What about crying and wailing adults? Rave camps? Generators? I guess none of that bothers anybody.'stine wrote: p.s. one last small picture issue....common courtesy....are nearby campers going to have to endure or resettle their camp somewhere else when... and you know this will happen.... the baby has a long crying and wailing period because he or she is hot or cranky or teething or collicky or just because?
Afternoon napping for babies?
Re: Some serious implications to consider
Medicated and Motivated!
Crying/wailing adults? Call a Ranger because something is most likely wrong and someone needs help. Rave Camps? I got the impression those were posted on the BM map so campers can plan to avoid them if desired. Generators? I'd think you could camp in Hushville if that was your form of annoyance. Perhaps a compromise would be to have parents with children under a certain age group keep to Kidsville so they get the extra support and compassion and patience needed to address the needs of children.
Yes stine, Kidsville is a great place for families. (This will be our fourth year as a member.)
We have infants to teenagers in our village, and yes, parents will find support there. I urge anyone contemplating bringing their children to join the discussion list at [email protected], and to check out our website http://www.burningkids.org
We have a great group of parents who have tons of experience with kids on the playa and who can answer any of your questions.
We have infants to teenagers in our village, and yes, parents will find support there. I urge anyone contemplating bringing their children to join the discussion list at [email protected], and to check out our website http://www.burningkids.org
We have a great group of parents who have tons of experience with kids on the playa and who can answer any of your questions.
Medicated and Motivated!
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
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- Camp Name: Elliot's naked bycycel repair
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Re: Wasn't Asking for your opinions, thanks.
MayaP wrote:- I know I'm a good mother.
- I wasn't asking for your opinion.
- Thanks to the *few* people who actually answered the question.
- There's another thread about "Kids at Burning Man" which *was* soliciting opinions. I'm sure the most self-righteous of you have been compelled to let your opinions be known there *as well*.
- To those of you who defended the possibility that I might actually know what's best for my child, thanks.
- Next time, don't feed the trolls.
/\
Right no there KNow It All. Why don't you just go stuff the kid in a hot car for an hour. BM has stated it is against animal abuse to bring a dog. Maybe we can ask the law to look in on you about child abuse. Where did you say you were seting camp?
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.
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Captain Goddammit
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- Camp Name: First Camp
- Location: Seattle, WA
EXACTLY!! An 11-month-old is going to understand, interpret, and appreciate DICK from Burning Man. There are NO positives to bringing an infant. A baby isn't going to be enlightened about anything or admire any art. Well, maybe YOUR Superbaby will...stuart wrote:what could a baby possibly get from the event?
walking and talking kids I could understand, but a baby? Seems a bit selfish.
For those of you who are chiming in, yet have never BEEN to BRC, the heat isn't all... there is dust. Dust like you probably haven't seen. The kind that reduces visibility to about 10 feet and has people breathing through respirators.
How about you go to Burning Man about 3 or 4 times and see what the weather can do, then try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm just anti-kid. Maybe I'm more pro-kid than you are. I just hate seeing the result of accidental conception being mishandled by people who think that since they now have the title "mommy" they shouldn't listen to anything that others with more experience with the subject at hand have to say.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
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Sobretta Franjipan
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:57 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
A little young
Boy I sure don't want to come off as sour grapes but you do NOT sound ready to bring a baby to the playa. I've been 8 times and have been a daycare worker for kids from 18 months to 5 years old. You sound sweet but woefully unprepared to bring a baby. You want to "avoid" getting a RV? You're not going to "avoid" a lot of work and worry from you when you are trying to get Baby down for a nap in 113 degree weather in your "stellar shade structure" (the fact that you have to ask and don't have a clue worries me) while "All Day All Night Techno Dance Camp" is blasting away across the street. Oh and what's that? Another firecracker or was that a gun?
Cleanliness? Is a relative term on the Playa. My friend Will lifts his arms to air out his armpits and beams about the pleasantries of his "playa shower".
Being "clean" would take up all your time on the playa if that's what you needed.
Do babies "adapt" to dust? Do YOU adapt to 35 m.p.h. windstorms that clog your nose, blind your eyes, whips into your ears, and gives you a nice wheeze? All that with protection ON? In a closed van?
When I think about some of the conditions I've gone through at BM-and I'm a hardass-and then think if I was 11 months old! Sheesh, my tail's between my legs.
Cleanliness? Is a relative term on the Playa. My friend Will lifts his arms to air out his armpits and beams about the pleasantries of his "playa shower".
Being "clean" would take up all your time on the playa if that's what you needed.
Do babies "adapt" to dust? Do YOU adapt to 35 m.p.h. windstorms that clog your nose, blind your eyes, whips into your ears, and gives you a nice wheeze? All that with protection ON? In a closed van?
When I think about some of the conditions I've gone through at BM-and I'm a hardass-and then think if I was 11 months old! Sheesh, my tail's between my legs.
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Captain Goddammit
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Here's a PM to me from AngryKitty25:
The reason I posted what I did is because you gave nothing to the original poster. This thread was for advise on napping and dealing with the extra percautions on bringing a baby. They have already decided to bring their child and have had friends do the same with no problem. So you going and challenging their parenting skills was uncalled for, there was a separate thread about kids and burning man. Parents know their children better than you would and how they will handle the elements, and the original poster said that they have been before, so they obviously know what they are up against.
Maybe if you asked them questions about how they planned on dealing with your concerns about a baby on the playa, they could have shown you just how prepared they are. Its not your decision to make and your post had nothing to do with the questions they were asking, you were just being a dick, like you are in your last post. I don't give a fuck about what you have to say. I wouldn't bring my daughter until I have gone to BM myself and witnessed first hand what it is like and I have told you that before. Maybe I would listen to what more experienced people had to say if they had something constructive to say.
I posted my feelings about your post, you got pissed at what I had to say. I left it alone, I really don't care what you think of me because you don't know shit about me. Maybe if you were so much more wise than me you would have taken out your shit on me in private. I think that would have been more mature since your last bit had nothing to do with what I posted in this thread. I just wonder why you are so emotional on the parenting thing, just because I pissed you off doesn't mean that you should post that last paragraph that you did. Oh well have a nice time talking to yourself. I am done responding to you, I may respond to your advise to others, but not you directly.
Hey MangyKitty25, now I'm going to have to show you why you're out in left field:
Even if someone took their kid before, different years have different dust extremes, it's always a risk, it ISN'T obvious that they know what they're up against.
I DIDN'T attack anyone's parenting ability, just complimented someone's who kept their baby home.
YOUR last post also had nothing to do with afternoon napping for babies. Does that mean you were being a bitch?
YOU seem even more emotional on the parenting thing than me. I think you're hypersensitive to any criticism of parenting choices because of the less-than-ideal situation you are in. (By your own description.)
Cool your jets, and debate your position like a "mature" person.
If you want to directly mud-sling, O.K., go for it.
I'm NOT going to say that, by all accounts, having sex with you is like throwing a hotdog down a hallway...
The reason I posted what I did is because you gave nothing to the original poster. This thread was for advise on napping and dealing with the extra percautions on bringing a baby. They have already decided to bring their child and have had friends do the same with no problem. So you going and challenging their parenting skills was uncalled for, there was a separate thread about kids and burning man. Parents know their children better than you would and how they will handle the elements, and the original poster said that they have been before, so they obviously know what they are up against.
Maybe if you asked them questions about how they planned on dealing with your concerns about a baby on the playa, they could have shown you just how prepared they are. Its not your decision to make and your post had nothing to do with the questions they were asking, you were just being a dick, like you are in your last post. I don't give a fuck about what you have to say. I wouldn't bring my daughter until I have gone to BM myself and witnessed first hand what it is like and I have told you that before. Maybe I would listen to what more experienced people had to say if they had something constructive to say.
I posted my feelings about your post, you got pissed at what I had to say. I left it alone, I really don't care what you think of me because you don't know shit about me. Maybe if you were so much more wise than me you would have taken out your shit on me in private. I think that would have been more mature since your last bit had nothing to do with what I posted in this thread. I just wonder why you are so emotional on the parenting thing, just because I pissed you off doesn't mean that you should post that last paragraph that you did. Oh well have a nice time talking to yourself. I am done responding to you, I may respond to your advise to others, but not you directly.
Hey MangyKitty25, now I'm going to have to show you why you're out in left field:
Even if someone took their kid before, different years have different dust extremes, it's always a risk, it ISN'T obvious that they know what they're up against.
I DIDN'T attack anyone's parenting ability, just complimented someone's who kept their baby home.
YOUR last post also had nothing to do with afternoon napping for babies. Does that mean you were being a bitch?
YOU seem even more emotional on the parenting thing than me. I think you're hypersensitive to any criticism of parenting choices because of the less-than-ideal situation you are in. (By your own description.)
Cool your jets, and debate your position like a "mature" person.
If you want to directly mud-sling, O.K., go for it.
I'm NOT going to say that, by all accounts, having sex with you is like throwing a hotdog down a hallway...
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
[quote="Captain Goddammit] An 11-month-old is going to understand, interpret, and appreciate DICK from Burning Man.[/quote]
I was raised by travelling, social type people. From the time i was weeks old i was in a car, at some crazy camp site, surrounded by noise, etc, whatever. It was how my parents chose to raise me. They raised four of us that way, and a couple dogs. Four of us who pretty much never fought amongst each other, always cooperated, never threw tantrums, always treated our parents with respect, and who expected every day of our lives to be treated with that same respect. It's a lifestyle. Maybe it sounds scary and risky, but it is a lifestyle. It doesn't have to be about what is good for the kid at any certain age -- it's about the family unit travelling together.
My family travel adventures were *nowhere* close to the extremes of burning man, but i could easily see myself taking my future kids into strange environments like that. Burning Man is not just a party. All that rave crap and the drugs and stuff.... it really isn't all that hard to side-step and ignore, if you choose to. Some people actually go out there for the art and community. Those folks are easy to find.
Which leaves the weather as the big issue. And honestly, how sheltered are you that you think modern man and woman can't properly support a baby in the desert? It is certainly doable, if you can handle the complications. Families have been doing it for ages. And if a family chooses to travel together instead of bunking the babes with others, that should be their choice.
There will always be sucky parents. Some of them will take their kids to the desert. Hopefully, most of the folks we see out there actually have their shit together.
I was raised by travelling, social type people. From the time i was weeks old i was in a car, at some crazy camp site, surrounded by noise, etc, whatever. It was how my parents chose to raise me. They raised four of us that way, and a couple dogs. Four of us who pretty much never fought amongst each other, always cooperated, never threw tantrums, always treated our parents with respect, and who expected every day of our lives to be treated with that same respect. It's a lifestyle. Maybe it sounds scary and risky, but it is a lifestyle. It doesn't have to be about what is good for the kid at any certain age -- it's about the family unit travelling together.
My family travel adventures were *nowhere* close to the extremes of burning man, but i could easily see myself taking my future kids into strange environments like that. Burning Man is not just a party. All that rave crap and the drugs and stuff.... it really isn't all that hard to side-step and ignore, if you choose to. Some people actually go out there for the art and community. Those folks are easy to find.
Which leaves the weather as the big issue. And honestly, how sheltered are you that you think modern man and woman can't properly support a baby in the desert? It is certainly doable, if you can handle the complications. Families have been doing it for ages. And if a family chooses to travel together instead of bunking the babes with others, that should be their choice.
There will always be sucky parents. Some of them will take their kids to the desert. Hopefully, most of the folks we see out there actually have their shit together.
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Captain Goddammit
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- Camp Name: First Camp
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I've got a dust-free airconditioned RV and could get a baby out of a dust storm in it... sure it's doable... but a tent in a dust storm would suck (remember '01?) and,
...oh screw it, bring the unfortunate little dude. I tried to stand up for the kid and keep someone from putting it through a harsh, bad time that he/she will get no benefit from, but it's your kid, torture all you want.
...oh screw it, bring the unfortunate little dude. I tried to stand up for the kid and keep someone from putting it through a harsh, bad time that he/she will get no benefit from, but it's your kid, torture all you want.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
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technopatra
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- Contact:
Babies exist just fine in desert environments all over the world. Even during dust storms They just require extra care and attention, which is not only possible but probable, and has been proven year after year by the fine folks at Kidsville.
Let's not assume that parents come to Burning Man with the same plans as single folks. They are well aware of their responsibilities. I would like to commend the folks who had the foresight to ask for help and advice, and I'm just a little bummed that so many folks decided to jump all over them for doing so.
Assuming that a parent is neglectful or selfish by bringing their baby is like assuming all bar cars are run by assholes who just want to barter drinks for blowjobs, or assuming that all ravers are idiots on E. While hyperbole makes for a fine flame, it is just not accurate.
p.s. It is absolutely, totally wrong to post PM's publicly without the permission of the original poster, both ethically and according to the TOS.
Captain, I'm going to bop you on the head publicly rather than give you an official warning, but know that if Angrykittie decided to make a formal complaint, your posting privileges could be suspended.
I know this is a heated topic. The anti-bringing-baby contingent is expressing a deep-seated and not entirely unwarranted fear for the safety of the children. The pro-bringing-baby folks have some actual first-hand experience with bringing babies. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions.
Let's show each other a little more respect, ok?
Let's not assume that parents come to Burning Man with the same plans as single folks. They are well aware of their responsibilities. I would like to commend the folks who had the foresight to ask for help and advice, and I'm just a little bummed that so many folks decided to jump all over them for doing so.
Assuming that a parent is neglectful or selfish by bringing their baby is like assuming all bar cars are run by assholes who just want to barter drinks for blowjobs, or assuming that all ravers are idiots on E. While hyperbole makes for a fine flame, it is just not accurate.
p.s. It is absolutely, totally wrong to post PM's publicly without the permission of the original poster, both ethically and according to the TOS.
Captain, I'm going to bop you on the head publicly rather than give you an official warning, but know that if Angrykittie decided to make a formal complaint, your posting privileges could be suspended.
I know this is a heated topic. The anti-bringing-baby contingent is expressing a deep-seated and not entirely unwarranted fear for the safety of the children. The pro-bringing-baby folks have some actual first-hand experience with bringing babies. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions.
Let's show each other a little more respect, ok?
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unjonharley
- Posts: 10434
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- Location: Salem Or.
technopatra wrote:Babies exist just fine in desert environments all over the world. Even during dust storms They just require extra care and attention, which is not only possible but probable, and has been proven year after year by the fine folks at Kidsville.
Let's not assume that parents come to Burning Man with the same plans as single folks. They are well aware of their responsibilities. I would like to commend the folks who had the foresight to ask for help and advice, and I'm just a little bummed that so many folks decided to jump all over them for doing so.
Assuming that a parent is neglectful or selfish by bringing their baby is like assuming all bar cars are run by assholes who just want to barter drinks for blowjobs, or assuming that all ravers are idiots on E. While hyperbole makes for a fine flame, it is just not accurate.
p.s. It is absolutely, totally wrong to post PM's publicly without the permission of the original poster, both ethically and according to the TOS.
Captain, I'm going to bop you on the head publicly rather than give you an official warning, but know that if Angrykittie decided to make a formal complaint, your posting privileges could be suspended.
I know this is a heated topic. The anti-bringing-baby contingent is expressing a deep-seated and not entirely unwarranted fear for the safety of the children. The pro-bringing-baby folks have some actual first-hand experience with bringing babies. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions.
Let's show each other a little more respect, ok?
/\
I see you as useing your position for your own agenda in this post.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.
I was raised by travelling, social type people. From the time i was weeks old i was in a car, at some crazy camp site, surrounded by noise, etc, whatever. It was how my parents chose to raise me. They raised four of us that way, and a couple dogs. Four of us who pretty much never fought amongst each other, always cooperated, never threw tantrums, always treated our parents with respect, and who expected every day of our lives to be treated with that same respect. It's a lifestyle. Maybe it sounds scary and risky, but it is a lifestyle. It doesn't have to be about what is good for the kid at any certain age -- it's about the family unit travelling together.girlie wrote:[quote="Captain Goddammit] An 11-month-old is going to understand, interpret, and appreciate DICK from Burning Man.
My family travel adventures were *nowhere* close to the extremes of burning man, but i could easily see myself taking my future kids into strange environments like that. Burning Man is not just a party. All that rave crap and the drugs and stuff.... it really isn't all that hard to side-step and ignore, if you choose to. Some people actually go out there for the art and community. Those folks are easy to find.
Which leaves the weather as the big issue. And honestly, how sheltered are you that you think modern man and woman can't properly support a baby in the desert? It is certainly doable, if you can handle the complications. Families have been doing it for ages. And if a family chooses to travel together instead of bunking the babes with others, that should be their choice.
There will always be sucky parents. Some of them will take their kids to the desert. Hopefully, most of the folks we see out there actually have their shit together.[/quote]
yes well that is all fine and dandy but that is a LIFE STYLE CHOICE. Unless they do this A LOT, this is just one week ( give or take ) out of the year.. BIG difference
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DVD Burner
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Tiahaar
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sigh...so how did this (the entire post):
So as far as anyone of anyage on the playa...if you are fit and prepared chances are you will survive and grow, if you aren't there are increased chances you won't. Same with any life anywhere. Since I am single with no kids yet (have nephews and nieces to spoil) my advice comes from what my camping family did when I was young: lots of small trips leading to bigger more challenging camps/hikes leading up to the major week+ backcountry treks. There should be a whole lot of ramp-up prep outings I would think for youngsters before being brought to Burning Man.
lead to this very next:Captain Goddammit wrote:At gramma's house would be good.
I have some campmates with a young baby. They made arrangements with gramma this year... last year that wasn't an option, so they DIDN'T GO TO BM. But then, they are good parents.
Seems this fight was carried over from other threads.angrykittie25 wrote:I think that was quite out of line. Who says that taking a baby to burning man makes someone a bad parent. If they make proper arrangements and find out things ahead of time, which it seems to be what they are doing. Now if they just took their baby to BM and said, "well just have to see how she does and improvise on how to take care of her out here." Then they may have questionable parenting skills. But I see no reason why a baby cannot grow up going to burning man and being exposed to so much diversity, as long as you take care of your child.
Captain Goddammit, why do you have such issues with parenting? And are quick to jump on someone when they mention their child? Finding a babysitter is not always possible, as we have disscussed before, but just because they decide to include their baby in their trip to burning man, in no way makes them bad parents.
Sorry, but this just pushed my buttons.
So as far as anyone of anyage on the playa...if you are fit and prepared chances are you will survive and grow, if you aren't there are increased chances you won't. Same with any life anywhere. Since I am single with no kids yet (have nephews and nieces to spoil) my advice comes from what my camping family did when I was young: lots of small trips leading to bigger more challenging camps/hikes leading up to the major week+ backcountry treks. There should be a whole lot of ramp-up prep outings I would think for youngsters before being brought to Burning Man.
Burning Man 2003-25; Desert Carillon, HypnoHorse, Ulaume's Chimes, Iron Native, Black Rock Solar, Portal Collective, Center Camp Café Stage and Sound Tech, 747 Project
Starship Palomino
Starship Palomino
This will my kids fourth year and they're happy and healthy. I also know of kids that have been attending much longer, and there's nothing wrong with them.stuart wrote:I know I am going to get smacked for this, but you can not accurately make that claim TP.has been proven year after year by the fine folks at Kidsville.
Not unless there has been some longitudinal study done on these kids checking into things like resperatory illness and perhaps mental health.
Medicated and Motivated!
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unjonharley
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theCryptofishist
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Cause and effect or effect and cause? If the kids have it, the parents may have had it. If the parents had it it might have been a factor in their choice of lifestyle. Maybe travel was the saving grace that kept the 4th "sane."unjonharley wrote:Noticed that a couple people have stated the ywere parented by nomad types. I know the childern of two familys that lived the same as above. Three of the four kids are aflicted with by-polor.
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typewriter
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DeadlyKungFu
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unjonharley
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girlie wrote:
Which leaves the weather as the big issue. And honestly, how sheltered are you that you think modern man and woman can't properly support a baby in the desert? It is certainly doable, if you can handle the complications. Families have been doing it for ages. And if a family chooses to travel together instead of bunking the babes with others, that should be their choice.
/\
If your refering to desert tribes and such. I have a little news for you. The death rate for babys is in the 80+% range. The exposure to the elaments is the # one reason. If they make it the first year tere chances of dieing in the next five years are just as great as the onE- babys
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.
Where do you get your information???unjonharley wrote:girlie wrote:
Which leaves the weather as the big issue. And honestly, how sheltered are you that you think modern man and woman can't properly support a baby in the desert? It is certainly doable, if you can handle the complications. Families have been doing it for ages. And if a family chooses to travel together instead of bunking the babes with others, that should be their choice.
/\
If your refering to desert tribes and such. I have a little news for you. The death rate for babys is in the 80+% range. The exposure to the elaments is the # one reason. If they make it the first year tere chances of dieing in the next five years are just as great as the onE- babys
Medicated and Motivated!
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technopatra
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The word agenda is a funny one to me, as there is an implication that there is some sort of personal gain, some sort of specifically desired end, and usually an inferred nefariousness.unjonharley wrote:
/\
I see you as useing your position for your own agenda in this post.
The kids debate has been around a long time, and the event simply will not begin to disallow children. That is a fact. The folks at Kidsville are really good at taking care fo their kids. That is a personal observation.
So if by agenda you mean to offer new (to some) information and perspective than what I'd read so far, and encourage respectful discourse, then yes, I happily and openly use my position to promote that agenda.
If you wish to comment further on admin/opinions, I already started a thread in the Eplaya Feedback section that covers that topic and would be happy to hear your full thoughts on the matter there.
OK now back to kids.
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technopatra
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No I'm not going to smack you. I enjoy your penchant for quantitative cites. I can only say that this was an anecdotal statement based on my own experience camping next to Kidsville, and being party to a few conversations around the safety of children and the general rockstardom of the Kidsville organizers with some of the staff here at the Burning Man office.stuart wrote:I know I am going to get smacked for this, but you can not accurately make that claim TP.has been proven year after year by the fine folks at Kidsville.
Not unless there has been some longitudinal study done on these kids checking into things like resperatory illness and perhaps mental health.
Damn, I wish I had had parents like them. Seriously.
I know a couple of little Burners who are really amazing people, and I can only surmise that some of their sparkle can be attributed being at the event and being properly cared for by their parents. It is my belief that even those to young to understand the event as we do still feel and respond to the energy there and that overall it is a good thing.
I'd say that what I see at Burning Man is, in fact, 90% kid-friendly and that the other 10% is still less harmful than what's on television. But then again I officially got bored with sex camps in 2001, so I'm not looking for it..