Safe Enough for Children is Too Safe

All things outside of Burning Man.

Assertion: If BurningMan is safe for children, then BurningMan has become too safe.

Agreed. The Burn is no place for kids. Period.
15
25%
Agreed. The Burn is no place for kids. Period.
15
25%
Agreed. Sadly the Burn has become Disneyland in the Desert.
0
No votes
Agreed. Sadly the Burn has become Disneyland in the Desert.
0
No votes
Wrong. Children should face the same risks as adults.
10
17%
Wrong. Children should face the same risks as adults.
10
17%
Wrong. You're so Old School. Today's Burn is a new-age hippy-fest appropriate to all ages.
5
8%
Wrong. You're so Old School. Today's Burn is a new-age hippy-fest appropriate to all ages.
5
8%
 
Total votes: 60

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Safe Enough for Children is Too Safe

Post by Wind_Borne » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:35 pm

From the BurningMan ticket agreement:
I acknowledge and fully understand that as a participant, I will be engaging in activities that involve risk of serious injury, including permanent disability and death, property loss and severe social and economic losses.
I take that as some assurance that the Burn will be rather less safe and boring than life in the default world. And, also, that the Burn is not a place that a rational person would take a child. After all, we don't bring dogs to the burn... and I have owned dogs that are much more capable than small children, and (to be brutally honest) less precious if lost.

And yet people do bring small children. This year Rangers approached our camp twice looking for lost children. One can so easily imagine a child falling asleep in a tent at midday and quietly passing away in the heat like a baby left in a car. Not to mention all the opportunities for serious injury.

We go to BurningMan partly for the opportunity to participate in things that are too extreme for the default world. That is one of the great joys of the Burn. So I assert that if the Burn is safe enough for children, then the Burn has become too safe.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-- George Washington

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Post by Edana » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:46 pm

Sigh. Here we go again.

I'm one of those "irrational" people who just got home, along with my 3 yr old and 5 yr old. The biggest issue we had was a little bit of wind chapped cheeks. They drank plenty of water, ate well, were sunscreened/sunhatted all the time, never left unattended, got very adept at putting their own masks and goggles on when needed etc. Basically, we were responsible parents on playa, just like we are off playa.

Yes, by the end of the week they were definitely very dirty (but weren't we all?).

And they had the most incredible time. They can't wait to get back.

Yes, it is an extreme enironment. And some parents shouldn't take their kids out there, because they can't handle the responsibility. Some parents shouldn't drive cars with their kids in them either.

But not ALL parents are irresponsible. My kids fared better than a lot of the adults I saw trying to kill themselves out there.

I don't have the official number of kids there, but there were 250 kids in Kidsville alone (and I saw many many kids not from Kidsville too). And there were TWO incidents of "lost" children. In a week? Sounds to me like the parents in general were doing a pretty good job.

(At least 1 of the kids wasn't actually lost - just didn't hear her name being called. Probably never would have even come to a Ranger's knowledge if one hadn't been right there when mom couldn't immediately find the child).

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Re: Safe Enough for Children is Too Safe

Post by joya » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:49 pm

Wind_Borne wrote:From the BurningMan ticket agreement:
I acknowledge and fully understand that as a participant, I will be engaging in activities that involve risk of serious injury, including permanent disability and death, property loss and severe social and economic losses.
I take that as some assurance that the Burn will be rather less safe and boring than life in the default world. And, also, that the Burn is not a place that a rational person would take a child. After all, we don't bring dogs to the burn... and I have owned dogs that are much more capable than small children, and (to be brutally honest) less precious if lost.

And yet people do bring small children. This year Rangers approached our camp twice looking for lost children. One can so easily imagine a child falling asleep in a tent at midday and quietly passing away in the heat like a baby left in a car. Not to mention all the opportunities for serious injury.

We go to BurningMan partly for the opportunity to participate in things that are too extreme for the default world. That is one of the great joys of the Burn. So I assert that if the Burn is safe enough for children, then the Burn has become too safe.
Completely and absolutely disagree with you.

I would love to see MORE children at Burning Man -- as well as more of the older generations.

It is a community -- and I am sorry you are unable to see past yourself to realize this.
Burning Man: I'm over it.

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Post by Wind_Borne » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:54 pm

So does that mean you would vote that children should face the same risks as adults? If so, cool, you're much more daring than those hovering parents that drive their kids to school. And you're the exception, not the rule.

The presence of children already limits what can happen at the Burn. The first time a child gets seriously hurt or killed... the Burn will never the same (if it even survives the law suits).
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
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Post by joya » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:56 pm

I hate to sound cliche -- but the children are our future. Period. End of story. And I would much rather leave the world in the hands of burners than in the hands of those in the machine (so to speak).

So, sorry, but you are not going to change my opinion. *shrug*

If children are so limiting to your "joy" on the playa, then perhaps you should stay home next year.

cheerio.
Burning Man: I'm over it.

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Post by Wind_Borne » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:01 pm

Joya, I adore children. That doesn't mean all places are equally suited to children, or should be.

BTW, advancing an opinion does not call for an ad hominem attack. Disassemble the argument, not the person.

And, thanks for your perspective.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-- George Washington

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Post by joya » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:11 pm

I hear you Wind Borne, and respect that you have an opinion as well.

Perhaps our differences lie at the core of what Burning Man means to each of us -- and it is different I'm sure for many.

One man's "city of sin" is another woman's "expression of inclusive community & creative potential"... and so it goes.

Not sure how you feel I've attacked you, but apologize if my responses made you feel that way. We both apparently have strong opinions on this topic. I'm not looking to change yours -- but I certainly will not and do not support banning children from this incredible event. And I'm pretty sure that is not going to happen anyway, as people have been expressing your viewpoint for years -- and nothing has changed in this arena yet. At least that I'm aware of.
Burning Man: I'm over it.

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Post by Wind_Borne » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:22 pm

Thanks, Joya.

The Burn does have so many facets. For me, it's about the art and pushing the envelope of the possible.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:58 pm

I grew up playing in the backyard or the vacant lot next door, playing with sharp things, fire, falling out of trees, and so on. I grew up all right, if at all. So protecting your young-uns will turn them out worse than me and you wouldn't want that.

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Post by Eric » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 pm

Fandango has a 9 year old who is on his 8th Burn, and a 6 year old on her 4th (siblings). Both more veteran Burners than a lot of the people on this board and definitely more than most of the people on the playa (hell, the 9 year olds been going longer than me!)

I would pit either of them in a Burning Man survival contest against almost any Burner out there who's been going anywhere as long as them. Their mom trained them, and they want to be there.

Don't want kids present? Create your own event.

Otherwise, get over it and quit trying to control how others, including those with kids, want to enjoy their Burn. It's not your decision to make, never has been, never will be.

and done.
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Post by Box Burner » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:40 pm

Life is all about taking risks. Responsible parents educate their kids and let them take risks. Watched and guarded risks perhaps but risks just the same. Great gobs of fire man, if you don't let them take risks they will grow up to be retards!

Burning man is a great place for kids.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

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Post by Kiro » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:02 pm

I loved seeing kids there, but it did make me angry to see a sunburned and miserable child being carried around by his dipshit parent.

I would hate to see them banned, though I agree that the first child casualty may become a very difficult situation indeed. The problem is stupid parents, not kids.

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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:26 pm

How about a statement on the back of the ticket that says you are welcome to bring your kids, but if you lose track of them like a fucking dipshit, no Amber Alert will be imposed on 50K people until you find them. (?) Seriously, the concept of Exodus being held up while people try to find their kids is absolutely ludicrous in my book (which you can feel free to burn) as it imposes the all-too-common reality/terror of temporarily out of sight children on the entire festival. I know kids aren't bikes or favorite bling, but the same rule(s) should apply... if you can't bear with the loss or damage to something (including yourself... read your fucking ticket) DO NOT BRING IT TO BRC. I don't care how cute or enlightened or mature or savvy your kids are... I don't want your parenting or their natural incination to wander to impose on my burn, in the same way I don't want unprepared fucktards to impose on my Burn. Sorry if it sounds harsh or selfish, but the Burn (unlike most everything else these days) is not about your kids and their safety/enjoyment.
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Post by Kiro » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:29 pm

Mosin wrote:How about a statement on the back of the ticket that says you are welcome to bring your kids, but if you lose track of them like a fucking dipshit, no Amber Alert will be imposed on 50K people until you find them.
The death or abduction of a child would threaten the event's survival. Even if you hate children or think stupid parents deserve abandonment, holding up exodus for half an hour is a small price to pay in the long run.

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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:29 pm

Eric wrote:Otherwise, get over it and quit trying to control how others, including those with kids, want to enjoy their Burn. It's not your decision to make, never has been, never will be.
Unless the lockdown during Exodus was just a rumor (and if so, fuck me!) it seems like the people with kids are the only ones who have the power/opportunity to control how others enjoy their burn. So, was Exodus held up while Ma and Pa Burner looked for little Johnny, or not?
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:30 pm

can't wait to do battle in the thunderdome with them lil rug rats

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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:34 pm

Kiro wrote:
Mosin wrote:How about a statement on the back of the ticket that says you are welcome to bring your kids, but if you lose track of them like a fucking dipshit, no Amber Alert will be imposed on 50K people until you find them.
The death or abduction of a child would threaten the event's survival. Even if you hate children or think stupid parents deserve abandonment, holding up exodus for half an hour is a small price to pay in the long run.
Thus, the rule of thumb seems to be "Nothing in BRC--art, people, gear, vehicles-- is sacred or safe, except my little precious! Watch out for her/him, otherwise the festival's survival might be at risk."

Sorry, but I say kids at BM deserve equal status with everything else out there. Quit discriminating against the precious children! ;)
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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:37 pm

Kiro wrote: The death or abduction of a child would threaten the event's survival. Even if you hate children or think stupid parents deserve abandonment, holding up exodus for half an hour is a small price to pay in the long run.
We're all so lucky little Janey showed up after only 1/2 hour. But I guess that 5-6 hours would be worth it too, as long as the children are safe, right? I mean, Burning Man is all about the children, isn't it?

Eiither way, I am better than your kids... :wink:
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Post by Kiro » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:41 pm

Mosin wrote:We're all so lucky little Janey showed up after only 1/2 hour. But I guess that 5-6 hours would be worth it too, as long as the children are safe, right? I mean, Burning Man is all about the children, isn't it?
You're incredibly short sighted and stupid, or a fucking great troll.

I vote stupid.

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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:45 pm

Kiro wrote:
Mosin wrote:We're all so lucky little Janey showed up after only 1/2 hour. But I guess that 5-6 hours would be worth it too, as long as the children are safe, right? I mean, Burning Man is all about the children, isn't it?
You're incredibly short sighted and stupid, or a fucking great troll.

I vote stupid.
I'm a troll or stupid because I disagree with you and some of the others here? Fuck you too. And I am still better than your kids, btw.
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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:53 pm

Wind_Borne wrote:Joya, I adore children. That doesn't mean all places are equally suited to children, or should be.

BTW, advancing an opinion does not call for an ad hominem attack. Disassemble the argument, not the person.
Amen
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Post by Kiro » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:01 pm

Mosin wrote:I'm a troll or stupid because I disagree with you and some of the others here?
No, you're stupid because you'd happily risk the survival of the entire event because you're an inconsiderate, impatient asshole. =)

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Post by Mosin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:43 pm

Kiro wrote:
Mosin wrote:I'm a troll or stupid because I disagree with you and some of the others here?
No, you're stupid because you'd happily risk the survival of the entire event because you're an inconsiderate, impatient asshole. =)
Gee, you really get into the labels/namecalling. That's unfortunate. Anyway, I don't think I am impatient or an asshole for disagreeing with those here who have articulated complex arguments in favor of kids at the Burn (something you have failed to do so far). In fact, if you actually read my posts, I have no problem with kids at the Burn as long as they receive equal status/treatment with everything else out there. People who I have a ton of respect for here (Eric, for example) might strongly disagree with me, but I doubt they will revert to twisting my argument(s) around and/or inane ad hominem statements as you have done. We'll see...
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Post by Kiro » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:55 pm

Well that's too bad, because you haven't said anything to suggest you are thinking about your own comments, let alone any of ours.

You haven't addressed my simple point that making exodus wait for a child to be found is preferable to a problem that endangers the future of the event. Until you respond to that with an indication you understand the seriousness of it, you are not actually engaging in your own conversation.

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Post by Kiro » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:11 am

- or perhaps you genuinely believe that a child's death or abduction is just another statistic and nothing especially bad would come of it?
Mosin wrote:But I guess that 5-6 hours would be worth it too, as long as the children are safe, right?
Yes, because we could come back next year. Feel free to ignore this and respond with frivolous shite about how dead kids won't be a big deal.

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Post by Mosin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:58 am

Kiro wrote:- or perhaps you genuinely believe that a child's death or abduction is just another statistic and nothing especially bad would come of it?
Mosin wrote:But I guess that 5-6 hours would be worth it too, as long as the children are safe, right?
Yes, because we could come back next year. Feel free to ignore this and respond with frivolous shite about how dead kids won't be a big deal.
:roll: In addition to googling "ad hominem attack", I suggest you also familiarize yourself with the term "straw man argument".

Of course a child's serious injury, abduction, or death would be a big deal, which is why--to get back to the actual point of the thread/poll--it is my opinion that children should not be allowed to attend the event. Others will disagree, and that is OK. Moreover, I am still better than your kids.
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Post by Kiro » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:37 am

Mosin wrote:Of course a child's serious injury, abduction, or death would be a big deal
Good, I'm glad we agree on that at least. Since kids always have and always will be welcomed at Burning Man, you therefore understand why there is absolutely no option but to shut the gate in such emergencies, and can understand why a response such as "But I guess that 5-6 hours would be worth it too, as long as the children are safe, right? I mean, Burning Man is all about the children, isn't it?" could come off as flippant, or callous. I'm sorry for passionately disagreeing with insulting words, but I found your approach to this topic extremely distasteful and willfully ignorant of the implications.
it is my opinion that children should not be allowed to attend the event.
Since it's been made crystal clear that will never, ever happen, it might be more productive to present your ideas to mitigate problems, rather than aggressively suggesting it is unfair to make people wait if a child is in danger. I mean really, I am not sure what kind of response you were expecting.

Also, after meeting so many thousands of burners, my tolerance for this forum has gone from small to practically zero, so I have been over reacting to practically everything. My temple burn and that of everyone around me was ruined by inconsiderate wankers and I didn't get the closure I needed, so I'm sorry for being heated. Maybe I'll take a hiatus from eplaya since I can't act like my normally more thoughtful self here, but I won't flee this conversation yet, I'd like to understand why you feel the way you do. I'd love to ban stupid parents, like I said earlier, I can't think of many things that could upset me more than kids in the desert who are burned and being dragged around by irresponsible parents, but since we can't ban stupidity, I'm not sure what there is left to do.

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Post by Kiro » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:57 am

- I suppose you could force all kids to be camped in Kidsville where there are more eyes watching out for them, but that kind of demand obviously goes against Burning Man's ethos.

As we were cleaning up other people's abandoned crap on Monday (of which there was tons), a young kid rode past us, screaming "I'm much fitter than you!" I shouted back, "Yeah but you'll be old one day too" and we shared a laugh. I can't think of many places a kid would feel safe enough to engage strangers like that, and it seems unfair to deprive them of it for the actions of a few bad parents.

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Post by Lassen Forge » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:04 am

Mosin wrote:... So, was Exodus held up while Ma and Pa Burner looked for little Johnny, or not?
Yes. Sucked. But losing a kid sucks.

When I was a dustrat, parents KNEW where their kids were, didn't let them vanish. It's not the kids fault they wander - fuck, they're KIDS. You parents - take responsibility for your brood, damnit.

And like Dougily up there (and now down there)... when I was a kid, we used to play with sharp things, and fire things and big machinery (well, a cat D4 with blocks on the pedals was for me HUGE when I was 6!!) and with the cool machines in Grampy's Garage. Learned how to run a drill press and lathe at 7, and a rock drill and set charges (and do it right) by the ripe age of 9. Hell - mom used to chase me out of the kitchen to help dad in the garage reloading shells or working on whatever vehicle he was working on... AFTER dinner!! (Yeah, did my share of cooking, too!!!)

Did I mention when I was 13 I was a competition skeet shooter?? Yeah, REAL guns (12 ga, none of this wimpy 410 for this girl!) with REAL shells. Um Hmmm.... when you AREN'T taught FEAR, then you learn Life.

And I am still alive, with all 10 fingers and toes and both ears and eyes and memories that last a lifetime - of how my folks not only loved me, but trusted me. Because they KNEW I was no idjit. Sure, I got nicked and burned and sprained my share of ankles and even a broken bone or 2... but I learned early NOT to fear shit.

Like the other bb said, BRC is an AWESOME place for kds - while we didn't have it when I was young, I still got to be in the desert when I was a young'un, and my BEST memories were from there. Camping. In the summer (it's what brought e home that first year!)

Pardon me if my low tolerance for asshole behavior alarm is going off... but (1) NOT bringing your kids to BRC sucks... and (2) NOT BEING A FUCKING PARENT AND BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR KIDS IS CRIMINAL. Dig? Bring your kids, but only if you're MATURE enough to be a parent.

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:26 am

There's no guarantee that every parent/guardian who brings a kid BRC will be intelligent and responsible, and if there's a kid lost, then his granny will sue if nobody else will.

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