Solar Panels + Air Conditioning: Help from the Hive Mind

Materials and expertise...whether you need them or have them to share, you can let folks know here.
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bm_cricket
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Solar Panels + Air Conditioning: Help from the Hive Mind

Post by bm_cricket » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:54 pm

What do your think it would take to make a car roof mountable solar panel that's powerful enough to run an AC unit big enough to cool a tinbubble wrap insulated 16 foot diameter dome?

Would anyone help me put together a list of parts and sources to power it and for an AC unit big enough to cool that space?

Price is important... But I can't even come up with guesses. What about the swamp cooler alternative? Any guesses how much water it would take to run figjam's solution? I'm pretty sure that cooler is big enough to handle a dome that size.

This sure isn't going to be a project for this year! Not in the cards (or the checking account.. :-()
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Post by FIGJAM » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:57 pm

How many cubic feet is it?
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Post by bm_cricket » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:05 pm

FIGJAM wrote:How many cubic feet is it?
Round-a-bout 1,300 ft^3 if my algebra is right... It's a 5/8 dome.
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Post by FIGJAM » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:11 pm

The 2.0 cooler might do it. Pg 4 of the cooler thread.
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Post by bm_cricket » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:15 pm

FIGJAM wrote:The 2.0 cooler might do it.
Any guesses on the water consumption? (PS, I'm looking through your thread on cooling.. but could you point me to the "2.0" design? I'm sure I'll find it soon enough anyway..)
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Post by FIGJAM » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:19 pm

Scroll down page 4 for the larger cooler. Almost 1000cfm, uses not quite a gal. of water per hour.
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Post by bm_cricket » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:39 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Scroll down page 4 for the larger cooler. Almost 1000cfm, uses not quite a gal. of water per hour.
Hmm.. I'm reading about your design.. I'm tempted to build one and just see how it works using one of my camp mates insane water supplies.. but I don't have access to that much water or an ability to transport it. That would get overwhelming quickly.. Still, it's a beautiful design and I'll seriously consider it. It may be worth it even if we only have enough to cool the dome down during an hour nap in the day.

I still wonder about AC and solar.. I think it would be nice to see a side-by-side comparison of a solar AC vs swamp cooler+water+transport/storage.
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Post by some seeing eye » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:50 pm

Solar AC is not possible. Solar swamp cooler with a very, very insulated and silvered dome barely. Make a connection with the Alternative Energy Zone.

To AC cool that you would need greater than 1500W. Solar panels are about $5 per peak Watt.

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Post by bm_cricket » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:54 pm

some seeing eye wrote:Solar AC is not possible. Solar swamp cooler with a very, very insulated and silvered dome barely. Make a connection with the Alternative Energy Zone.

To AC cool that you would need greater than 1500W. Solar panels are about $5 per peak Watt.
I think you've convinced me.. Shoot.
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Post by capjbadger » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:17 am

some seeing eye wrote:Solar AC is not possible. Solar swamp cooler with a very, very insulated and silvered dome barely. Make a connection with the Alternative Energy Zone.

To AC cool that you would need greater than 1500W. Solar panels are about $5 per peak Watt.
$5 per watt?? Only if you aren't shopping around.
http://www.laviesolar.com/pro_show.asp?id=35
$3/Watt...

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Post by POWERCHAIR » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:34 am

.....
Last edited by POWERCHAIR on Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by kman » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:23 am

I've been browsing several dedicated solar forums lately, the two requests I see that come up most often from beginner solar enthusiasts are:

1) solar air conditioning
and
2) solar refrigeration.

It generally takes very little time for the people who really know their stuff to convince others that it's either impractical or downright impossible to do at this time. Solar just isn't there yet. (refrigerators are somewhat possible, but fairly impractical, while AC is pretty impossible... but it's still usually more cost-effective to go with a propane-based fridge over solar)

The issue with solar is you usually can't run the output directly into the device to run it, you need to tame it into a bank of batteries first to smooth the power output. The solar panels basically exist to recharge the batteries at the same time as the electrical devices draw power from the battery bank.

The biggest issue with the batteries (other than sheer cost!) is the size and weight of the battery banks you need to smooth out the voltage swings throughout the day, and to deal with cloudy days, winter, etc. (that last is obviously not an issue for us on the playa, but we do get nights!)

Even with the right batteries, the panels needed to push 1500w into a hungry AC unit would be prohibitively expensive, while the generator needed to run one (while loud and non-green) could easily be had for under $500. (more like $1k for a nice quite honda, but still)

Best prices I see on eBay for solar panels tends to be $200 for 100w. So that's $3k in panels alone. Then you need a really good (or several really good) charge controllers to tame the output (many hundreds of dollars there) and a pretty impressive bank of batteries to dole out the smoothed out power (many hundreds, if not thousands, and an obscene amount of weight).

Vs. $1k for a generator, and a hundred or two in fuel (at the most).

This is a bare-bones explanation, not meant to be comprehensive, in case there are any experts reading this getting ready to crank up the flame machines... There's a lot more that goes into it. Battery banks can only be depleted so far without seriously damaging them, so extra capacity over what you'd think has to be factored in. The conversion from DC battery current to AC current via inverters is not 100% efficient, so you lose a percentage of the power you're generating right there, too (easily 10-20%, depending on a lot of other factors)

I look forward to the day when we can run power-hungry devices off of renewable, clean energy like solar and wind. But outside of theoretical solar models and massive wind farms, we're not at the point where it's practical for most individuals to do so, particularly not for a short event like burning man.

One thing you can do with solar, however, is run a swamp cooler, which only needs power for a water pump and a fan. But even there, scaling a swamp cooler up big enough to cool a big dome is going to be a little challenging. I think it could be done, actually, but you're still going to pay a LOT more for the solar rig to run the swamp cooler than you would just to buy a generator, and you'd have much lower temps with the real AC, too.

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Post by capjbadger » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:49 am

Honestly if you want to keep a dome cool, you're much better off spending your efforts to keep the heat out in the first place.
Block the light, and vent at night to trap in cool nighttime air. The shaded ground will stay cool also and keep things nice.

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Post by some seeing eye » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:11 am

Thanks badger and K. I'm thinking about someone who had a dome covered with multiple layers of aluminized bubble wrap and swamp cooler cooled in the AEZ. It was never got very cool and was humid.

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Post by capjbadger » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:02 pm

My dome the first year I went was covered in platic tarps that were "silver" on one side and black on the other. Stayed down-right chilly in there and dark. If light is getting through it will convert into heat from the surfaces in the dome. Keep out the light and you're good to go.

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Post by gyre » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:43 pm

A chemical system heated by solar could be used for cooling, but not electric.

I found a line using reflectors and high temperature panels, but i can't find them now.
Very high density per watt.

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Solar trough

Post by Cao314159 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:45 pm

If it is cooling from solar you want, you could always go with an absorption cooler! Same idea as an a/c unit, but uses a constant source of heat instead of a compressor. Some work with as little as 200 degrees of constant source heat. If you heat the water with a homemade solar trough (way cheaper than panels) your dome will get cooler the harder the sun shines! You would most likely have to make the cooler yourself (which is not impossible to do), but for a guy like me that would be half the fun! Anyone else ventured into this concept before that could illuminate us? Thanks!

Cao314159

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_air_cooler

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Post by Token » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:54 pm

Yeah, RV propane fridge uses that. Replace propane heat with solar heat.

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Post by Cao314159 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:44 pm

Never thought of using a flame! I am not familiar with these types of systems, how efficient are they? I am not much of an artist, but I am good at building things. I would love for my gift to be one of hospitality, and a nice cold dome would be quite inviting. I really don't want to use a generator with a standard a/c unit, so solar seems the best plan!

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