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can't sit still
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Post by can't sit still » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:51 am

":sitting in bank vaults, doing absolutely nothing."
Not true,,, it's collecting interest :D
Like you said, it might as well be concrete. That's why I prefer M3. That's why GOV quit publishing M3. M3 shows how much money is "working" in the economy.
Mac n Mae are going off a cliff. There's hardly mention of FHA. It took over for Mac n Mae and is in equally bad shape.
The banks aren't loaning to anyone because they don't expect anyone to have the ability to repay farther down the road. That says a lot about the expected future velocity of money.
I've been to Belize. I wouldn't dream of moving there. I had originally planned to go to Chile. Great place. But, there are several people here who I want to kook out for. So, I bought farmland on a river in an out of the way place.
I guess we have to agree to disagree on both gold and M3.
If you get off the plane in Belize, you aren't likely to find a job. That's true of most countries. Bring gold and they'll be happy to see you.

The bond buyers have had enough of socialistic BS. In Europe, they're demanding an end to stimulus and the dole. They can be expected to do the same here.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e25766.htm
Bernanke told congress that it must cut the deficit.
The FED managed to dodge the bullet of an audit. What would happen to the FED if it refused to monetize the debt? Refused to buy treasury bonds?
Congress is playing extend and pretend. Cutting the deficit means NOT bailing out Calif or any other state. It's likely that congress wants to extend and pretend until after the November elections. The indications are that it won't have that opportunity.

Ca will have the opportunity to default on it's bonds OR cutoff the safety net.

Here's some interesting numbers that I just ran across;
"I asked Sinclair when will the dollar start plunging? He said, “The time horizon, I think, is four months.â€
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Post by geekster » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:41 am

[quote]"I asked Sinclair when will the dollar start plunging? He said, “The time horizon, I think, is four months.â€
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Post by Trishntek » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:18 pm

There's not much that I disagree with other than the value of the dollar as compared to other economies. The problem is, the dollar, like many other moneys in the world, is on crutches built with borrowed money. If the Fed increases the interest rate, we won't have to worry about its value. Public debt will consume itself and all there will be are tangibles. Like the guy on the movie "2012" who got the airplane for "a valuable watch". I hope I'm wrong!
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Post by can't sit still » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:00 pm

It's a difficult situation to ponder. The worldwide currency inflation should cause price inflation. The crash of the producing economy [supply and demand] is causing price deflation,, in some areas. The low interest rates should cause growth and inflation. The economy is so exhausted,,, the consumer so broke that there isn't any growth.
The mortgage market doesn't have the chance of a snowball in hell. The re-written mortgages are failing at 50 %. We're still building hundreds of thousands of new houses. Don't the banks and builders have any conception of supply and demand?
The price of a house MUST be commensurate with the wages in the same area. It's painfully obvious that aggregate wages are falling.

The banks are holding non-performing loans off the books. They're hoping to amortize and spread them out like they did with the Latin America default. Don't they have any conception of the enormity of the total loss? Actually, they know very well. That's why they had the Basel accord watered down. It would have required everything to come out in the open.

When the interest rates climb, it will knock the snot out of the economy.
When the U.S. GOV defaults, it will knock the crap out of the economy.
When the banks fail it will shut down most commerce for a while.

All the currencies are devaluing. That should put upward pressure on commodities. So many countries are dependent on resource sales that they put downward pressure on commodity prices.
The dollar supply is deflating,,, wages are deflating,, consumer demand is deflating,,, commodity demand is deflating. If interest rates and / or oil price go up, that will kill demand and the economy. That will cause deflation.
There is a distinct possibility that deflated prices will go so low that producers will stop producing. We've already see where farmers dump their crops instead of selling them. That would cut down supply. There wouldn't be much motivation to increase production because the speculators make all the money not the farmers.
We could reach the point where the farmers don't have the credit or motivation to plant.

There are so many pressures from so many angles that it is difficult for me to see a likely outcome.
"
Albert Edwards from Societe Generale says the Atlantic region is one accident away from outright deflation - that 9th Circle of Hell, "abandon all hope, ye who enter." Such an accident may be coming. The ECRI leading indicator for the US economy has fallen at the most precipitous rate for half a century, dropping to a 45-week low. The latest reading is -5.70, the level it reached in late-2007 just as Wall Street began to roll over and then crash. Neither the Fed nor the US Treasury were then aware that the US economy was already in recession. The official growth models were wildly wrong. "

This will hold true for revenue models also. Where do you think that that leads?
Huge GOV layoffs.
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Post by can't sit still » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:50 pm

Here's a list of 50 facets of the recovery;
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archiv ... to-believe
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Post by 1durphul » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:08 pm

@geekster

clearly the answer is to make hammers the new money supply.

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Post by 1durphul » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:40 pm

While I'm none to happy with Obama, you seem to be forgetting that the Bush administration set the policy on TARP distribution.

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Post by geekster » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:39 am

What was Geithner's job during the Bush administration? And what input did Geithner have in changing the focus of TARP? Do some digging around, the information is out there.


Also, Bush only used a portion of the TARP money. Obama used the rest. It was, I believe, not the intention for TARP to be used to purchase General Motors for the UAW. Nor was it the intention of TARP to be poured practically in total into bank reserves. Yes, clearly SOME amount into bank reserves was required. But all of it? Now go back and look at Obama donations from these banks. How did Obama in his short time in the Senate become the second all time recipient of donations from the mortgage bankers? How did Obama in the last 5 years rack up more in donations from the mortgage bankers than Dodd? Think maybe they knew this was coming?

Oh, and check this out:

http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2010/06/23 ... ort-trade/

I agree with this guy. Looks like a typical "head and shoulders" top and there will probably be a "dead cat bounce" in the 4th quarter.
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Post by Trishntek » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:45 am

1durphul wrote:While I'm none to happy with Obama, you seem to be forgetting that the Bush administration set the policy on TARP distribution.
Who gives a rats ass who's to blame! It's all of D.C.! And it started long before we were born!
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Post by geekster » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:07 am

It started in the Carter administration, was bolstered during the Clinton administration. Bush started attempting to reign it in beginning in April 2001 when he sent the first people to the Senate to attempt to get legislation passed to tighten up regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac but the Republicans didn't have enough seats to get the bill to a vote. They warned that the damage from the mortgage industry could become systemic to the entire financial system but the Democrats (Barney Frank in particular) said that it was "scaremongering" and a "figment of the imagination of the Republicans".

The video if the testimony is out there.

Geithner was key in allowing this crisis to snowball because he made a ruling during the Bush administration that allowed AIG's default insurance to be regulated not by the banking people, but by the savings and loan people because since the loans were guaranteed by the US Government, they were "riskless".

The long story is here (note, Geithner's version of events):

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 04882.html

The entertaining story is here:



Video timeline is here:



More softshoe here:



(note the reference to Jamie Gorelick at around 7 minutes. She is currently representing BP. There is a reason she is called The Mistress of Disaster.)

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... aster.html

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... hired.html
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:37 am

"How did Obama in the last 5 years rack up more in donations from the mortgage bankers than Dodd?"
Charisma ??? :D :D :D

The U.S. was considered the bottomless piggybank to be plundered without limit. Bankers have always been the problem. Roosevelt thought about nationalizing them. They said that they would get in line and help the country. WW II was their answer. It gave us much more market share.
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Post by 1durphul » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:05 am

Trishntek wrote:
1durphul wrote:While I'm none to happy with Obama, you seem to be forgetting that the Bush administration set the policy on TARP distribution.
Who gives a rats ass who's to blame! It's all of D.C.! And it started long before we were born!
It is really telling that a one line post from me correcting the record is what you respond to, where as geeksters 3 or 4 previous posts laying the blame for this mess on a man who's been in office for 18 months doesn't make you so much as blink.

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Post by 1durphul » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:35 am

geekster wrote:It started in the Carter administration, was bolstered during the Clinton administration.
You're referencing the laws that made loans available to moderate and low income individuals. Unfortunately you're speaking in half truths. Those laws (Democrat), quadrupled by bank deregulation (Republican) are what brought us to where we are today.
geekster wrote: Bush started attempting to reign it in beginning in April 2001 when he sent the first people to the Senate to attempt to get legislation passed to tighten up regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac but the Republicans didn't have enough seats to get the bill to a vote.


Bush was in office for 8 years, and for 4 of those years (108th and 109th congress) had Republican majorities in both congress and the senate, and enjoyed a 107th congress with a Republican majority. He must have really placed a huge priority on fixing that terrible law letting poor people own their homes. I mean, he was a Republican, so of course he could do no wrong in the eyes of Hannity and Limbaugh who you seem to get your information from.



geekster wrote: They warned that the damage from the mortgage industry could become systemic to the entire financial system but the Democrats (Barney Frank in particular) said that it was "scaremongering" and a "figment of the imagination of the Republicans".


And once again, the Republican majority in all of it's soothe saying infinite wisdom that can predict the future with such amazing accuracy as to know the pitfalls of everything a Democrat does before the Democrat has even thought it, somehow, with TOTAL Republican control of all three branches of government for four years, failed to make fixing something that "could become systemic to entire financial system" a priority. Huh.

geekster wrote:
Geithner was key in allowing this crisis to snowball because he made a ruling during the Bush administration that allowed AIG's default insurance to be regulated not by the banking people, but by the savings and loan people because since the loans were guaranteed by the US Government, they were "riskless".
l
But... but... loans to poor people was IMPORTANT to the Republicans. This was something that could destroy the entire universe. Poor people owning their homes, god forbid! Clearly the way to deal with poor people owning their own homes is to let the banks be completely deregulated. It makes PERFECT sense... if you're Republican.

Geekster if you want to turn this into a debate about party politics, go right ahead, unfortunately facts and history are not on your party's side. While the Democrats deserve some blame, 8 years of Bush, and 4 years of completely corrupt Republican control of all three branches of government sent quite a signal to ALL corporate entities that they could act with complete disregard to federal laws, regulations, and regulators.

Unfortunately for conservatives their ideas and theories NEVER stand up to nuance, complexity, facts, or even history. They are always broad generalizations that suppose a perfect universe of moral and ethical rich people, filled with immoral, unethical, and criminal poor people. Now, I suspect that if I were to provide you with nuanced counter arguments to whatever your over simplified counter argument is going to be you would dismiss it without even having read it or considered it.

Or if your like Trishntek you'll just realize you can't win on that point and then move onto your next right wing radio parrot comment. Which once again I'll provide an example where ANY sort of complexity makes that conservative view point fall apart, and then move on yet again to the NEXT conservative talking point. Where once again...

So if you want to start a debate that you'll lose from the start, please do. I've always enjoyed kicking somebody while they're down. I am not going to be a cowardly Democrat and concede to your right wing nuttery. I'll leave that sort of cowardice to the Democratic party. I fight. So make a choice, prepare to have your ass kicked by the complexity and nuance that your ideology can't withstand, or recognize ahead of time that you'll be exposed to facts, and ideas that you clearly don't want to hear.


In summary: shut the fuck up about Obama and how he has somehow retroactively traveled back in time to 2007 when this crisis started and passed dictatorial edicts from his time machine.

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Post by Trishntek » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:57 am

1durphul- if anyone is being partisan it is YOU!

I've said all along the gubmint has been going down this road for decades! The mess we currently find ourselves in did not happen overnight; nor did it happen this decade. The loss of states rights after the Civil War had something to do with it. The land grab of the gubmint in the late 1800's had something to do with it. Taylorism in the early 1900's had something to do with it. The election of Senators by popular vote instead of State Legislative vote had something to do with it. The establishment of the FED had something to do with it. The founding of the United Nations had something to do with it. The mishandling of the "Great Depression" had something to do with it. WWII had something to do with it. And the list goes on,,,
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Post by geekster » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:20 am

Using mortgage loans as a social engineering tool is a stupid idea. And this is extremely political as it was done by a government agency and such extremes were pushed by one political party while another political party (neither of which I belong to) tried for some 7 years to reign in while the other party blocked these attempts at increased regulation to the extent that they insulted any regulator attempting to bring it to their attention. Don't get me wrong, neither of the major parties are "innocent" in this. But one was certainly interested in tighter regulation while the other side was repeatedly crowing about what "a fine job" they were doing.

And as "shut the fuck up" appears to be the standard way one of the parties handles any light being brought on the subject, I suspect your views might be more partisan. Obama could not possibly do anything more to ruin this economy. Every single time I see him presented with a choice, he seems to choose the path that does greatest harm or has the potential to cause greatest harm.

Maybe he should have a look at the Canadian government mortgage guarantee agencies and how they do things.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04024.html

They don't use their government backed mortgages for social tinkering. They don't put political cronies in charge of these agencies and authorize exorbitant bonuses so they can line their pockets with millions of dollars. Canada doesn't put quotas on loans that cause the lenders to scrape the bottom of the barrel to meet them.

And yet, Barny Frank to this day lives in denial and believes that the old ways should continue. The Democrats are, I believe, set the face epic defeat in November across the nation at federal, state, and local levels. They have run the cupboard dry at all levels of government by being irresponsible with the people's money.
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Post by 1durphul » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:23 am

Trishntek wrote:1durphul- if anyone is being partisan it is YOU!
While I used to be a Democrat I no longer consider myself one. I would hate to be considered a member of the party of cowards.

I do however have no problem telling people where they can shove their inaccurate right wing talking points, that doesn't make me partisan. It just makes me irritable. :-)

I also hate bullies, and that's how the right wing talking heads work, since facts don't work for them. I, unlike the Democrats, am not willing to let lies, inaccuracies, and fallacies go by unchallenged.
Trishntek wrote:I've said all along the gubmint has been going down this road for decades! The mess we currently find ourselves in did not happen overnight; nor did it happen this decade. The loss of states rights after the Civil War had something to do with it. The land grab of the gubmint in the late 1800's had something to do with it. Taylorism in the early 1900's had something to do with it. The election of Senators by popular vote instead of State Legislative vote had something to do with it. The establishment of the FED had something to do with it. The founding of the United Nations had something to do with it. The mishandling of the "Great Depression" had something to do with it. WWII had something to do with it. And the list goes on,,,
Well said Trishntek.

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Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:36 am

Can we as a country ever again be constructive instead of destructive?
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

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Post by 1durphul » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:44 am

FIGJAM wrote:Can we as a country ever again be constructive instead of destructive?
Yes, probably, if the south tries to leave the union again and we don't try to keep them.

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Post by 1durphul » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:03 am

Back to the discussion of socialized medicine (going back to it because this came up today.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/2 ... 24248.html

Once you add in complexity, corporations do NOT do a better job of providing health care.

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Post by 1durphul » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:06 am

geekster wrote: Obama could not possibly do anything more to ruin this economy. Every single time I see him presented with a choice, he seems to choose the path that does greatest harm or has the potential to cause greatest harm.
I couldn't agree more, it is hard to make something worse when it has hit bottom before you were put in charge of it.

So, since you insist on bashing Obama, I'll wait here while you take the time to write up a reply listing every "bad thing" he has done since taking office. It shouldn't take long, he hasn't really done much at all since taking office. And please, draw some causal relationships while you're at it to support why it is a "bad thing."

I'm very curious if you can even compile such a list, I don't think you can. I'm darn near certain you're just parroting right wing radio/blog personalities.

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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:55 pm

Here's a good paper,, if I can get the link right;
http://c1.libsyn.com/media/18706/erste- ... 856778b21e
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Post by geekster » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:27 pm

I couldn't agree more, it is hard to make something worse when it has hit bottom before you were put in charge of it.
If that were the case, maybe. But the guy has been in office for 18 months now, continuing to blame Bush just isn't going to work anymore. At some point he actually has to produce results. He isn't. He is going backwards. US housing starts lowest ever since they have been recorded, down 33% in a single month? Why? Because of his idiotic tax credit that pushed sales up early and then expired resulting in all the buyers who would normally be buying now having already bought. If you are going to make some brilliant move like that, you slowly phase out the credit over time, you don't just cut it off. Who is advising this guy? Anyone with high school economics should be able to do better than this.

The Bush boogie man is fading fast. Hell, I heard some "journalist" on TV today claiming that the whole McCrystal thing in Afghanistan was just one more leftover thing from the Bush Administration that Obama had to deal with. Anyone with half a brain knows Obama fired the Bush commander in Afghanistan and personally put McCrystal in that position. But you see, the "push" media wants to keep that meme going that everything is the fault of the "Bush Administration". I suppose it is easier to run on faults of your opponent (real and imagined) when you have no positive attributes of your own.

Anyway, the mortgage crises was not caused by "wall street greed" or the "Bush Administration". The Bush administration spent nearly 7 years trying to avert exactly what happened. The mortgage crisis was caused by idiotic policy by the Democratic Party starting with the Community Reinvestment Act. It culminated in cronies being placed in positions raking in literally millions of dollars while Congressional Democrats (the Senate in particular) blocked any Republican attempt to fix the problem. All they while they were placing quotas on the lenders that FORCED them to lend to people who couldn't afford the loans because the quotas were percentage based of the total. If the requirement is that 50% of your loans must go to "non-traditional borrowers", it can get pretty hard to find them and the longer time goes, the more "non-traditional" you need to get in order to meet the quotas. It's just nuts!

But in any case, the Democrats have completely run out of excuses. They have the majority in the house. They had held a supermajority of the Senate for filibuster-proof legislating until Massachusetts elected a Republican . They had a Democratic President. What do they do? Pass more economy busting crap that is going to drive the financial system in the dirt. Now they want, what, 50 billion dollars in another "stimulus" bill that does nothing but pay off their public service union donors. This is after the first "stimulus" did nothing by employ people at stimulus road sign manufacturers.

Dude, I can see November from my house and it is NOT looking good. I am not "bashing Obama", he is doing a pretty good job of screwing himself. So far he looks to be in way over his head. He isn't a leader. He is an academic. He has never managed anything in his life. He has absolutely no experience at anything and simply repeats rhetoric he has read from books. He has no idea what he is doing. His ass and both his hands are complete strangers. This guy makes Carter look like a wiz kid.

I am not a Democrat, I am not a Republican. I am not buying this "Bush Administration" crap anymore. It is time for Obama to put up or shut up. So far I am not seeing anything.
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Post by 1durphul » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:35 am

geekster wrote:
I couldn't agree more, it is hard to make something worse when it has hit bottom before you were put in charge of it.
If that were the case, maybe. But the guy has been in office for 18 months now, continuing to blame Bush just isn't going to work anymore. At some point he actually has to produce results. He isn't. He is going backwards. US housing starts lowest ever since they have been recorded, down 33% in a single month? Why? Because of his idiotic tax credit that pushed sales up early and then expired resulting in all the buyers who would normally be buying now having already bought. If you are going to make some brilliant move like that, you slowly phase out the credit over time, you don't just cut it off. Who is advising this guy? Anyone with high school economics should be able to do better than this.
That was congress, not Obama. So I'm still waiting for you to list even one thing Obama has done as President in the past 18 months that made things worse. But even if you did list one thing it wouldn't be enough to hang the current situation on him. So please, make a list, and include some causality relationships of action to effect.

In addition Bush and his party's deregulated banks dug a very deep hole for Obama to dig out of. So yes, I can still blame Bush for our current predicament, since it started, gained momentum, and continued downward through out the last two years of his presidency. I know your head is full of talk radio bullshit, but the reality is that Obama has managed to stop the downward momentum for now. He is still in Bush's hole though, even if he can see above the rim now.

geekster wrote:

The Bush boogie man is fading fast. Hell, I heard some "journalist" on TV today claiming that the whole McCrystal thing in Afghanistan was just one more leftover thing from the Bush Administration that Obama had to deal with. Anyone with half a brain knows Obama fired the Bush commander in Afghanistan and personally put McCrystal in that position. But you see, the "push" media wants to keep that meme going that everything is the fault of the "Bush Administration". I suppose it is easier to run on faults of your opponent (real and imagined) when you have no positive attributes of your own.
Not sure where you were going with the McChrystal thing. I do gotta say that I really enjoy not living under a military dictatorship, and think it is appropriate for a President to dismiss top brass when they start showing contempt for civilian leadership.
geekster wrote: Anyway, the mortgage crises was not caused by "wall street greed" ...
Wow that is some reimagining of history.
geekster wrote:... or the "Bush Administration". The Bush administration spent nearly 7 years trying to avert exactly what happened. The mortgage crisis was caused by idiotic policy by the Democratic Party starting with the Community Reinvestment Act. It culminated in cronies being placed in positions raking in literally millions of dollars while Congressional Democrats (the Senate in particular) blocked any Republican attempt to fix the problem. All they while they were placing quotas on the lenders that FORCED them to lend to people who couldn't afford the loans because the quotas were percentage based of the total. If the requirement is that 50% of your loans must go to "non-traditional borrowers", it can get pretty hard to find them and the longer time goes, the more "non-traditional" you need to get in order to meet the quotas. It's just nuts!
What congress did had nothing to do with Obama. And if Bush and the repubs were trying so hard they probably could've managed it during the 108th and 109th congress when they controlled all three branches of gov't.
geekster wrote: But in any case, the Democrats have completely run out of excuses. They have the majority in the house. They had held a supermajority of the Senate for filibuster-proof legislating until Massachusetts elected a Republican . They had a Democratic President. What do they do? Pass more economy busting crap that is going to drive the financial system in the dirt. Now they want, what, 50 billion dollars in another "stimulus" bill that does nothing but pay off their public service union donors. This is after the first "stimulus" did nothing by employ people at stimulus road sign manufacturers.
Please, specifics. You're on and on about "Democrat this" and "Democrats that" but you never state what this and that is.
geekster wrote: Dude, I can see November from my house and it is NOT looking good. I am not "bashing Obama", he is doing a pretty good job of screwing himself. So far he looks to be in way over his head. He isn't a leader. He is an academic. He has never managed anything in his life. He has absolutely no experience at anything and simply repeats rhetoric he has read from books. He has no idea what he is doing. His ass and both his hands are complete strangers. This guy makes Carter look like a wiz kid.

I am not a Democrat, I am not a Republican. I am not buying this "Bush Administration" crap anymore. It is time for Obama to put up or shut up. So far I am not seeing anything.
Well it is too bad that right wing radio, Republicans, and the tea baggers started their smear campaign at the exact moment in American history when we could have really used a strong leader to push through actual changes. Obama wasn't even in office before Hannity and his politician counterparts were screaming from the roof tops that Obama was a communist/terrorist/nigerian/muslim that was going to steal everything from them.

As I've said, your list so far of terrible atrocities committed by Obama is rather empty. Perhaps you should think about that finger you've been pointing at him, and wonder where the hell you got the idea to point at him. And then perhaps if you're especially introspective you'll wonder how the hell you allowed yourself to be so easily misled by somebody with so obvious a political agenda.

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Post by can't sit still » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:53 am

I'm trying to give y'all an over all picture of what the true condition of the economy is. I might not be perfectly accurate, but I can do better than MSM. The centerpiece of our economic policy appears to be Keynesian. When the economy falters, GOV steps in and spends fresh money... At it's simplest terms. Keynesian economics works poorly in the best of times.
We've reached a point where GOV is such a huge part of the economy that, it spends money to keep mostly itself going. The spending keeps going but, where's the productivity? Money in circulation went up 6 times faster than GDP. The spending keeps going but it doesn't do anything productive. Outsourcing all the jobs just carved out another segment of productivity.

All GOV can do is,, what it has always done. It spends. It has no other playbook. It spends on war. It spends $ 189,000 to create a job that pays $ 113,000,,,, all on borrowed money.
It facilitated the elimination of the productive economy. It can only borrow / print and spend.
At best, GOV can facilitate productivity,, it can't create it. The corpse of the economy has water circulating in it's veins. The blood was drained out. Banks / GOV consider their freshly printed money to be the same as wealth produced from productive work. It's all the same to them so they let the productive economy wither away. Once you get rid of productivity, all you have left is money. Once you reach a point where you have only fresh money, you can't ever turn the spigot off.

"Fed watchers say Mr Bernanke and his close allies at the Board in Washington are worried by signs that the US recovery is running out of steam. The ECRI leading indicator published by the Economic Cycle Research Institute has collapsed to a 45-week low of -5.7 in the most precipitous slide for half a century."
":if necessary by pushing the Fed's balance sheet from $2.4 trillion (£1.6 trillion) to uncharted levels of $5 trillion."

"The US recovery is in imminent danger of stalling," said Stephen Lewis"
The economy crashed,,, they goosed it with $ 12.5 trillion,,, it responded,,, they quit goosing it when the stimulus ran out,,, it responded [died]

If you take an objective look at the economy, it only works when a lot of money is moving around. It's highly unlikely that GOV can keep the economy going printing unlimited money to replace the wealth created by productivity.
Bernanke knows better but he probably hasn't been given any other choice.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... lters.html
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:49 am

This is an interesting article from the Daily reckoning. It has much to say about taxes;


"Stimulus" - favored by the left-leaning politicians - rarely amounts to more than a form of welfare spending. This is appreciated in hard times, but it tends to be extremely expensive and does little for the economy as a whole. Deficit worries increase. Then comes the "austerity," often favored by conservative politicians.

"Austerity" usually means spending cuts and tax hikes. But, it does not take long before politicians, bureaucrats, public employees and corporate cronies all agree that they don't actually want to cut spending. Usually, they take some unpleasant swipes at welfare programs and services - in other words, the only programs that actually do some good, and which are especially important in a recession. This also happens to be the only government expenditure that does not land in the pockets of politicians, bureaucrats, public employees and corporate cronies.

These spending cuts rarely amount to much, so the government relies more and more on tax hikes for their "austerity" plans. The results of the tax hikes are typically an even worse economy, and often no appreciable increase in tax revenue.

As the economy contracts further, demands on the government increase. "Austerity" becomes unpopular, and is postponed until some future date "after the economy recovers." (The tax hikes remain, however.) If the government has not exceeded its debt carrying capacity, it lurches back toward "stimulus" and large deficits. Japan has been though this cycle probably a half-dozen times by now.

If the government can no longer credibly issue debt, the typical next step is a double helping of "austerity." There is talk of huge spending cuts, which rarely materialize. What usually happens next is minor spending cuts and huge tax hikes. This often begins the final implosion, when businesses give up completely, and tax evasion soars as the government has lost all legitimacy. Default may follow soon after.

Britain's government is near this point now. "Stimulus" is no longer tenable. Out come the tax hikes. The talk now is of raising the capital gains tax from 18% to 40%, and even 50% in some situations. This would be on top of an increase in the VAT to around 20% from 17.5%. It was 15% in 2009. In November 2008, Britain's government raised the top income tax rate from 40% to 45%, and in 2009 it increased to 50%.

In his 1932 election campaign, Herbert Hoover boasted that more public works had been built in the four years of his administration than in the previous thirty. Federal spending ballooned from $2.9 billion in 1929 to $4.4 billion in 1931, a 52% increase. Part of this gusher of cash went to build the Hoover Dam on the Colorado River.

This spending binge, in the midst of recession, brought huge deficits. Hoover then tried to address the deficit with a huge tax hike. In 1932, the top income tax rate in the US rose from 25% to 63%. He also tried to implement a national sales tax, but this was defeated. This followed the infamous Smoot-Hawley Tariff of 1930, which put a 60% tariff on more than 3,200 products.

After 1933, the Roosevelt administration pursued much the same approach. By 1935, Federal expenditures had grown to $6.4 billion, and in 1940 they hit $9.5 billion - over three times the level in 1929. That year, the top personal income tax rate was 79%. President Roosevelt's Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, described the results in May 1939:

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. ...We have never made good on our promises... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot."

The cycle of "stimulus" and "austerity" eventually leads to more spending and higher taxes. It doesn't work. So what's the solution?

A better strategy is less spending and lower taxes.

In 1976, Britain was so hard up that it had to go to the IMF for a loan. Without this assistance, the government would have likely defaulted. The IMF insisted on its usual "austerity" plan, with spending reductions and higher taxes of course. In 1979, Margaret Thatcher became prime minister. Thatcher is remembered today for her sweeping reorganization of government, in which public employees, subsidies and state-run businesses were slashed or discarded. She crushed the influence of public unions in the face of widespread strikes.

Despite this, in the 1983 general elections, only 39% of union members voted for the opposing Labor Party. Thatcher was popular. Why? The other side of her strategy was tax cuts. She immediately moved to lower top income tax rates from 83% to 60%. By 1986, the top income tax rate was 40%, and the basic rate had fallen to 25%. Capital gains tax rates were reduced from 75% to 30%, and indexed to inflation. The corporate tax rate was reduced from 52% to 35%.

Ronald Reagan, in the US, had much the same strategy: tax cuts and spending cuts. During his presidency, the top US income tax rate fell from 70% to 28%. His attempts to reduce spending floundered in the Democrat-controlled Congress.

Ideally, spending reductions should focus on the waste, theft and graft - the politicians, bureaucrats, public employees and corporate cronies - not on the public services which are the government's primary reason for existence. Britain still has its National Health system.

I find that these sorts of policies are accompanied by a certain change in mood. The political focus shifts from parasitic self-enrichment to one of national success and failure. If your initial premise is to find a way to strip-mine the populace for wealth, and then distribute your gains among your cronies, then tax hikes and spending increases are the natural conclusion. Politicians find the answers when they start to ask the questions. Thatcher studied conservative texts, and actually read Friedrich Hayek's The Road to Serfdom from cover to cover.

You can sense this change in mood when the terms "stimulus" and "austerity" disappear from discussion. Politicians start to talk about "national greatness," as Vladimir Putin did in 2000 when he introduced Russia's amazing 13% flat income tax. In the explosive recovery that followed, the Russian government's income tax revenues soared. In 2001, the first year of the new tax system, income tax revenues increased by an astonishing 46%! This had nothing to do with oil prices, which finished that year at $19.33 per barrel. In 2002, income tax revenues increased another 40%, and crude oil finished the year at $29.42. By 2007, income tax revenues were 624% higher than they were in 2000, and Russia was once again a major world power.

This can be a wonderful time for investors.

Sometimes, governments never pull out of their spiral of decline. During the 16th century, Spain was the wealthiest and most powerful state in Europe, with a world empire stretching from California and Peru in the west to the Philippines in the east - not to mention Portugal and most of Italy and the Netherlands. By the early 17th century, native Spaniards were fleeing to the Americas to escape crushing taxes.

In his wonderful book, For Good and Evil: the Impact of Taxes on the Course of Civilization, Charles Adams notes an observer in early 17th century Madrid who said:

"The galleons left on the 28th of last month; I am assured that in addition to the persons who sailed for business reasons, more than 6,000 Spaniards have passed over to America for the simple reason that they cannot live in Spain."
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:14 pm

This is a good article by GEAB 2020. They make the point that austerity has already come to America,,, to the states and cities. The G20 refused to go along with D.C implementing more stimulus. Washington will have to go it alone. That will make U.S. bonds very unattractive. Austerity WILL come to America sooner or later.
That will start a real descent into deflation that will closely resemble ,,,HELL.
Imagine 5 million GOV workers laid off.
http://www.leap2020.eu/geab-n-46-specia ... a4810.html

There is another possibility that has occurred to me. I believe that there is only about $ 600 in cash for every person in the country. If enough people put cash under their mattress, we could soon be a cashless society. :wink: I found that in Egypt where nobody could make change. Very strange times.
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Post by can't sit still » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:54 pm

The battle between inflationists and deflationists is still undecided. Bob Prechter seems to be the leading deflationist. The reason that we don't have an exact precedent for our current "position" is because, it is different this time.
There is such an enormous amount of money in circulation that investors can negate any action by central bankers. I also saw a good chart showing that the central banks follow the interest rates of the investors,, not the other way around. The investors, not the FED set interest.
There is so much more credit in existence than there is money that there is FAR higher destruction. Once printed money is in circulation, it is difficult to remove it.
Credit, on the other hand, can be canceled by the trainload.
Prechter claims that GOV will not be allowed to print money endlessly. The bond market will blow if they do.
http://www.elliottwave.com/freeupdates/ ... -What.aspx
It looks like deflation is the most likely scenario until GOV defaults. That will really play hell with the economy.
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Post by 1durphul » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:31 am

Krugman says we are entering into third depression:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/28/opini ... ugman.html

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:53 am

Krugman has always had his head up his ass. The problem, he says is that there isn't enough spending. He says that this depression won't be as severe as the Great Depression. As long as people listen to him, we can expect it to be much worse. There isn't enough purchasing power. Like the bone-headed bankers, he considers a truckload of credit to be the same as a truckload of wealth.
Credit is ,, future earnings puled to the present to buy todays goods. When you spend future earnings today, it tends to drive up prices because future wealth is chasing todays production. You end up with artificially inflated prices at the same time that you arrive at your future,,,,, where all your earnings are committed to pay off yesterday.

It's not that you have no spending, you have no purchasing power. Your spending is all committed to satisfy old debt.
GOV is trying to spend even farther into the future. This would typically saddle our kids with our debt. But, in this case, debt service is going to blow the whole thing out of the water long before it falls on our kids.

Deficit spending is a slippery slope. If you run up big deficits, the debt service will eventually kill you. If you downsize the GOV expenditures to pay off the debt, the sudden withdrawal of GOV spending will wipe out the economy and kill tax revenues to where you still can't service the debt.
Reportedly , obummer will halve the deficit by 2013. Since increased taxes have a 3X negative multiplier for the productive economy, increased taxes will kill the economy.
If he cuts services, he will destroy millions of the non-rich.
If he cuts the military, he will wipe out all those who depend on military contracts.
It will be interesting to see where he plans to get the bucks to halve the deficit.
VERY slippery slope !!
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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:43 pm

Many U.S. states have to pas a budget by June 30. Many states are counting on D.C. money as part of their budget. D.C. can't very well bail out all of the states. D.C. did not pass another unemployment benefit extension bill. If D.C. is NOT willing to make direct payments to the unemployed, how willing will they be to cover state bond obligations?
Obummer talked stimulus to the G-20. They said... NO!
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/buckl ... 62810.html

Obummer said that he would cut the deficit in half by 2013. Do the math,, this requires spending cuts of about $ 3 trillion a year. He's talking out his ass so that the bond market won't get spooked. The dumb fuck thinks that bond investors don't read the "FED flow of funds report". When bond investors see deficit-reduction action in Europe and the lack of it here, they'll run away.

The average maturity of U.S. bonds is 4.4 years,,, the lowest around. If Obummer doesn't do debt reduction, nobody but the FED will roll over existing bonds. In the ongoing currency wars, the ECB is warning about massive money printing by the FED.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... serve.html

I'm sure that the FED would LIKE to just print fresh "money" to satisfy bond redemption. It's highly unlikely that it will work. The consensus seems to be that extreme money printing won't happen until the economy REALLY crashes. This is expected to be about 18 to 24 months off. War with Iran and a closure of the Straits of Hormuz would bring it on sooner.
Get a job and save your money. :D
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