms you so often apply to others.

To wit:

Seeing that cartoon, I'm assuming U.S. citizens are in place of the indians, for present reference.
And, the "illegal" immigrants, the people in the boat.
It could easily be inferred, that, the indians would have been better off, not letting "us" land here and take over, or change, things. And, that, they should have "built a wall" to keep us out.

In that case, you are agreeing with folks who don't want "illegal" immigrants allowed in, to take over, or "change" things.

So, to me, that cartoon bolsters "their" arguments, not yours.



We know, at least in the case of "La Raza" (sp?) et al and, some Mexican migrants, their intent is to take "Aztlan" (sp?) back.

so, why would we (citizens) want that to happen?

I have stated before, and will again:
I have no trouble, at all, with folks wanting to come here, for the "chance" (pursuit of happiness, no guarantees) to better their lives, and, to contribute to our country.
But, I think it should be, as "we" (government and policy) dictate, as far as rules go.

If the rules are so bad, let the majority vote and change them.

But, you should have to play by the rules to come here.
And, if you do, welcome and jump on in.
Here's your chance to work, succeed, or fail, by your own hand. But, don't immediately claim "rights and benefits" accorded to citizens here, unless and until, you are one.

One of the problems, of the porous border we have, to me, is, that so many come here destitute. And, being compassionate people, we want to help, and, mostly, do help. And, that's sucking dry the benefit pool for those already here, and, breeds resentment in some, because of that.

If the borders were better controlled (read closed), then, the destitute would not get here in the first place, but, those that play by the rules would come here, and, it'd present a whole different face to immigration.

[Ugly Dougly]

So let's follow this logical train down the rabbit hole.

Reducto ad absurdum.

My original point was that illegal immigrants are about 1% of our population. Would you care to address that?

My mind is not made up on this issue, but I am looking for a decent reason to expend our precious resources on a problem that may not be severe enough to warrant it.

[Trishntek]

So let's follow this logical train down the rabbit hole.

Reducto ad absurdum.

My original point was that illegal immigrants are about 1% of our population. Would you care to address that?

My mind is not made up on this issue, but I am looking for a decent reason to expend our precious resources on a problem that may not be severe enough to warrant it.

That one percent figure,,,, where does that come from? This is from the Christian Science Monitor:

“Note that according to the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that agitates for tighter border controls, the number of illegal immigrants living in the United States declined to 11 million in 2008 from 12.5 million in 2007. For the first time since the depths of the Great Depression in the early 1930s, more persons appear to have left the US than moved in.â€

[Ugly Dougly]

The number I quoted came from a conversative friend who was trying to stir up concern with a big number. Maybe he needs to bring up his game.

I wonder what the 2010 population is, or if anyone has a handle on the real number?

Gotta start with the facts, right?

Yes, the old name for our state is Alta California. As opposed to Baja California. It used to belong to Mexico, and before that, Spain. That's why many of our cities have Spanish names. Any border area is likely to have a mixture of cultures.

[Trishntek]

I do not ordinarily do this, but this is a book I highly recommend anyone with a curiosity about what the Progressive movement is progressing toward, read the Late Great U.S.A. by Jerome Corsi.

Dougly said: "Any border area is likely to have a mixture of cultures."

Ohhhhh so that is why you see so many French speaking Cajuns in Detroit? NOT! But honestly,,,,, if we want to see a more "American" culture,,,, we go 200 miles South to San Diego! Ventura County is 45% "caucasian" and 55% "minority". So who is the real minority where you live?

[can't sit still]

Connie Chung introduced Plaza de La Raza in Los Angeles as "Plaza of the People"
That isn't what it means. In that context, the word "raza" denotes race. The name would be accurately translated as Plaza of THE People. Or the RACE. Plaza of the people translates to Plaza de La Gente.
L.A. was settled by 44 people from Mexico in 1781. Previous to that there were a lot of different indigenous cultures. There was even a woman found in the La Brea tar pits.
People migrate and people are displaced. The whole Aztlan idea is a joke. There was never much settlement in the northern Mexican states of Chichuahua, Coahuilla and Sonora. Too dry. Both Alta and Baja California were never part of any developed culture. The aborigines ate acorns and squirrels. The empires of Mexico were developed in the alta-plano and the jungle. Aztlan is just a bunch of wishful thinking.

[Ugly Dougly]

So who is the real minority where you live?

I don't keep score, but I am often surrounded by people from around the world. I live in a cosmopolitan neighborhood. Doesn't bother me, even if some of them overstayed their visas.

[ygmir]

So who is the real minority where you live?

I don't keep score, but I am often surrounded by people from around the world. I live in a cosmopolitan neighborhood. Doesn't bother me, even if some of them overstayed their visas.

then, Dougly, are you of the opinion there is no problem with illegal (Russian, Hmong, Mexican, Romanian, Ugandan, whatever), immigration?
Or, are you saying that it's just not that big a deal?
Are you for any controls, or, just "open borders", and, benefits once anyone gets here?

I'm not judging you, or trying to pick on you, just wondering where you stand on that.

[Trishntek]

So who is the real minority where you live?

I don't keep score, but I am often surrounded by people from around the world. I live in a cosmopolitan neighborhood. Doesn't bother me, even if some of them overstayed their visas.

then, Dougly, are you of the opinion there is no problem with illegal (Russian, Hmong, Mexican, Romanian, Ugandan, whatever), immigration?
Or, are you saying that it's just not that big a deal?
Are you for any controls, or, just "open borders", and, benefits once anyone gets here?

I'm not judging you, or trying to pick on you, just wondering where you stand on that.

I probably miscalculated by mentioning the "minority" phrase in my discussion. I'm sure unintended consequences shall reveal themselves shortly.

Dougly, it does sound like a nice place to live. Your billboards are in English? I'll bet your local grade school even posts the events in English on their announcement board? I'm simply saying the culture where we live, 200 miles north of the border, is more like Mexico than San Diego.

[Ugly Dougly]

Just coming back here to see if we've solved the problem with illegal immigration. That's what we were discussing isn't it?

[Ugly Dougly]

Or, are you saying that it's just not that big a deal?

I am asking if the number of illegal immigrants is worth the risk of curtailing our essential liberties.

I've traveled around the world and learned a number of different languages. Seeing billboards in different languages doesn't - for me - constitute an emergency.

[Trishntek]

Or, are you saying that it's just not that big a deal?

I am asking if the number of illegal immigrants is worth the risk of curtailing our essential liberties.

I've traveled around the world and learned a number of different languages. Seeing billboards in different languages doesn't - for me - constitute an emergency.

We simply do have a different point of view Dougly. I appreciate various cultures and enjoy the challenge on basic latin studies of the past to put together some kind of monosyllabic sound which communicates a coherent thought.

There is a huge variety of cultures and places where those cultures exist. When Trish immigrated from Canada, citizenship requires the ability to communicate in English. If that is true, why are our voting ballots written in Spanish?

Another thing which affected Trish's income was reverse prejudice. As a commission sales person, the majority of customers prefer someone who "speaks the language". Which was demonstrated to be false when an Asian coworker who knows Spanish got the same treatment.

It's not the billboard or the grade school teaching in Spanish. It is the culture of blame, false guilt and the sense of entitlement. As noted in previous posts, illegal aliens cost society more than they benefit society. It is a means of sucking the life right out of our nations veins. If the integrity of a nation does not matter anymore, then I guess our generation might as well be the ones who do not care enough about our progeny to pass something worthwhile on to them.

I fully understand the "Citizen of the World" thing. I personally admire the United States for the ideals it was founded upon. There is very little left of those ideals being applied today. I drew the line somewhere along the way with the opinion that our culture of freedom and liberty and independence is quickly becoming a society of fairness and tyranny and dependence.

[Thecatman]

I caught the the last inning (12th) of the Giants-Marlins baseball game this evening that was played in Florida
Most ballparks have programable messages on the backstops nowadays.
A message on the Marlins backstop was in "spanish" with no english translation.
Kind of reverse of what is custom,
when this is done.

[can't sit still]

I've had latinos here in L.A. demand that I learn Spanish. If I suggest that they learn English, they get quite pissed off. When I inform them that I DO speak Spanish, they still see no reason to learn English.
All of our latino drivers here have been caught stealing. Some repeatedly. Many have been fired. One driver had to pay $ 100,000 restitution to a store. He paid right from his bank account. He wasn't at all poor. The store managers all say that they lose a fair percentage out the back door. The receiver is always arrested too.
It's amazing that they continually ignore the surveillance cameras. They get fired regularly but, don't seem to catch on.
The owners of the Vallarta store in Palmdale had the cops come in and arrest the manager a couple of weeks ago. They do it very publicly to try to alert others that they are watching.