Why is Burning Man so white?

[stuart]

crypto,

I came accross the long neck thing in a strange way. My wife was looking at a book of fashion through history and across cultures. It was fascinating to see the comparisons between wacky super high collar victorian outifts and african tribes that stretch folks necks out by adding successive decorative rings over the course of one's life. She pursued this info and found some research. I will see if she can find it again. I don't think this refutes your implication that people in different cultures and over time find different things attractive. It's just that some traits of beauty seem to be universal.

[stuart]

Oh,

and I am still wondering if anyone has a feel for why there are more men than women at burning <ahem> man

[Zulegoona]

Knock, knock, knock,.. Hello, This is Badger and I'm Zulegoona. We are here today to share with you and your neighbors some information about Burning Man. We are part of an outreach mission to under served communities. Have you heard of Burning Man before or of the life changing experiences people just like yourselves have had by participating in Burning Man?

Oh, ok thank you for your time. We'd like to leave you this copy of Pissing Clear you can read at your leisure, hope to see you on the Playa.

[DVD Burner]

Knock, knock, knock,.. Hello, This is Badger and I'm Zulegoona.

Now is'nt that Ironic.

[Ron]

.....
I might be misunderstanding you, but I see you on the one hand stating that DNA is the obvious choice for classifying race and on the other saying it is a poor indicator of race.

You are misunderstanding me. I'm saying, if we're going to say that race is an inheritable trait, then those groups which have the most similiar DNA would be in the same, race, yes? By definition, if race is inheritable then members of the same race will have DNA more similiar than members of different races. Are you with me?

Now if our previous metrics for race, largely skin color, are accurate we should see that caucasians have much different DNA that asians, who have different DNA than australian aborigines, who should have DNA much different than that of than Africans. Furthermore, members of the same race should have DNA with more in common with each other than they have DNA different with the other races. That's how we do grouping, mathmatically.

However, when the studies of DNA difference are actually done we do not see the above results. In fact, europeans and asians have DNA much more closely related than either to them are to africans. And africans have much more widly dispersed DNA than anyone else.

Here's anyother way to explain it. Consider a number line. Let's say that each person can be placed on that number line based on thier "racial traits." Everyone who falls in the 0 to 10 range are african, say, while everyone who falls from 11 to 20 is european, 21 to 30 asian, and so on. When we use skin color, facial ratios, and the like we get a nice system that puts africans in their range, europeans in theirs, and so on.

However when we use DNA we discover that africans give us results from 0 to 100, while all the other races only give us results from 100 to 105. Give that, and our concept that ever ten steps means we have enough differenct to delinate a race, we now see that europeans, asians, and the like are all actually one race. Using DNA they all fall withing 10 points of each other on our "difference scale." But this group we use to consider one race, Africans, it turns out take up almost all of our scale. We can't call that one race, it's 10, or whatever.

I'm trying to explain a concept on a bulleten board that physical anthropologists and molecular biologists are writing books about, so I can see how there'll be some confusion. The author I referenced earlier has a great 3d graph that demonstrates the concept. But the story is this, if we use obvious physcial characterics, like skin tone and the like, to create our concept of races we get the modern, U.S., concept of race. If we use the differences in DNA we get another, vastly different result. If race is an inheratable feature then we must admit that our prior system of evaluating race is wrong.

.....there are a bunch of defs from webster, this is the one I am thinking about

c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type

Yep, me too. If it's transmissible by descent then it must, by definition, be reflected in the DNA. That's how descent happens. And skin color is a poor index for difference in DNA, as it turns out.

...but just remember, I am Irish, and the Irish are the blacks of Europe.

My biological father was sold to the people who raised him in a bar. He was told that the woman who sold him was both his mother and a member of the Yakima tribe. Given the complete lack of paperwork it's impossible to say. I met him once, when I was 20 and his ethnic background is a complete mystery but he didn't look Yakima to me.

My mother was 13 when I was born, and she knows as far back as her mother. My grandmother worked her way west picking cotton with my grandfather and she knew that her people were from TX and some other state, and that's as far back as she knew. Now my grandfather, on my mother's side, he looked like the Nez Perce/white/mexican mix he thought he was. But his parents were all but unknown to him as well.

So I'm me. I look white, most folk treat me like I'm white, and my Hispanic friends took advantage of that when I grew up. When the cops screwed with us, I was the one to do the talking. :) But I'm really me, and I feel no connection with any ethnic group that came before me...

Ron

[Ron]

[....I don't mind seeing this discussion - it's interesting to see what everyone thinks. But as soon as someone suggests we "do something about it" because it's a problem, I'm going to heave.

LOL! Only thing to be done, seems to me, is be equally welcoming, friendly, and open to all folk on the playa and off, regardless of skin tone....

Ron

[Ron]

crypto,.... It's just that some traits of beauty seem to be universal.

Health and wealth, and those things that signal both, are pretty universally considered attractive from what I've read.....

Ron

[Ron]

Oh,

and I am still wondering if anyone has a feel for why there are more men than women at burning <ahem> man

Are you sure it's that or that more men fill out the census than do women?

Ron

[Stephen Lynn]

Well, it was a joke. I'm a white guy, if there was any confusion.
My name in BMan circles is Gargoyle.
I've been "showing up" for 7 straight years now, but I appreciate the invite.
The line about "uneasiness around too many white people" is a joke.
(unless they're erecting a gasoline-soaked crucifix...)
See...another joke.

I was just trying to insert humor in to this rather unnecessarily heavy subject. It's not a serious matter.
What wasn't a joke is my highly racially/economically mixed/immersed upbringing in Southern Cal. I'm comfortable and used to being proximate to all kinds, simply by experience.

Please, let's lighten up.

Here's the reason certain people don't go to BurningMan:
They don't want to.

[Sobretta Franjipan]

Now you're in trouble too... See you at recess by the swingset, you dum-dum.

Boys, boys. Stop it. Meet me behind the shed and you'll forget all about fighting.

[Sobretta Franjipan]

Hey, just curious for the sake of this particular discussion, is everyone here white?

I'm feeling a little green.

[DVD Burner]

It's really good to see you back Sobretta Franjipan.

[Sobretta Franjipan]

It's really good to see you back Sobretta Franjipan.

Oh gee, thanks. Where's the flushed vagina emoticon? I can't find it.

[VerbenaMaya]

Oh,

and I am still wondering if anyone has a feel for why there are more men than women at burning <ahem> man

I will wager a few factors.

BM is a sizeable investment , alot of people treat it as something they do for themselves, a personal reward worth the money & time. Perhaps it is that less women than men feel themselves to be deserving of such a personal reward. Then there is the courage vs fear factor, esp. for solo women considering personal safety, or just being able to let go of all those years of social conditioning. And there may be less women than men at BM, but in comparison to women in general, burner women exhibit higher levels of self-confidence, self-expression and have more of a sense of self-worth.

[LeChatNoir]

OOP!!!

Sorry dude... Upon rereading that last line I guess it could have seemed sort of obnoxious, huh? I was actually stating that in general (albeit poorly) for anyone who might be lurking this thread and feeling that their color would be a hindrance in attending.

And yeah, I gathered that you were white (like myself) cause you inferred it in your opening lines. If you missed my earlier post about why the “nervous around a lot of white people” perspective is sometimes one I understand, go check it out. Unfortunately I've been in some conditions when it was absolutely no laughing matter.

The line about "uneasiness around too many white people" is a joke.
(unless they're erecting a gasoline-soaked crucifix...)
See...another joke.

Soo... does that mean that a bunch of white guys erecting a gasoline soaked crucifix would actually NOT make you nervous??? Being new to this human form, I'm only just now grasping this concept of what your kind call "Humor".

[stuart]

we use to consider one race, Africa

ummm, not so fast. That's abit of a straw man. I sure don't look at egyptians and moraccans and consider them the same race. Let alone compared to all the myriad types of folks from sub-saharan africa. If what little I know about the migration of peoples out of africa a gazillion years ago holds true then the genetic analysis you are citing seems quite predictable.

So, to track back a few steps, why does the pigment of northern europeans differ from that of east asians and east asians differ from that of sub saharan africans?

[stuart]

I also get what you are saying about the survey bias, but it sure does fall in line with my limited empirical data.

[Stephen Lynn]

(read the following. It may seem long, but never ...honest)

Aahhh...the fun of written sarcasm. Gotten me in more trouble sometimes. But not when folks get to know me, so your sentiments are logical and understood.
Hopefully needless to say, me no likey racism, and it's interesting to note that there have been occasions where some folks, like among the many black people I've been around, dated, or worked with, are at first left questioning. Thing is that I've just been so immersed since childhood in the mix of cultures that I don't maintain the fear of "the other", cuz to me there are no others. I'm rather 'politically incorrect', to use a hackneyed term, and methinks they are not used to one who is comfortable in expressing myself and not detecting barriers; at least none based on race. I'll criticize someone, or an accepted thought, whether they are black or any other color, while many would say,
"You're not supposed to! We have a different set of rules for 'them'"

"Them"? You mean those giant atomic ants in that bad sci-fi movie?

To my mind, there's a soft-racism in being hypersensitive and trepidatious about issues of race.
For example-I find an inherent racism in
employer-demanded "racial/cultural sensitivity training". Sheesh...whatever.
"Let's all tiptoe around those 'other' people so they won't sue us or kill us, because you know how they can get..."

Yes, there are vestiges of true, unmitigated, blind, even violent racism.
Always will be. But, man, it does my heart good to see it so marginalized as to be entirely abhorrant and unthinkable to the vast majority.
While there are many things that cause me dismay about the current MTV-type generation(and I ain't that old...39...youch!), one thing I do rejoice in is the free mixing of colors and cultures.
While it's important to recall the horrifying events of America's racist-motivated past(and I'm a student of it. ask me anything), how terrific it will be when time and history and experience will cause it all to be "forgotten". When a friend is a friend;
a person is a person
And it seems that more often than not it's middle-class, semi-priveleged white people who freak out wayyy more than those who are niether.
I've been well-off, I've been on public assistance. I've lived in good parts of town, I've lived in the worst parts of town.
I've been there; I've seen that.
Believe me, I'm no Pollyanna. Those who know me would laugh at that notion. But I do have a glorious hope that race issues will become vapor soon enough, and we'll get on to targeting issues that actually matter.
One way I can couch it, with a bit more humor(and I'll go ahead and risk it, cuz that's the kind of guy I am):

Let's fuck each other 'til we all look Filipino.

(While I'd like to join in the fun and use one of these swell "Emoticons" to ensure that all will understand the 'spirit' in which my words are given,
..it's just that, well, those damn things are so...gay. [See, that's a joke])

[Stephen Lynn]

Top line was to read:
"(Read the following. It may be long, but never boring...honest.)"
Somehow the "boring" word got eclipsed, which is just my luck.
Rest assured the words I've written are as honest as they come.
I may be hairy, overweight, sometimes obnoxious, and have been known to drink too much...but I'm painfully honest.
Thank you for your time.

[actiongrl]

It is pretty funny to imagine a Burning Man affirmative action program.

I will admit that I got a pang of something positive a few years ago when filmmaker Kevin Epps was talking about his experience at Burning Man and how he wanted to take that ethos and feeling back to Hunter's Point with him and show the kids that there was something more to life than the gangs and crimes life that they mostly were exposed to. We had several conversations about it. But that's still an organic, person-to-person process, and hasn't really as much to do with race as it does economic status in his particular neighborhood. The same story could be told of any person who got riled up about Burning Man, couldn't it?

[notthat1]

I'll add my 2 cents to this

As a man of color, my only *real* concern about going to BM was wondering if there was any Nazi skinhead, KKK types there. I've been told time, and time again that *those* type of people don't / or haven't showen them selfs at the event. So, i'll be going.

As far as the whole "black people don't camp"... , whatever. I'm not the biggest fan of camping, only cause everytime i've gone in the past, i seem to get sick. But that's me. I have an Uncle that we call Grizzly Adams , cause he's a real outdoorsman.

See ya on the Playa.

[Rob the Wop]

I'm not the biggest fan of camping, only cause everytime i've gone in the past, i seem to get sick.

Desert heat and air does wonders for the traditional cold/flu sickness you could get camping in the woods. I've lived in both Colorado and near Death Valley, so I've 'camped' (though we never really called it that in the desert) in both extremes.

The only thing I would say is get used to pounding down tons of water. Get one of those big cheapo plastic tumblers, the 40oz kind. In the morning when you first get up, drink an entire one of those. At lunch pound down another. At dinner pound down another. Before you hit the sack, pound down another. Carry a boda bag or camelback and sip during the day whenever your mouth feels dry. As long as you're properly hydrated, I wouldn't worry too much about getting sick.

[actiongrl]

The oddest part about the "Black folks don't camp" comment my friend made was...he was a black man who I had been camping with.

[lizwiz]

Oh,

and I am still wondering if anyone has a feel for why there are more men than women at burning <ahem> man


I will wager a few factors.

BM is a sizeable investment , alot of people treat it as something they do for themselves, a personal reward worth the money & time. Perhaps it is that less women than men feel themselves to be deserving of such a personal reward. Then there is the courage vs fear factor, esp. for solo women considering personal safety, or just being able to let go of all those years of social conditioning. And there may be less women than men at BM, but in comparison to women in general, burner women exhibit higher levels of self-confidence, self-expression and have more of a sense of self-worth.
_________________


woah!! What a statement. First, let me tell ya about how I heard about BM and how I went my first year (20 years old).

My future roomate Anna e-mailed me and a few other friends saying she was going to this event and wondered if anyone wanted to go with her. I checked out the webpage and immediately decided on going. I had never even heard of it before and it was only a month away. I missed the first week of my last year in college to go. I went with 2 other girlfriends of mine that had never been and one bi guy friend that couldn't resist.

Gender was never an issue or a thought about going. We just wanted to experience all that burning man is.

I had never ever been camping before. BM was my first time. After the my first year, I felt like I could survive anything.

My second year (21 years old), I went alone. I missed the first week of graduate school.

I never doubted I could do it because I went with friends that I trusted. We all took care of ourselves and brought everything we needed just like the survival guide said.

The second year I had friends to see there and became a party of one. In fact, I loved the independence of going by myself because I proved that I could do it and take care of myself. I felt very free. Not to mention the excitement of not telling my parents and pulling it off.

Sure BM costs money, but it is worth it. Even if you don't have any money, you can find a way to do it. you just have to believe that there is a way. My first year's total expenses were under $600. If someone want's to they could probably even do it in less.

The bigger issue I see is people's inability to leave society for a week. I flaunted the issue. What is more impt than the first week of graduate school? I learned more at BM than I would have in school.

i felt like BM was something I just had to do and continue doing. BM is a rare lifetime opportunity. It has no price.

Are there less woman at BM than men? I never noticed in the last 3 years that I have been a difference in population.

I don't think women are worried about personal safety if they are interested in going to BM. they type that are interesed will overcome that immediately.

I think all burners not just women have those last attributes you say in comparison to the rest of the population.

[LeChatNoir]

(read the following. It may seem long, but never ...honest)

HAAAA!!! Now, that’s funny.

Thing is that I've just been so immersed since childhood in the mix of cultures that I don't maintain the fear of "the other", cuz to me there are no others.

Interesting thing there... Where I grew up it was pretty much the opposite. At least in the fact that the culture was predominantly white. Though it was not terribly charged with bigotry, well... at least not violently so. Not like some places I’ve been. Just a lot of white folks in a very rural setting. So once I got out into the rest of the world, it was something of an experience for me. I wound up living (for about 10 years) in a place that was much more diverse than where I was born and there were even *gasp* OPENLY GAY PEOPLE there!! Wow!!! Quite a thing for a small town, southern boy like me. Before I realized it I was getting to know people in all different walks of life. I had always questioned the ways most folks in my place of birth looked at “the others” of the world and this made it easier to meet people different than me... figured I’d rather decide for myself, ya’ know?. But it was still somewhat of an adjustment to actually experience it firsthand. Purging programming in theory is one thing, in practice another. But so far, so good. Quite a long and circuitous path I’m walking to say the least.

but I'm painfully honest.

Only way to be, my friend.

Thank you for your time.

Ehhh... You’re welcome.......................... I guess.



Oh Jeez... More of those damn emoticons. Well... straight as I am, gay guys seem to like me for whatever reason. So I'll just keep on using 'em. In fact... if I had an emoticon of me (as a happy face of course) in a sarong, with an Easter basket, skipping along like a giddy schoolgirl... I'd put it right here------>

Now that would be swell!!

Bet mr. smith could find one.

mr. smith??

[Ron]

.....

ummm, not so fast. That's abit of a straw man. I sure don't look at egyptians and moraccans

That's why I said, "we," and not "you," or "I." "We," as in U.S./western culture and past physical anthropologists. Again, I don't know a thing about your opinions, other than what you tell me. I'm talking about the societal/cultural attitudes about race. As recently as the 1980s Physical Anthropoloy classes taught that North African were Cascuaians, or a subset there of, and everyone south of that were Africans or "Negroid." And that's an attituded that propogated out throughout the culture. And one that's wrong, based on the DNA analsis.

....So, to track back a few steps, why does the pigment of northern europeans differ from that of east asians and east asians differ from that of sub saharan africans?

Because those breeding pools spent enough time in climates featuring different exposure to sunlight to allow some adapation to that climate. And so what? The change in DNA required to make that adpatation pales in comparision to the change in DNA seen in different breeding populations in Africa, each of which had a different environment to adapt to. It's just that those adaptations didn't not produce a difference as easy for us visual primates to see as skin tone.

OK, I answered your question, now how about you answer mine. It was, " By definition, if race is inheritable then members of the same race will have DNA more similiar than members of different races. Are you with me?" Meaning do you understand the point?

Ron

[moshe!]

is why there are so few white people at a ludacris concert!

[DVD Burner]

ludacris!





Yuck.

[theCryptofishist]

I was just trying to insert humor in to this rather unnecessarily heavy subject. It's not a serious matter.
What wasn't a joke is my highly racially/economically mixed/immersed upbringing in Southern Cal. I'm comfortable and used to being proximate to all kinds, simply by experience.

I have an edgy sence of humor and a tendency to make jokes that read as racist as jokes about racism. I've offending people and lost interesting connections that way and am more careful that I have been. This forum is too public and although I have come to respect many posters on this board, I do not trust that it would be okay to skirt as close to the edge publically as my mind does sometimes in private. On the other hand, I do think that jokes about racism can be a good thing. Humor can change minds in such amazing ways. definately a double edged sword though.

[stuart]

I see your point. But you have also made mine to a degree.

those breeding pools spent enough time in climates featuring different exposure to sunlight to allow some adapation to that climate.

The original point was offered as a basis for making a claim on what race was indigenous to a locale. That which has shown characteristics adapted to the region was my response.



We agree that 'race' as it is commonly used it totally inadequte.