Sexual Violence

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:54 pm

a friend of mine and I made friends with this adorable australian woman on thursday night. We ended up partying all night and into sunrise with her. At one point, when my friend went to pee, she told me how psyched she was to be hanging out with me because I had told her I was married and seemed cool with it. She told me how it was nice to be hanging out with nice guys who were not hitting her up. She said she was tired of being made to feel like a playa prostitute. I was touched she said this to me but also very sad that in other situations she was made to feel bad.

I then had to pull my friend aside, single and smitten, and tell him not to hit on her.

clandyone · Post by **clandyone** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:59 pm

I was going to throw the first turd in the shitstorm myself, but confess I'm at a complete loss.

Suffice to say that galaxybeing's post is the biggest load of Paleolithic CRAP I've ever seen in my fucking life.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:12 pm

I need to vomit now.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:14 pm

Taz wrote:
Jane, so what would you say of a man bedecked in expensive jewelry walking alone through a poor crime ridden area? You'd probably call him stupid , asking for it, cruisin' for a bruisin', right? . . . . It is because of adverse human behavior that we have to watch children at playgrounds and not leave them unattended.

Taz - Do you not see it as offensive or at least exaggerated to compare Burningman's women to unattended children in a playground? Or that naked women at Burningman be compared to flashing something valuable in front of a group of known theives? Temptation is not a reason for rape. The rapist is the reason for rape. You are not suggesting a bit of awareness - you are making an statement that is so exagerated as to make women 100% responsible for the crime of having something some else might want.

Everyone here seems to make almost exactly the same points in regards to reducing one's vulnerablity, making the rapist responsible, and speaking & acting out against any bad behavior. So how do your examples explain something we don't know? What wisdom haven't I gotten from it?

If anything you seem to be dragging the discussion backwards.

Frankly I'm dragging the discussion backwards by even responding! - you are such a good little troll!

I'm going out to get in bar fight.

Cheers -

- Pets

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:14 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:I need to vomit now.

LNT

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:19 pm

Suffice to say that galaxybeing's post is the biggest load of Paleolithic CRAP I've ever seen in my fucking life.

In general, it's not.

In the context of Sunset's post, it most certainly is.

Taking something that isn't yours or being pressured into giving something that you don't want to give does not equal a gift.

The end.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:19 pm

clandyone wrote:It SUCKS that a woman could be made to feel that she "owes" a guy sex.

It SUCKS that she felt trapped and helpless and guilty.

It SUCKS that, for whatever reason, she did not feel justified in using the necessary force to put an end to the assault.

It SUCKS that the guy in question was such a yellow-bellied dirty rat bastard. I'd kick his ass myself, if I could.

However... and I'm sure to catch a lot of flak for this ... if she didn't say no, it wasn't rape. It was a shitty, sleazy situation, but if she was merely going along with something she didn't like, motivated by guilt and drunkenness, it wasn't rape.

Far be it from me to drag us back to the days when rape victims had to prove they resisted to an arbitrarily determined degree, but if you find yourself in a situation like the one Sunset described, you have the option of stopping the attack.

Step 1. Yell "Cut it out!"
Step 2. Grab balls.
Step 3. Squeeze like hell.
Step 4. Scream your head off.
Step 5. Run to nearest LEO or facsimile thereof and have the asshole hauled in.

If you find yourself in a situation like Sunset's, you owe it to yourself to resist unequivocally, and get help. Otherwise, there's just this huge gray area which obscures both your own credibility and the guilt of the attacker.

Those are really good points, and are also reasons that harming the guy physically now won't help. Manipulative fucks just find such punishment a reason to feel put upon, angry, and rally others to their side when they are the ones who are making the woman feel powerless and ashamed.

There still may be an opportunity to cut through the gray area by telling the guy what you're feeling, but I'd caution you not to expect too much out of it from his end, just do it for your own sake to try and reclaim your voice.

I tried something like that twice with someone who abused me and just got more abuse in return, but at least I felt I had made an attempt to speak my mind.

clandyone · Post by **clandyone** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:24 pm

Ivy wrote:
Suffice to say that galaxybeing's post is the biggest load of Paleolithic CRAP I've ever seen in my fucking life.
In general, it's not.

In the context of Sunset's post, it most certainly is.

Taking something that isn't yours or being pressured into giving something that you don't want to give does not equal a gift.

The end.

Of course, I intended my criticism to be read in context -- not just of Sunset's post, but of this thread in general.

Telling a woman that acquiescing to unwanted sex is a "gift" is just plain horrible. And it's a real slippery slope, too -- should I spread for the next asshole who hits on me at the bus stop, because it would be a "gift", and gifts are good? Not.. fucking.. likely.

Galaxywhatever's post also smacks of the repulsive old saw that it is women's "duty" to provide sex for men... galaxywhatever just invoked it in the name of the gift economy, which is disgusting.

Gifts, by definition, are freely given, as you say.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:34 pm

oh zane . . . .

Sounds fair to me -

I have an older brother & when I was I kid & we fought - my mother would come in the room (& although my brother was bigger & stronger) she would say that she wasn't there to judge what happened - so she laid no blame. She would offen say:

One of you was looking for trouble & one of you couldn't avoid it - so you're both going to your rooms.

Needless to say she was right as usual. However, I started doing stealth attacks on my brother in his sleep to keep him in check. It really worked well.

On an even more random note - my brother recently taught his two year daughter how to form a fist in response to her older brother hitting her. My nephew has stopped hitting her. Sometimes "Don't do that" isn't so effective when no one's looking.

I love my brother.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:38 pm

PetsUntilEaten wrote:... I started doing stealth attacks on my brother in his sleep to keep him in check. It really worked well.

<sigh>

Now my crush on you is even bigger...

oops

orlando · Post by **orlando** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:39 pm

and follow therules dammit! :)

as for people in jail ..the vast majority of them are just like you

NON VIOLENT DRUG OFFENDERS.

try again.

how do we discuss power imbalances and gender -- what differs in HOW we discuss each... that's what I'm interested in

if you don't like the thread- it's just like the playa wander somewhere where you do like the thread. and if you don't wanna play -don't.

jeez.

and to that last poster ---just eeeeewwww.

orlando · Post by **orlando** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:40 pm

nevermind...

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:42 pm

if you don't like the thread- it's just like the playa wander somewhere where you do like the thread. and if you don't wanna play -don't.

Ya know, generally speaking it's easier to keep a thread on track by just ignoring the drift and keeping on topic yourself than by doing a smack-down on the drifters.

It's an important topic but once people say what they've got to say on it... drift happens.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:43 pm

orlando,

Did you think I was being serious...?

I was using hyperbole to attempt to make a point, but alas, I've forgotten which one.

Ah yes, I remember. When it comes to security and justice, be careful what you ask for--you might get it.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:45 pm

drift... drift... drift...

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:48 pm

And what if I don't wander away?

Maybe I'm feeling a little contrary today.

It is only type.

orlando · Post by **orlando** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:48 pm

i got ya-- just didn't say so

still think lydia's brother's head should be on a spike -regardless of how she feels - justice has it's own timetable.

galaxybeing · Post by **galaxybeing** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:50 pm

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:50 pm

orlando wrote:justice has it's own timetable.

I'll agree to that, and sometimes justice is not what we expect it to be.

clandyone · Post by **clandyone** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:01 pm

galaxybeing wrote:
clandyone wrote:-- should I spread for the next asshole who hits on me at the bus stop, because it would be a "gift", and gifts are good? Not.. fucking.. likely
You really are a victim, arn't you. Maybe you could give him a smile? For you that would probably be quite a gift.

You know that she didn't just meet him, she was hanging out with him for a week and they were practically getting it on at the time.

You want to feel like a victim, go ahead. Feels great, doesn't it? Sex can't be a gift? Love can't be a gift?

The following things are irrelevant:

Whether or not I smile at strangers.

Whether or not the woman in question was hanging out with the guy in question.

Your definition of "gettng it on" vs "practically getting it on".

What she was wearing.

Victimhood, the identification with.

The FACT is, that no matter what YOUR arbitrary standards are, she expressed that she DID NOT want to have sex with the guy. And you, in your benificent wisdom, deemed that her doing something she DIDN'T WANT TO DO was a "gift" and "in the spirit of Burning Man".

GIFTS ARE FREELY GIVEN. BY DEFINITION.

WHOMP. That was the clue-by-four, dude.

I don't feel like I should have to defend myself, but every single one of my posts on this thread has dealt with NOT being a fucking victim, either through intelligent prevention, honesty with one's self, or appealing to the proper authorities.

You seem like one of those "if rape is inevitable, why not just relax and enjoy it" types... the "broken people" Stu Scanlon spoke of. No matter what kind of hippie claptrap you gussy your opinion up with.

I certainly hope you never have a daughter, or a sister, or a wife who is sexually assaulted. I can imagine what kind of support you'd offer.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:02 pm

i like being seduced.

i don't like being manipulated.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:05 pm

clandyone wrote:I can imagine what kind of support you'd offer.

The kind where she would rather swallow a 00 buck round from a 12 ga and spray blood, brains, hair, and bone all over the room than to continue to listening to more support...?

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:06 pm

III wrote:i like being seduced.

i don't like being manipulated.

I'll second that.

orlando · Post by **orlando** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:07 pm

with clandyone.

you RAAAAWK!

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:19 pm

GIFTS ARE FREELY GIVEN. BY DEFINITION.

Just thought it was worth repeating.

Let's say I have a cup of coffee. I choose to give it to you. It's a gift.

Let's say I have a cup of coffee. You come up and take it from me. That's not a gift.

Let's say I have a vagina. I choose to give it to you. It's a gift.

Let's say I ahve a vagina. You come up and take it from me. That's not a gift.

Is it really so hard?

ecliptic · Post by **ecliptic** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:20 pm

Zane5100 wrote:
III wrote:i like being seduced.

i don't like being manipulated.
I'll second that.

What's wrong with a little hand manipulation?

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:23 pm

ecliptic wrote: What's wrong with a little hand manipulation?

Depends on the context.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:26 pm

abeerinthemorning wrote:
Those are really good points, and are also reasons that harming the guy physically now won't help.

Welp, in the words of my redneckish, violent elder bro- "Sometimes, the only thing that gets through is a good beating."

If the guy did the deed, and got away with it, then he will persist in the view that he can. Simple conditioning. If a family member or friend of the victim takes said person aside, rapes him with a beer bottle, and then beats him until he cannot move- I guarantee he will think twice before performing the nasty deeds, if he ever does it again.

I did 4 months time as a kid for being a stupid punk. The second I got out of juvie I realized that life in jail is not life at all. The staff tells you that 80% of juvie offenders will be in and out of jails for life (this was before the 3 strikes rule). It changed my life and I finished 2 1/2 years of high school failure in 1 year to graduate. I started going to the community college at age 16 and either did high school days with college nights, or worked during the day and community college at night. I now have a good job and that life is far behind me.

I have two friends in high school whose respective parents hired lawyers and managed to keep their kids out of juvie. One is doing life and it took him 8 years afterwards before his lifestyle caught up with him. Then it was too late. The patterns were to firmly ingrained.

The other one had 4 DUIs and various other crimes. Never spent more that a weekend in jail. His mother always paid out big bucks to get him freed. He just went onto lifetime disability from the state. He has turet syndrome, but it never interfered with a damn thing he ever did. When the state turned him down, mommy hired a lwayer and started another ruckus. End result, he is an unhappy man- living on cigarettes and alcohol in HUD housing. Noone can deal with him for long on a personal level as he has the overwhelming feeling that he can do anything he wants without consequences. Absolutely charming guy when you first meet him, could sell refridgerators to Eskimos, but after a while the true spirit surfaces.

Anyway, the guist of this is that things aren't always solved legally. There is no guarantee that a cop will be next to you when bad things happen (and usually aren't). If truely bad behavior is not somehow made unpleasant to predators, they will continue. Rapists tend to be bullies and inwardly cowards. Peace and love are great concepts, but having a heart-to-heart talk with Charles Mansion won't do shit. A good boot to the head would work better.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:30 pm

Ivy wrote:
GIFTS ARE FREELY GIVEN. BY DEFINITION.
Just thought it was worth repeating.

Let's say I have a cup of coffee. I choose to give it to you. It's a gift.

Let's say I have a cup of coffee. You come up and take it from me. That's not a gift.

Let's say I have a vagina. I choose to give it to you. It's a gift.

Let's say I ahve a vagina. You come up and take it from me. That's not a gift.

Is it really so hard?

Can I borrow a cup of vagina? With cream?

<i>eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww</i>

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:31 pm

Rob the Wop wrote: Can I borrow a cup of vagina? With cream?

<i>eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww</i>

Now that's funky...

Sexual Violence

look up the term thought experiement...

re last poster

sorry zane

Re: sorry zane

im in love